V5 - Is it worth the cost?
Hey everyone,
I like to keep my logos up to date, but $255.06 seems over priced for an upgrade (silver). Give me the skinny; is this new version worth that much?
Thanks,
Mike
Comments
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I am a new Logos user, so my opinion may not mean much. From what I understand, there are several features that were enhanced from L4 to L5 such as the Clause Search and other tools that were not available in L4.
Based on what I have read, the only reason why many want to upgrade to L5 is because they are interested in the "new packages." So, if you are satisfied with your books, I hear there is "free" cross over to L5 coming in Feb.
Personally, I am happy with L5. I use the Mac version and seems to be pretty powerful tool. I am investing time to learning it (and I design software for a living). So, definitely, if you are into technology and efficiency, it may be worth it to you. Many LONG time users in the forum do not think its worth upgrading and are just waiting for the engine.
I hope this helps.
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Mike Parks said:
Hey everyone,
I like to keep my logos up to date, but $255.06 seems over priced for an upgrade (silver). Give me the skinny; is this new version worth that much?
Thanks,
MikeThere are multiple options available to you.
The cheapest is the free engine, which should be released sometime in the next few weeks or so. It won't include some of the new databases though.
The next option is the minimal crossgrade, which gives you all the new features and data sets, but no resources.
The next option is to upgrade your base package. In doing that, realize that the new base packages share the same name as previous ones, but that's about it (not the best move by Logos, and they acknowledged the mess-up). In doing that, know that only Gold and above has all the new datasets, but Silver is a pretty good place to be too. The way I always decide on an upgrade, which upgrade, or not to upgrade, is I look at what I don't have that I would get by upgrading to a particular base package. Then I consider only those resources I want and believe I'll use. If the upgrade cost is less than I'd pay for only those resources (and if my budget allows), I upgrade to that package.
I always recommend base package upgrades, because they are always the most cost effective ways to buy resources. Of course, that only matters, if the resources you get are resources you'll use. We each study & use Logos differently, so your decision will be uniquely yours in most ways.
FWIW, I am currently on L5 Platinum (upgraded from L4 Platinum). I was ready to settle for Gold, but some unexpected money came my way, and I went for Platinum. I'm very happy with my purchase.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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The "free" crossover sounds great! Glad you mentioned it, I didn’t know that was available.
I looked over the new books, while they look good, I am not personally sold on it.
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Mike Parks said:
The "free" crossover sounds great! Glad you mentioned it, I didn’t know that was available.
I looked over the new books, while they look good, I am not personally sold on it.
To be clear, the minimal crossgrade is not free (it's about $160). The free engine however, is coming out soon.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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That sounds great, I will wait it out [:D]
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Hi Mike. Keep in mind that the new data sets and a few resources are a part of the Minimal Crossgrade. I viewed the MC as what would be a typical program's upgrade, so $160 seemed pretty fair.
Hope you the best with your decision.
Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC
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Richard DeRuiter said:Mike Parks said:
The "free" crossover sounds great! Glad you mentioned it, I didn’t know that was available.
I looked over the new books, while they look good, I am not personally sold on it.
To be clear, the minimal crossgrade is not free (it's about $160). The free engine however, is coming out soon.
The Minimal Crossgrade is required to give the resources to receive the full benefits of the new L5 capabilities. An upgrade to L5 Silver or higher also gives you all the capabilities of the L5 features.
I have been very pleased with the enhanced capabilities of the L5 engine. I have found it to be well worth the $160. I upgraded from L4 Platinum to L5 Platinum to get the additional new titles in the new base package.
You can watch the Mark Barnes video to see a great demonstration of the major L5 enhancements.
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Edwin Bowden said:
An upgrade to L5 Silver or higher also gives you all the capabilities of the L5 features.
Silver does not contain quite all of them. Gold and above contains the Bible Sense tool, Silver does not. You can, however, upgrade to "Silver" and then buy the Bible Senses feature very cheaply.
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Rick said:Edwin Bowden said:
An upgrade to L5 Silver or higher also gives you all the capabilities of the L5 features.
Silver does not contain quite all of them. Gold and above contains the Bible Sense tool, Silver does not. You can, however, upgrade to "Silver" and then buy the Bible Senses feature very cheaply.
You are correct. I was having a senior moment. I knew it was Gold, but for some reason was thinking Silver at the moment.
Someone can upgrade to whatever base pkg they want. If it is less than Gold, they can upgrade with the MC and pay a customized price for only the additional datasets they are missing. Silver was lodged in my mind because many users upgraded to Silver and then were able to get the remaining datasets with a MC upgrade for only about $7.
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Dave Hooton said:
How?
It looks as if they have stopped selling it as a separate purchase. It used to be that you simply went to the upgrade page, hovered your mouse over the "Bible Sense Lexicon" and it gave a price (for me) of around $7 U.S. currency. If you hover over the books available in the packages it will say "Sold Separately" and give you a price. Bible Senses used to do that.
EDIT: I simply was not remembering how to do it correctly above. To get the Senses dataset in Logos Silver all that you have to do is purchase the Minimal Crossgrade.
Clcik on the "New to You" button and it will show that it is available.
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Edwin Bowden said:
I was having a senior moment.
I think that we all have those moments. In my post above I could not remember how to get the Senses tool into silver. [:D]
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Is it worth the cost? For me the minimal upgrade seemed reasonable. I looked at this cost as simply supporting Logos. There is a cost to developing and maintaining software. The Bible says "the laborer is worthy of his hire." (Luke 10:17 looked up the reference using the competitor Bible product, I really don't know how to do a simple, fast, efficient word and phrase search in L4 or L5 and I didn't want to wait while Logos was loading.)
There is a downside to having many volumes. I got the Platinum back with Logos 4 beta edition. In retrospect I wish I had not gotten so many volumes. Most I will never use and these extra books simply slow the program down. Because of this experience, I didn't give any attention to upgrading to the latest Platinum. It would simply add many more unused volumes to my library. Of course, I could weed out the unwanted volumes, but that would take a lot of time. So I just leave it alone.
Each edition of Logos contains "bells and whistles" of marginal use for most people. I think the Senses tool is in this category. I tried it when I first got L5, but it reproducibly crashed the program. So I learned to avoid it. I just tried it again to see if it is working and the program didn't crash. I am glad to see it working, but I doubt I will use it much.
There are so many little and big features in the program--if you know the how to use them. But things that I use seldom I generally don't even remember are available. The steps necessary to utilize these feature are usually forgotten. Then I can't remember how to do it or even where to find the directions for how to do it.
This is a very feature rich program, though there are a lot of features that will be used by just a few. Sometimes Logos seems to have feature bloat. You may want to simply continue L4 until the free L5 becomes available. The longer you wait the more stable the program becomes. Let the other users be the beta testers.
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Phil Mills said:
The Bible says "the laborer is worthy of his hire." (Luke 10:17 looked up the reference using the competitor Bible product, I really don't know how to do a simple, fast, efficient word and phrase search in L4 or L5
FYI:
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I am very pleased with the upgrade! I particularly like the added wealth of info at your fingertips through the additions to the passage guide and the new topic guide which include sermon outlines, Themes and Thematic outlines.
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Thanks Graham.
It's not that I don't know how to do that search, it is that the process is not simple, fast, and efficient.
In my opinion, in an effort to do everything, Logos makes it necessary to go through too many steps for a simply search. First, I have to start the program which means waiting for 45 secs (I just timed it) to get a blank screen up (much longer if it is not a blank screen, or if it is downloading updates, then indexing). Then I need to click on the search tool, then set the parameters of the search, and then type in the phrase including the quote marks. I can't do a simple search like this in under a minute. I can't leave Logos running in the background because it is too resource hogging.
For comparison I just timed this same search in the competitive program. The competitive program took only 3 secs to load! I then typed in the phrase without the quotes marks and the entire process took 6 secs.
Since simple searches is my primary use of a Bible program, I never do Bible searches in Logos. Why bother? It is simply not an efficient use of my time.
As I've said in the past, for me, Logos is really my Bible commentary study tool. The competitive program is the more efficient Bible study tool.
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Hi Phil
Phil Mills said:It's not that I don't know how to do that search, it is that the process is not simple, fast, and efficient.
Sorry - I misunderstood.
As I tend to have Logos open all the time, running a search like this works fine for me. I understand if you need to load Logos first that is a different story!
Graham
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That is a great point Phil. I actually use google when searching for a verse because a lot of times I will know a portion of the verse knowing I might have a word or two messed up and google always finds the right reference. I will do that search in google even with logos open.
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Xegesis said:
That is a great point Phil. I actually use google when searching for a verse because a lot of times I will know a portion of the verse knowing I might have a word or two messed up and google always finds the right reference. I will do that search in google even with logos open.
The amazing thing to me is that Bob, the owner of Logos, and the final authority, doesn't even see this as a problem. The reality is that without this quick search capability (either to quickly enter a reference, word, or phrase) I don't use the program more than occasionally, then find it cumbersome to use because I'm not using it all the time. This works as a vicious cycle.
This then makes me feel "guilty" for having spent all this money on something that I only occasionally use. I think it has cost me more than $30 per search, for the times I have used it! I probably don't use it once a month. Perhaps it is because I was conditioned not to use it. I was oversold the program when it came out as a beta and spent hundreds of dollars for Logos4 that was unusable (no print, no copy, no stability). So I got used to reading the forum's and not using the program except when I had to. That pretty much has not changed.
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Sometimes I think that all I have for my investment in Logos is a really expensive e-book reader...sort of like a premium De Soto.
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The L4 to L5 upgrade is miss-leading, it tells me I do not own books that I already have in my Library…..
Since it is miss-leading I see no advantage other than the minimum, even that is miss-leading in itself, so I recommend calling your sales rep and getting it straight before you BUY anything……
DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.
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I just crossed over - not to the other side you understand aka John Edwards, but to L5. It cost me just over a hundred dollars and couldn't be happier. After doing some research to see if it was worth it I took the leap. Logos has a decent short video on it. Mark Barnes has a good and worthwhile video. Watch that one to give you a better idea.
I didn't need any of the books that were offered in a package so I opted for the minimal crossgrade. For the price it was well worth it. IMHO.
By the way, I think the free upgrade that ppl have been talking about does not have all the datasets that come with the minimal crossgrade.
So if you're on the fence? Jump. The grass is greener on the other side.
mm.
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Room4more said:
The L4 to L5 upgrade is miss-leading, it tells me I do not own books that I already have in my Library…..
Can you provide some specific examples?
All the reports I have seen on this suggest that the upgrade calculator is pretty accurate.
Graham
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Milkman said:
By the way, I think the free upgrade that ppl have been talking about does not have all the datasets that come with the minimal crossgrade.
Correct - it doesn't have any of the new datasets.
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Graham Criddle said:Room4more said:
The L4 to L5 upgrade is miss-leading, it tells me I do not own books that I already have in my Library…..
Can you provide some specific examples?
All the reports I have seen on this suggest that the upgrade calculator is pretty accurate.
Graham
Sure: It states that I do not own the Lexham Bible Dictionary. tut tut - i have had it since it came out.......Why would I want to "minimum crossgrade" a resource I already own - ?
So I will call Sales and get that off the list and start to reduce the price--dun it before and will continue to do it....
DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.
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Room4more said:
The L4 to L5 upgrade is miss-leading, it tells me I do not own books that I already have in my Library…..
On the Logos upgrade page => http://www.logos.com/upgrade can hover mouse over title for a pop-up that shows how many resources are owned. The "New to You" indicator appears if 1 or more resource(s) in a collection OR series would be added.
The upgrade page showed New American Commentary (NAC) series would be new, after upgrading to Logos 5 Portfolio, noticed one NAC volume had been added.
Personally choose Logos 5 Portfolio upgrade since the delta increase from Diamond to Portfolio was less than 10 % of the regular combined prices for many resources, which were on my wish list. Overall upgrade price was less than Portfolio wish list items.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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I think the Clause search alone is worth going to Logos 5. I'm actually new to Logos and the clause search is what sold me to finally come on over from e-sword. I'm very happy with my purchase. I just wish I knew I could have bought a lesser package than silver and then purchased the minimal cross grade. I called customer service before I made the purchase and they told me there was no way for me to do that. They were obviously misinformed.
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Room4more said:
The L4 to L5 upgrade is miss-leading, it tells me I do not own books that I already have in my Library…..
On the Logos upgrade page => http://www.logos.com/upgrade can hover mouse over title for a pop-up that shows how many resources are owned. The "New to You" indicator appears if 1 or more resource(s) in a collection OR series would be added.
The upgrade page showed New American Commentary (NAC) series would be new, after upgrading to Logos 5 Portfolio, noticed one NAC volume had been added.
Personally choose Logos 5 Portfolio upgrade since the delta increase from Diamond to Portfolio was less than 10 % of the regular combined prices for many resources, which were on my wish list. Overall upgrade price was less than Portfolio wish list items.
Keep Smiling
That may be true in some cases, but I do not want all the 'junk' books, others may but then thats their choice.......[I still prefer my hard copy's from time to time].I did the 'upgrade' via email so I consider the link fairly accurate - well it should be.
With all the emails that L-HQ has sent I would think that by now it would be right, the latest and greatest still is "inaccurate"....
DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.
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"Those were the days, my friend, we thought they'd never end ...".
The more I watch this, the more I get the feeling that 'marketing' isn't familiar with web development? Maybe they do pasteups like a newspaper or something, and then give it to a guy/gal that's supposed to say 'Yes sir!' (or Maam as the case may be.) I can't believe their web coders are on board. But I'm fully prepared for their Logos6 effort after watching Logos4 and 5. Maybe a greek helmet!
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Besides:
I am still wanting the book that I purchased way back in March 2012 - when am I gonna get that? did they forget their obligations?
DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.
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I am low waged, and went for Minimal Crossgrade, but I would have gone platinum if funds allowed
I paid $159 I think, and feel its worth every cent
Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have
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Room4more said:
Sure: It states that I do not own the Lexham Bible Dictionary. tut tut - i have had it since it came out......
Interesting - when I look at the upgrade page it shows it is new to Logos 5 as shown
Can you post a screenshot showing what you see?
Thanks, Graham
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Graham Criddle said:Room4more said:
Sure: It states that I do not own the Lexham Bible Dictionary. tut tut - i have had it since it came out......
Interesting - when I look at the upgrade page it shows it is new to Logos 5 as shown
Can you post a screenshot showing what you see?
Thanks, Graham
Yes, I could.But then that would be redundant, I already said I have it. Why would I lie?
And Yes I do understnad what the "symbology" is........
Thanks for asking.
[we are getting there, the price standing is now $116$. - can you better that? still waiting for the others to get there....]
DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.
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Room4more said:
But then that would be redundant, I already said I have it. Why would I lie?
Apologies - I wasn't intending any implication, just trying to understand what was going on.
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And thinking about this a little more.
the fact that the upgrade page shows this is new to L5 suggests it is an updated version.
so it would always show as "new to you" for anyone who hadn't upgraded as they wouldn't have this updatd version.
Just speculation but might explain this
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Graham Criddle said:Room4more said:
But then that would be redundant, I already said I have it. Why would I lie?
Apologies - I wasn't intending any implication, just trying to understand what was going on.
Seems pretty cut and dry to me:
Tells me I can "re-purchase" what i already own. But as we go along things are getting straightened out......
{{edit: BUT I AM UPDATED! SO that point is moot...but thanks for the advise...}}
DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.
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Thanks everyone for the varying responses to my original question.
After reading through the replies, I was reminded how one spark can ignite much talk [;)] Everyone has collectively helped me make a decision, I have decided to remain on V4.
Thanks again!
Mike
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Mike Parks said:
Thanks everyone for the varying responses to my original question.
After reading through the replies, I was reminded how one spark can ignite much talk
Everyone has collectively helped me make a decision, I have decided to remain on V4.Thanks again!
Mike
I suggest that you spend some time looking over the various 'up'-grades. compare to what you alreardy have, then call sales with what you would 'like' and see what sort of arrangement can be made. The data set are valuable for sure....
I.E.: you have all but one Lexham collection, but you have to get the forth upgrade to get it but then many 'unwanteds' are there as well, why not go for the minimum and call your sales rep requesting this one missing collection be replaced with what the minimum says you DO NOT OWN when in reality you do. they will look to see if you really do and if you do --well it never hurts to ask and you may kick yourself later for not asking ........ we do not have because we do not ask.
Hope this helps.....
DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.
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Room4more said:
It states that I do not own the Lexham Bible Dictionary. tut tut - i have had it since it came out
I'd personally prefer you showed us a screenshot, because the dynamic pricing algorithm and its correct retrieval of the licences is of eminent importance.
Room4more said: it tells me I do not own books that I already have in my Library
IIRC, so far all claims in the forum to such a bug have been proven incorrect, so you can really be a first here!
Have joy in the Lord!
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Xegesis said:
I just wish I knew I could have bought a lesser package than silver and then purchased the minimal cross grade. I called customer service before I made the purchase and they told me there was no way for me to do that. They were obviously misinformed.
if you bought Logos less than a month ago, get a refund, then buy it as above. Otherwise, I would call the company and they generally will make it right. They try to be reasonable.
Or if you are happy, stay happy and don't do anything.
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NB.Mick said:Room4more said:
It states that I do not own the Lexham Bible Dictionary. tut tut - i have had it since it came out
I'd personally prefer you showed us a screenshot, because the dynamic pricing algorithm and its correct retrieval of the licences is of eminent importance.
Room4more said:
it tells me I do not own books that I already have in my Library
IIRC, so far all claims in the forum to such a bug have been proven incorrect, so you can really be a first here!
So what you are really saying is that I am a liar. Right?
AND, if you read instead of skimmed, you would also know that I said other things as well.....by the way which "upgrade" was I referring to?
DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.
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Your upgrade price is based on your current library, so you only pay for new features and books. Upgrade now to get a powerful Logos 5 base package at your own low price.
http://www.screencast.com/t/qb7PyuIu
This is too easy:
now you have to purchase an upgrade to get the new stuff of L5 and the resource(s) IS/ARE part of the ‘upgrade’ of the L5 version, but I already have the resource-correct?
If we agree that this is correct then you are "RE-PURCHASING" WHAT YOU ALREADY HAVE. If you disagree then you do not understand the process. Now if you claim that this is a “newer version” then the L4 updater has failed, but understanding the symbology, it starts “new to L5’ which to me means that I am “RE-PURCHASING” WHAT I ALREADY HAVE……Since these/those resources I already own but are ALSO incorporated into the upgrade price.....
DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.
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Room4more said:
Your upgrade price is based on your current library, so you only pay for new features and books. Upgrade now to get a powerful Logos 5 base package at your own low price.
http://www.screencast.com/t/qb7PyuIu
This is too easy:
now you have to purchase an upgrade to get the new stuff of L5 and the resource(s) IS/ARE part of the ‘upgrade’ of the L5 version, but I already have the resource-correct?
If we agree that this is correct then you are "RE-PURCHASING" WHAT YOU ALREADY HAVE. If you disagree then you do not understand the process. Now if you claim that this is a “newer version” then the L4 updater has failed, but understanding the symbology, it starts “new to L5’ which to me means that I am “RE-PURCHASING” WHAT I ALREADY HAVE……Since these/those resources I already own but are ALSO incorporated into the upgrade price.....
The graphic that you post above show that the Faithlife Study Bible are new to version 5, but since there's not a little icon with a person in it, it knows you have it.
See the graphic below for full explanation;
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Richard DeRuiter said:
The graphic that you post above show that the Faithlife Study Bible are new to version 5, but since there's not a little icon with a person in it, it knows you have it.
See the graphic below for full explanation;
AND the black dots indicate that it IS part of the upgrade......which means that the pricing reflects these resources.....
I have Targums, they have the black dot, they are included in the resources of another choice, AND ARE part of the price, again I would be purchasing what I already own......
DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.
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Room4more said:
AND the black dots indicate that it IS part of the upgrade.
No.
The black dots tell you it is part of the base package you are viewing/comparing. The only thing that tells you if Logos believes you have it is the little circle icon with the 'person' in it.
In other words, in my graphic, I own the Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics, it is new to L5, included in both packages I was comparing, but I won't be charged for it.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Room4more said:
AND the black dots indicate that it IS part of the upgrade
yes, all the black dots are part of the respective package(s) you selected - however, you pay for those resources and databases that are new to you i.e. have the icon with the person in it (or the questionmark, if you only own part of a multi-volume resource). For decision-making, the first thing I do is to filter the comparison page by clicking "new to you" (red box)
Then the page shows me that if I upgraded to Platinum, I'd get the "Analytical Key..." and the "Sahidic Coptic Collection" and the Book of Enoch from the ancient texts in the first two sections. I won't get the "OT Greek Pseudepigrapha" or the "Ugaritic Library" since they are not part of Platinum (no dots). All other Ancient Text resources I already own.
The small (5) just tells that The Book of Enoch is new to L5 and was not part of an L4 Base Package, but this isn't relevant for buying or not.
Have joy in the Lord!
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Richard DeRuiter said:Room4more said:
AND the black dots indicate that it IS part of the upgrade.
No.
The black dots tell you it is part of the base package you are viewing/comparing. The only thing that tells you if Logos believes you have it is the little circle icon with the 'person' in it.
In other words, in my graphic, I own the Baker Encyclopedia of Christian Apologetics, it is new to L5, included in both packages I was comparing, but I won't be charged for it.
I think that the highlighted underscored italics in your reply above indicates to me that you really do not know.......
DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.
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NB.Mick said:Room4more said:
AND the black dots indicate that it IS part of the upgrade
yes, all the black dots are part of the respective package(s) you selected - however, you pay for those resources and databases that are new to you i.e. have the icon with the person in it (or the questionmark, if you only own part of a multi-volume resource). For decision-making, the first thing I do is to filter the comparison page by clicking "new to you" (red box)
Then the page shows me that if I upgraded to Platinum, I'd get the "Analytical Key..." and the "Sahidic Coptic Collection" and the Book of Enoch from the ancient texts in the first two sections. I won't get the "OT Greek Pseudepigrapha" or the "Ugaritic Library" since they are not part of Platinum (no dots). All other Ancient Text resources I already own.
The small (5) just tells that The Book of Enoch is new to L5 and was not part of an L4 Base Package, but this isn't relevant for buying or not.
WOW! i am such a newbie, i never would have figured that out on my own, good thing I know how to read.......[hint], i wrote three different reply's but deleted them, basically i just know what to say without being sarcastic...
so, sorry if this seems sarcastic.
DISCLAIMER: What you do on YOUR computer is your doing.
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Logos has a Blog article about their custom upgrade discount calculator => http://blog.logos.com/2012/11/how-to-get-a-custom-discount-on-logos-5/
Another Blog article has 5 ways to move to Logos 5 => http://blog.logos.com/2012/11/5-ways-to-move-to-logos-5/ that includes:
So rest assured that when you move to Logos 5, you bring all of your existing library of books along with you, for free—and you benefit from the advances we’ve made by adding new tagging. Once you buy books, they’re yours for life. And they just keep getting better, with no additional cost to you.
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Logos has a Blog article about their custom upgrade discount calculator => http://blog.logos.com/2012/11/how-to-get-a-custom-discount-on-logos-5/
Another Blog article has 5 ways to move to Logos 5 => http://blog.logos.com/2012/11/5-ways-to-move-to-logos-5/ that includes:
So rest assured that when you move to Logos 5, you bring all of your existing library of books along with you, for free—and you benefit from the advances we’ve made by adding new tagging. Once you buy books, they’re yours for life. And they just keep getting better, with no additional cost to you.
Keep Smiling
You are absolutely right!!!
so there should be no "re-purchasing" involved - the price should reflect only those NEW books and NEW data sets associated with L5 and the NEW books...but the most interesting and fascinating thing thru this whole discourse is that NO ONE has proved this wrong, even those that seemingly have made the change and can comment so highly in this reagrds:
Anyone-?
[time has run out i need to catch a plane]
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said:
