Page Numbers Missing from Resources

I just purchased J. Alec Motyer's commentary on Isaiah.

I was surprised to find that there is no visual filter or index for page numbers.

This is a big problem for me because it renders this resource unusable for writing since I can't refer to it without page numbers. I will have to consult a copy of the print edition to find the appropriate page numbers.

I have a few questions and a suggestion.

Questions

What is the rationale for whether or not a resource has page numbers? Is it a decision that is driven by a publisher or Logos? Why do some resources have them and some not? Will resources that currently do not have page indexes be updated at some point to include them? Specifically will Motyer's commentary be updated with page numbers?

Suggestion

I think the product page for a resource should include a listing of its available indexes. It is problematic to not know whether or not page numbers are included with a resource before purchase.

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Comments

Allen Browne

I just purchased J. Alec Motyer's commentary on Isaiah.

I was surprised to find that there is no visual filter or index for page numbers.

Someone from Logos may be able to answer your questions about the basis for and future updates for page numbers.

But in the mean time, what I do with this one (and other commentaries) is to refer to the section. For example, "In Motyer's commentary on Isa 40:1-2, ..." That's sufficient to accurately identify your source IMHO.

Russ Quinn

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50682#Comment_50682

But in the mean time, what I do with this one (and other commentaries) is to refer to the section. For example, "In Motyer's commentary on Isa 40:1-2, ..." That's sufficient to accurately identify your source IMHO.

Thanks for the suggestion. Unfortunately the style guide for my dissertation requires page numbers.

Jeremy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50688#Comment_50688

There is a way around this, at least in Logos 3, if the book had no page numbers (I think the IVP OT Bible Background Commentary didn't have them). Cut and paste a quote or some material from the book into Word. Make sure that footnote copying is turned out. When Logos automatically includes the footnote, it should include the page number even if it doesn't come up in the visual filter.

Russ Quinn

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50693#Comment_50693

There is a way around this, at least in Logos 3, if the book had no page numbers (I think the IVP OT Bible Background Commentary didn't have them). Cut and paste a quote or some material from the book into Word. Make sure that footnote copying is turned out. When Logos automatically includes the footnote, it should include the page number even if it doesn't come up in the visual filter.

Visual filters and footnotes with quoted passages both depend on whether or not the resource is indexed by page numbers.

The problem with Motyer's commentary as well as the IVP commentary (the New Dictionary of Biblical Theology is another one that I use a lot) is that they don't have the page number index. There simply is no page number information in these resources that can accessed in any way.

Jeremy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50708#Comment_50708

Hmmmm....you are right. I just tried this with the IVP OT Bible Background Commentary. And my fabulous suggestion didn't work.

Rich DeRuiter

This is a big problem for me because it renders this resource unusable for writing since I can't refer to it without page numbers. I will have to consult a copy of the print edition to find the appropriate page numbers.

Citation protocols: Are you sure you have to include page numbers? The standard citation formats (MLA, Chicago, Turabian, etc.) all include protocols for citing electronic works, that don't require page numbers (I've done this for DMin level work with Logos resources). So unless your institution requires a non-standard format here, you should be good to go. If there's a question, check with someone who can speak about such standards at your institution. Many assume page numbers are required for citations for scholarly papers, when in fact they aren't (according to the standard citation formats, at least).

Explanation: page numbers were not possible in earlier versions of Logos. We started to see them in version 3, I don't remember seeing them in versions 2 or earlier (but I could be wrong). So it's possible publishers like IVP still don't routinely insert them, or that those who worked on this book for IVP didn't.

Caveat: most Logos works don't include page numbers - especially stuff that's been around a while. And though Logos is beginning to put them in, there's no way to count on any resource having them. (I wouldn't be opposed, of course, to Logos publishing this material along side it's other information about resources it sells.)

Jeremy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50728#Comment_50728

I never cited electronic works for my MDiv, even if I used them. I always cited the regular version. I have seen digital books only cited once in scholarly publications.

Russ Quinn

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50728#Comment_50728

[Citation protocols: Are you sure you have to include page numbers? The standard citation formats (MLA, Chicago, Turabian, etc.) all include protocols for citing electronic works, that don't require page numbers (I've done this for DMin level work with Logos resources). So unless your institution requires a non-standard format here, you should be good to go. If there's a question, check with someone who can speak about such standards at your institution. Many assume page numbers are required for citations for scholarly papers, when in fact they aren't (according to the standard citation formats, at least).

Our style manual is basically modified Turabian. After digging a bit, the style manual provides for using other divisions than page numbers if electronic resources do not provide them. The example for a commentary uses versification. It is unclear how to reference something that is not part of the commentary proper.

This looks like it will be less than helpful though and might create more problems as it goes through my committee. This is a PhD dissertation.

I've submitted the question to our style reader who has to give final approval but I think it might be better to stick to the paper edition.

most Logos works don't include page numbers

I'm sure we would need more information to answer this conclusively. I would have said the opposite. In my experience, most works have included page numbers (especially the more scholarly works like lexicons, grammars, commentaries and monographs). That is why I purchased this resource with that expectation.

I still think it would be better for Logos to state whether or not a resource includes this information on its purchase page.

Jeremy

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50769#Comment_50769

Do you have access to the hard copy?

Russ Quinn

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50771#Comment_50771

Do you have access to the hard copy?

Yes. Blessed with access to physical copy.

This is not that big of a deal.

Just a little regret that I purchased the electronic copy for my immediate purpose.

I'm sure it will come in handy down the road for sermon prep and other things.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50789#Comment_50789

Lots of the IVP resources have missing page numbers, and have for years. It's very frustrating. In the meantime, if you have your quote, then Google Books is your friend for page numbers.

Russ Quinn

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50793#Comment_50793

In the meantime, if you have your quote, then Google Books is your friend for page numbers.

Alas, no preview pages are available. Besides the work I purchased is Motyer's standalone volume from 1993. It is a different edition than the Tyndale series.

Russ Quinn

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50798#Comment_50798

Just curious . . .

I've been thinking about purchasing NICOT/NICNT sometime in the near future.

Can anyone confirm whether or not they have page number indexes?

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50808#Comment_50808

Just curious . . .

I've been thinking about purchasing NICOT/NICNT sometime in the near future.

Can anyone confirm whether or not they have page number indexes?

I can tell you that my NICNT - Ephesians volume does have page numbers. I checked a few other books at random and they seem to as well. It's my assumption that this series does have page numbers, since some resources do, and since this was recently released.

Jacob Hantla

I know of no style guide that doesn't allow alternate citation models for digital resources that do not contain page numbers.

Mike Measley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50808#Comment_50808

I just checked, NIC has page numbers which can be viewed using the Visual Filter.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50798#Comment_50798

Alas, no preview pages are available. Besides the work I purchased is Motyer's standalone volume from 1993. It is a different edition than the Tyndale series.

Snippet view is quite adequate for determining page numbers from a quote. You don't need to read the whole page - after all, you already know what it says! Your edition of Motyer is no doubt this one.

Russ Quinn

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50823#Comment_50823

Snippet view is quite adequate for determining page numbers from a quote. You don't need to read the whole page - after all, you already know what it says! Your edition of Motyer is no doubt this one.

Mark,

That is the correct one! Thanks for that. I was not familiar with the Snippet view. I've only used previews on Google Books.

However, it does take a bit of faith to use the Snippet view as the snippet it displays does not necessarily contain the search results.

Nevertheless, an appreciated addition to my notation arsenal.

Thanks for everyone's help and suggestions.

Russ Quinn

This is a big problem for me because it renders this resource unusable for writing since I can't refer to it without page numbers. I will have to consult a copy of the print edition to find the appropriate page numbers.

Just for the record, saying the resource is unusable was an overstatement on my part.

At Richard's encouragement, I discovered that it is technically legal to quote an electronic resource without page numbers per the style guide governing my dissertation. So this is a matter of preference. I find using page numbers more helpful than not so I will probably do the extra work.

Mark's helpful suggestion of using the Snippet view of Google Books provided a way to cite page numbers without consulting the physical copy (although I will surely double check them before I submit the final draft!).

However, I still think customer would be better served if whatever indexes a resource contains were disclosed on its purchase page.

Phil Gons (Logos)

I just purchased J. Alec Motyer's commentary on Isaiah.

I was surprised to find that there is no visual filter or index for page numbers.

This is a big problem for me because it renders this resource unusable for writing since I can't refer to it without page numbers. I will have to consult a copy of the print edition to find the appropriate page numbers.

I have a few questions and a suggestion.

Questions

What is the rationale for whether or not a resource has page numbers? Is it a decision that is driven by a publisher or Logos? Why do some resources have them and some not? Will resources that currently do not have page indexes be updated at some point to include them? Specifically will Motyer's commentary be updated with page numbers?

Suggestion

I think the product page for a resource should include a listing of its available indexes. It is problematic to not know whether or not page numbers are included with a resource before purchase.

I think Motyer's commentary has been in our format since LLS when we didn't include page numbers, and we haven't yet updated it. We do our best to include page numbers in as many resources as possible now, and we're working to add them to books like Motyer's as we update them into .logos4 format.

If you come across books like this and would like to see pagination added, please make sure to add them to the list at http://wiki.logos.com/Books_Missing_Pagination.

Thanks for your suggestion. We'll look into adding a note to product pages missing pagination.

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50835#Comment_50835

and we're working to add them to books like Motyer's as we update them into .logos4 format.

Thanks for your suggestion. We'll look into adding a note to product pages missing pagination.

Thanks for the update and as always, for listening. Hope the new little one is doing well!

Russ Quinn

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50835#Comment_50835

Phil,

Thanks for the feedback. Glad to hear that Logos wants to add page numbers in the update process.

Will certainly use the list on the Wiki for other books.

Ward Walker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50835#Comment_50835

If you come across books like this and would like to see pagination added, please make sure to add them to the list at http://wiki.logos.com/Books_Missing_Pagination.

Thanks for your suggestion. We'll look into adding a note to product pages missing pagination.

This Wiki cross-reference was very helpful, and I appreciate Logos' intention to retroactively update references with page numbers--I didn't realize that they didn't have them until I tried to create a reading plan for Christian History Magazine. [:'(]

That said, it would be nice to be able to quickly determine how many pages were in a resource by viewing the "i"nformation for it...knowing how long something is helps me when deciding what reading pace I'd need to be on.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50831#Comment_50831

This is a big problem for me because it renders this resource unusable for writing since I can't refer to it without page numbers. I will have to consult a copy of the print edition to find the appropriate page numbers.

At Richard's encouragement, I discovered that it is technically legal to quote an electronic resource without page numbers per the style guide governing my dissertation. So this is a matter of preference. I find using page numbers more helpful than not so I will probably do the extra work.

Mark's helpful suggestion of using the Snippet view of Google Books provided a way to cite page numbers without consulting the physical copy (although I will surely double check them before I submit the final draft!).

However, I still think customer would be better served if whatever indexes a resource contains were disclosed on its purchase page.

I agree, the page number index should be there.

I suspect that in the coming decade or so, citing of page numbers from hard copy versions of digital resources will become less and less of the de rigeur thing to do in dissertations, as people following up on someone's research will have more and more access to online versions of the books cited. I envision libraries being almost entirely online by 2020. We're so far along towards that already. It's mostly legal and economic fairness barriers keeping us from going all the way. But those can be solved with technology, too. I can envision some kind of user ID gateway with a subscription-based system. Meanwhile, Google and Logos and others keep on scanning more and more books, in preparation for the day when we'll all be able to buy an annual subscription to access the entire contents of every single book and every issue of every journal indexed by WorldCat.org. World Libary Online! That'll be awesome!

Alain Maashe

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50831#Comment_50831

For my dissertation, I am not taking chances with my commitee (I personally do not like references without page numbers), if the print edition has page numbers, I will need to include page numbers (I paid to upgrade many of the Pradis academic resources just to get the page number, I was not happy about it but I had no choice).

Accurate page numbers should be a given especially when the print edition has them. Many of those works are used for academic pupose where proper citation is a must.

I remember Harold Hoehner telling us in class not to use electronic versions of print books for the dissertation, now I am starting to think that he had a point there (or that we should at least double check with the print version).

Alain

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/50835#Comment_50835

Does anyone from Logos have an update on progress regarding adding page numbers to resources missing them? I found the updated link for the Wiki page (i.e, http://wiki.logos.com/Books_Missing_Pagination_and_Other_Indexes; cf. http://community.logos.com/forums/p/12899/100175.aspx#100175 ), but there is no indication on the wiki regarding a projected update schedule, etc.

In my case I need the page numbers for the books in the Van Til library. Others have expressed the need for page numbers too. Cf. http://community.logos.com/forums/t/12899.aspx; http://community.logos.com/forums/p/13376/103490.aspx#103490. Several of us are looking forward to the update.

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135435#Comment_135435

Does anyone from Logos have an update on progress regarding adding page numbers to resources missing them? I found the updated link for the Wiki page (i.e, http://wiki.logos.com/Books_Missing_Pagination_and_Other_Indexes; cf. http://community.logos.com/forums/p/12899/100175.aspx#100175 ), but there is no indication on the wiki regarding a projected update schedule, etc.

In my case I need the page numbers for the books in the Van Til library. Others have expressed the need for page numbers too. Cf. http://community.logos.com/forums/t/12899.aspx; http://community.logos.com/forums/p/13376/103490.aspx#103490. Several of us are looking forward to the update.

Not to suggest that Logos not work on this, but it may not be as necessary as you think.

In the meantime, you can either check with your institution's policies on citing from electronic works (all the schema for academic research (Turabian, Chicago Manual, MLA, etc) have standards for such citations). Check with your professor, or faculty advisor about the standards for your institution. I have cited theological works without page numbers for D.Min. classes without any prof raising an eyebrow. I just followed the manual (Turabian, in my case). These days, so many seminary and religion prof's have Logos, that it's no big deal for them to check your source without a page number (if they would even bother).

Alternatively, you could go to a paper library with your lap top and find all the page references. But before you do that, try the above first.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135442#Comment_135442

In my case (and in others noted above) page numbers are a necessity.

Rob Y

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/135442#Comment_135442

Well our Director of Undergraduate studies wants page numbers! So two years on is this going to be fixed. I think I am going to regret my very recent purchase and upgrade to 5!

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/418260#Comment_418260

Well our Director of Undergraduate studies wants page numbers! So two years on is this going to be fixed. I think I am going to regret my very recent purchase and upgrade to 5!

Which resources are you missing page numbers from? Nearly all of the L5 resources have page numbers.

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/418260#Comment_418260

Well our Director of Undergraduate studies wants page numbers! So two years on is this going to be fixed.

Welcome to the forums.

This is not an issue that can be fixed in the software. It is something that has to be added to each individual book, and they sell an awful lot of books. They update books all the time, but it will take a while before they're through them all. Perhaps if you list what books are important to you, they might put them higher on their to do list.

Phil Gons (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/418260#Comment_418260

Well our Director of Undergraduate studies wants page numbers! So two years on is this going to be fixed. I think I am going to regret my very recent purchase and upgrade to 5!

Any particular resources that you'd like to see page numbers in soon? I'd be happy to elevate them and get them worked on soon.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/419573#Comment_419573

Well our Director of Undergraduate studies wants page numbers! So two years on is this going to be fixed. I think I am going to regret my very recent purchase and upgrade to 5!

Any particular resources that you'd like to see page numbers in soon? I'd be happy to elevate them and get them worked on soon.

I've just found a whole bunch of books that people had complained about in the forums as not having page numbers. I've added them to http://wiki.logos.com/Books_Missing_Pagination. There were some more but they were ones that I don't have in my library to confirm whether the problem has been fixed since it was reported. But a simple search for "no page numbers" site:community.logos.com will find all the complaints for you, Phil.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/419573#Comment_419573

Any particular resources that you'd like to see page numbers in soon? I'd be happy to elevate them and get them worked on soon.

The most important would be those most likely to be used in academia, particularly the Dictionary of New Testament Background and New Dictionary of Biblical Theology. The Complete Works of Francis Schaeffer and The Prophecy of Isaiah by Alec Motyer would also be nice.

Allen Browne

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/420579#Comment_420579

... particularly the Dictionary of ...

Actually, all the IVP dictionaries are important, including the 2 Mark mentioned andMartin, Ralph P. and Peter H. Davids. Dictionary of the Later New Testament and Its Developments. electronic ed. Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2000.

The Dictionary of New Testament Background is particularly confusing.
It offers Show Page Numbers as a filter option, but does not display page numbers.

And if you type "Page 99" into the go box (where "Hebrew Bible" shows above), it actually goes to page 99 of Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/420613#Comment_420613

The Dictionary of New Testament Background is particularly confusing.
It offers Show Page Numbers as a filter option, but does not display page numbers.

And if you type "Page 99" into the go box (where "Hebrew Bible" shows above), it actually goes to page 99 of Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels.

That is odd. It does not actually have a Page index listed:

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/420613#Comment_420613

... particularly the Dictionary of ...

Actually, all the IVP dictionaries are important, including the 2 Mark mentioned andMartin, Ralph P. and Peter H. Davids. Dictionary of the Later New Testament and Its Developments. electronic ed. Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2000.

Just curious: why would it be most important to cite dictionaries (of all works!) by page number?

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/420545#Comment_420545

I've just found a whole bunch of books that people had complained about in the forums as not having page numbers. I've added them to http://wiki.logos.com/Books_Missing_Pagination.

I just realized there are TWO pages on the wiki that list books missing pagination. There's that one and also http://wiki.logos.com/Books_Missing_Pagination_and_Other_Indexes#Books_Missing_Page_Numbers

I have merged these pages and left only the latter (since it was much fuller and better organized).

There are a number of high priority books in that list, ones that are likely to be used in research papers and cited.

All the commentaries (they are scattered around in multiple sections)
Bonhoeffer: Pastor, Martyr, Prophet, Spy – Eric Metaxas
Concise Theology: A Guide to Historic Christian Beliefs – J. I. Packer
History of Israel – John Bright
John Calvin: A Pilgrim’s Life – Herman Selderhuis
Institutes of the Christian Religion – John Calvin
A Quest for Godliness; JI Packer
Sermons on Several Occasions – John Wesley
A Treatise Concerning Religious Affections – Jonathan Edwards (standalone book, not Edwards ‘Works’)
The Works of Josephus: New Updated Edition
Perhaps the van Til books

I agree with NB.Mick that dictionaries aren't as crucial since people don't generally cite them by page number.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/420623#Comment_420623

Just curious: why would it be most important to cite dictionaries (of all works!) by page number?

Because that's what the SBL style-guide says we should do! Frankly, why would you not? Some dictionary articles are longer than book chapters and journal articles and nearly everyone cites the page numbers there.

See http://www.jbu.edu/assets/library/resource/file/SBLQuickReference.pdf

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/420634#Comment_420634

There are a number of high priority books in that list, ones that are likely to be used in research papers and cited.

I'm not convinced that list represents the most important. Bonhoeffer's a useful work, but it's Vyrso. Most of the commentaries missing page numbers are very basic, and unlikely to be cited, and the other books are either infrequently used, dated (e.g. Bright on History of Israel) or non-academic (e.g. Packer's Concise Theology).

And no-one should every cite Josephus by page number. That would be like citing the Bible by page number!

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/420642#Comment_420642

Bonhoeffer's a useful work, but it's Vyrso.

Vyrso books are very unlikely to gain page numbers unless they turn into Logos editions.

Rob Y

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/418260#Comment_418260

Hey thanks for all the replies. I've been up to my neck doing my first paper [:)] .. So there are lots that seem to be missing. I couldn't clearly identify which are the most important right now. I'm learning my way around logos, more like fumbling my way in a dark room blind folded, but excited though!

I will add them to the wikki that has been suggested. ...

Peace and blessings.

Bill Shewmaker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/420825#Comment_420825

Lexham Bible Dictionary and Wuest's Word Studies also need pagination added. I just cited them in a weekly written assignment and had to list them as "no page number listed" in the body of the work and then on the resources page I listed it as "Logos Resource." Hopefully, I'll get a reply from my professor as to how to properly cite something in SBL that doesn't have pagination.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/420850#Comment_420850

Lexham Bible Dictionary

The LBD doesn't have pages, never mind page numbers (it only exists electronically)...

Bill Shewmaker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/420857#Comment_420857

Lexham Bible Dictionary

The LBD doesn't have pages, never mind page numbers (it only exists electronically)...

Thanks Mark. I had forgotten that LBD was entirely electronic...the grad program that I'm in just started using SBL (we formerly used APA) and many of the professor aren't up to speed with SBL yet. Do you have any helpful suggestions to make it easier to use SBL?

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/420867#Comment_420867

Thanks Mark. I had forgotten that LBD was entirely electronic...the grad program that I'm in just started using SBL (we formerly used APA) and many of the professor aren't up to speed with SBL yet. Do you have any helpful suggestions to make it easier to use SBL?

I'm afraid I have a rather low opinion of SBL style - it's horribly complex. The student supplement is easier to navigate: http://www.sbl-site.org/assets/pdfs/SBLHSrevised2_09.pdf. But for all it's complexity, it suggest how to format a citation from an electronic resource that doesn't have a print counterpart, and isn't available online. You have to use this, and omit the print edition:

7.3.12 A CD-ROM REFERENCE (WITH A CORRESPONDING PRINT EDITION)

67 Duane F. Watson, “False Apostles,” n.p., ABD on CD-ROM. Version 2.0c. 1995, 1996.

71 Watson, “False Apostles,” n.p.

Watson, Duane F. “False Apostles.” The Anchor Bible Dictionary on CD-ROM. Logos Library System Version 2.0c. 1995, 1996. Print ed.: David Noel Freedman, ed. Anchor Bible Dictionary. 6 vols. New York: Doubleday, 1992.

You can copy SBL-style citations from Logos (Program/Settings), or use the new bibliography tool, but they're not always 100% accurate, but then even top-notch bibliography software like EndNote can't guarantee 100% compatibility (although Zotero is better). I couldn't imagine writing papers without one of these bibliographic software packages (Zotero is free).

Bill Shewmaker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/420907#Comment_420907

Thanks Mark. This is my last course in the program with the Grad school and as I said, we used APA style in all the previous courses. I will look into acquiring Zotero as that does seem to fit the need.

Erik

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/420942#Comment_420942

Bringing an old thread back to life.[:D]

I was using Bellville's 2 Corinthians in the IVP New Testament Commentary for a research paper this afternoon and was surprised that the pagination would still be missing after all of these years. From Logos' "Books Missing Pagination and Other Indexes" Wiki it appears this has been a known "future fix" for a very long time.

When can we expect these IVP resources to receive pagination?