Free Seminary and Masters Degree with Logos?

I have discovered that ITunes U has ALOT of lectures for courses from major seminaries (Dallas, Fuller, Asbury, Concordia, RTS, etc.)

This used in conjunction with the books and resources in Logos make for a pretty decent "seminary" education. Yes, I guess a person could drop $20-40K on the real thing and have a piece of paper to show for it, but if you can get the equivalent of a MDiv or Masters of Bible and Theology for the cost of a good Logos package, why not?

Anybody else doing the same or wondered about it?

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Dave Moser

Lectures and books aren't what make a good seminary so effective.

Andrew Blye

Agree, there is no doubt the personal/human component, but Free is free. And unless a person needs a physical degree for ordination or certain positions, why go into more debt?

Ken McGuire

There IS an impressive amount of quality material out there, and ITunes U is a wonderful resource. But at a seminary you should be learning about how to use and apply it as well, and that is always a two-way process. And so there are papers to write, where you get (at least some) feedback. And there are the discussions. Discussions with faculty, yes, but also discussions with fellow students and parishoners. It can be formal or informal... One of the more valuable discussions I had was over beer and pizza... I am not knocking on-line education. In fact, it is a blessing and can be done well. But it is much more than just watching a great lecture on ITunes.

elnwood

My favorite source for free seminary lectures is BiblicalTraining.org. A lot of the other ones have poor-quality audio or mediocre teachers, but all the ones there are top notch.

Before I started pursuing vocational ministry, I did a lot of self-education through books and free lectures. They are very profitable, but they are not a seminary Masters degree.

The Masters degree reflects a greater breadth in many areas. For example, my seminary degree made me take a lot of Church History, which is not my favorite subject, but one that is profitable and that I would have never done on my own. If I were to study subjects on my own, I wouldn't have written term papers, and I would have missed out on the learning process that comes with producing work instead of just absorbing material.

The masters degree also reflects a large chunk of time and effort. A typical 3 semester unit class represents around 45 hours of class time and about 135 hours of time out of class reading books, writing papers, and preparing for tests. Very few people put in the same number of hours on their own.

A masters degree means that you study under someone with an accredited doctorate with ministry experience. You can't get that on your own. These professors are people that may continue to be mentors in the future.

Finally, the biggest advantage to getting a piece of paper is that it is recognized. The economy is tough. A Masters degree may make the difference between getting a paid ministry position and fighting to get an unpaid ministry internship.

In short, you don't buy yourself a Masters degree. You earn one.

mwk

Yes, Andrew, I have thought/wondered about it.

I'm under no illusion that it would be as good as an in-person , structured program. And, as others have pointed out, you miss out on aspects that create a well-round program of eduction. Plus, dropping that kind of cash on an education will probably keep you far more focused than the "self-taught" route.

But, as someone with a renewed thirst for biblical understanding, it was nice to see some of the offerings through iTunes U. I can "sit in" for different courses and benefit in a way that, at this point in life, isn't realistic for me to do in person.

So I certainly wouldn't recommend this route as a replacement for a full degree. But for those of us who aren't looking to go into seminary and would like to benefit from aspects that can be done at home, it is amazing to see just what's possible these days.

David Thomas

I would propose a hybrid of comments already in this thread. The great theological content available online partnered with personal mentoring by a current pastor and a chance to use a local church as a laboratory (think of this as a 5 year internship) has great potential for spiritual formation and ministry development. The denomination to which I belong is already using this model to train latino church leaders - http://www.efca.org/reachnational/efca-gateway-theological-institute. I wonder when/if the Anglo church would embrace it.

I believe Mars Hill in Seattle is doing something along these lines. Since Mark Driscoll has endorsed Logos software in the past I am curious as to if Logos is part of what they are doing in ministry development. http://marshill.com/serve#internships

Andrew Blye

Great comments all. Thank you! Yes, I am actually looking into developing a cohort with some other young pastors in my denomination to get together and do this together, rather than in isolation.

I already have a B.S. in Pastoral Studies from a Christian college, am currently licensed, and am on track in my denomination for Ordination. The "Masters" is more for personal and ministry development, so needing the formal setting isn't as necessary as it may be in other places that require it.

Plus, trying to do the Dave Ramsey thing and pay off current student loans and debt, so going further into debt at this point isn't an option. I think, like David said, there are alot of hybrid, in-service models being developed to help give pastors and leaders the tools they need to succeed.

I would consider one of the Logos/Knox programs, but I'm not a Reformed Calvinist. So, don't really feel like doing that route. Nothing against it, but it would be great if Logos could work out some partnerships and scholarships with other schools in a Wesleyan tradition.

Until that day, it's free lectures online, reading good theology books and commentaries from Logos.

Matthew C Jones

Anybody else doing the same or wondered about it?

I try to keep quiet when non-traditional education comes up. It is a subject that is not well received by those who are chained to the millstone of establishments of higher education. [:#]

If your goal is to become a professor or write textbooks for seminaries, if your goal is to write for peer review in theological journals, you had better go to a brick and mortar seminary and plunk down $30,000 for a sheepskin.

If your goal is "merely" to become a good student of the Bible and master practical hermeneutical and homiletical skills, it can be done at significant savings and without sacrificing most of the benefits of a brick and mortar school. You can still avail yourself of teachers who have mastered the craft. You can still surround yourself with other students who are fellow travellers on their way to a similar goal. Many fine pastors and preachers did not go to seminary. If you can take being looked down on by some of the elitists you can become a lifelong student and equip yourself for service. Most native trained pastors in third world countries (and many pastors of small US churches) do not have the seminary experience.

Logos Portfolio Edition is a great place to start if you wish to acquire non-traditional "book smarts." The only caveat is; if you get bitten by the book-bug, you just may spend more on your Logos library than the seminary would have cost you. [:O]

Rosie Perera

if you get bitten by the book-bug, you just may spend more on your Logos library than the seminary would have cost you.

Yup, I can attest to that.

But you could get bitten by the book-bug even if you attend seminary, and then you're having to pay for that plus your Logos library. That's the situation I'm in. I wouldn't have done it any other way, though.

But online education is becoming more and more accepted and sooner or later will eclipse bricks and mortar education. There will be losses from not having pastors who were educated in community with mentoring and all that comes with it. There will be more people getting educated who wouldn't have been able to afford it. But there might also be more people who are thinking they are training to become pastors who probably shouldn't be and don't have the call but are doing it just because they want to and because it is so easily accessible from home now.

Andrew Blye

That's why educational attainment alone should never be the criteria as qualification to pastor. Only when someone has served in a local church, has been observed, mentored and developed character to lead should they be able to lead.

Matthew C Jones

Yes, I am actually looking into developing a cohort with some other young pastors in my denomination to get together and do this together, rather than in isolation.

It sounds like you are off to a good start.

If you Google "non-traditional college degrees" you can find many schools that offer special programs. They run from certificate/diploma level to graduate level, unaccredited/accredited, tuition-free to high dollar, correspondence to online, and include most denominational flavours. Also, Peterson's guides has a website listing many. Another search term to try is "distance learning."

Matthew C Jones

But there might also be more people who are thinking they are training to become pastors who probably shouldn't be and don't have the call but are doing it just because they want to

I would guess there is nothing more pitiful than someone trying to fulfil a ministry they are not called by God to fulfil.

I would imagine the experience gained by serving is something you can't get from a seminary or big Logos library.

Sacrifice

Free seminary at:

http://thirdmill.org/mission/bts.asp.

And Covenant Theological Seminary had courses online too:

http://old.thirdmill.org/sermons/compile_speaker.asp/speaker/Covenant Worldwide/site/iiim/category/speakers

Michael Kinch

There were some really good comments in this thread and I appreciate everyone's imput. We use Logos and are active in the forums because we want to be effective in the ministries that God has called us to. That desire drives us to study deep and hard. We need to have a study plan, which will probably include many of the suggestions listed here. I would like to see Logos come up with a program of self-study for those of us who are unable to attend seminary. Maybe someone here could put together a personal book or start a faithlife group. In my case I have studied my Bible and related books, videos, attended workshops and seminars, etc as much as I have been able. Recently I have taken advantage of some of the materials at biblicaltraining.org and other websites. At one point I served under a pastor who took me under his wing and taught me how to do visitation ministry and other forms of ministry. I will always be thankful for his leadership. To develop my presentation skills I joined Toastmasters where I have learned a great deal about organizing and presenting material and received recommendations for improvement. Though I have opportunities in my church for teaching and preaching, I seldom have someone tell me "you should have ..." or "next time try ..." I also appreciate the "tone" of the comments in this thread. We all have varied experiences and education and I find it encouraging that the comments posted are encouraging and not critical of either traditional or non-traditional educational methods. I think there is a place for both in God's vineyard. Be blessed my friends.

Andrew Blye

Michael, I agree, this has been encouraging and very informative. I would love to get an actual seminary degree someday if it should become feasible. Even if it's just a basic MA.

I think the key for us all is to make the most of whatever situation we find ourselves in. Sometimes we spend so much time focused on things that haven't happened yet or maybe aren't even supposed to happen that we fail to succeed and thrive in what God wants us to be doing right now. Been around that mountain a few times too many in my life.

I am loading up my ITunes U queue and that Third Millenium school has an app too with all the videos

Mike Childs

Indeed, there are lots of great resources available through ITunes U and through other places on the internet. It is a tremendous opportunity that should be taken advantage of.

But it is not close to being the equivalent of a good seminary education.

Of course, not everyone has the opportunity to go to seminary. And it takes more than a seminary education to make a great pastor. There are many great pastors and evangelists without a seminary education. God has always used such untrained people. Evangelist Billy Graham is a pretty good example.

Still, if one has the opportunity to go to a good seminary, he / she should go! I know my time at Asbury Theological Seminary made me a much more effective pastor and student of God's Word. A call to preach is a call to prepare.

Bill Shewmaker

I would like to chime in for a minute or two about the iTunes U. I have several "courses" downloaded to my iPad to watch/listen to. They are generally well presented (probably because they were "taped" during an actual classroom lecture. My BIGGEST problem with the iTunes U approach is the lack of a syllabus. You can listen to or watch all of the lectures you want, but if you don't have the syllabus to guide you through the extra reading material and the ultimate goals and purpose of the the course, it really doesn't do you that much good.

I have taken (for grad credit) several courses that utilized iTunes U and was very pleased that I could watch the lectures over and over as much as needed either on the schools website (which I paid to access through my tuition) or watch them on iTunes U. The great part about iTunes U...I could download them for "permanent" reference as opposed to the grad school's website basically "locked you out" when the course was finished and you could not go back to that class for reference material. But there was a tremendous amount of interactivity on the school's website because we had to spend X number of hours in discussion with other classmates each week that added to the information and application side of the course. Then, there were the papers, sometimes as many as three or four a week and a final project of a greater # of pages that were graded (reflection and some redirection if needed). Besides the online portion of the course, I also traveled each Monday to sit in a cohort of anywhere from 6 - 10 students and a facilitator that most often enhanced the learning environment (and gave some credibility that I was actually taking a bona fide class). We usually had between 800 - 1000 pages of directed reading for a two hour credit course AND all of the papers, online discussions. We accomplished a two hour course in 5 weeks and a two week allowance for the final project. One of the courses that I took even had an online test over the reading material each week.

All this to say, you really need to have that syllabus to help guide you through any course that you take, if for no other reason that to just show you what the goals and objectives of the course are and how you can know when you've fulfilled them.

Andrew Blye

Great points Bill and that might be where The Portable Seminary can come in handy to help direct the program.

One of the things I've done is to go to Dallas and look at their course schedule. I've been able to find nearly every course that they require available from either them or other seminaries in ITunes U.

I do wish they had the syllabi, but one thing I have noted recently in several of the courses is that when you click on "posts" option it gives out outlines of what to watch, what to read and when. They also have links for the required reading so you can buy the book from Amazon, etc. In my case, I'm just finding some books from my Logos library that match.

I guess what I'm getting at is that I'm not proposing that one can get the complete equivalent of a formal seminary education that is well-structured, but with a little bit of work and know-how one can come close.

One thing I am also doing is to take notes during all the lectures so I have a personal record of thoughts from them and am also planning on writing a course review paper at the completion of each course for my own files to summarize the content and what I learned. It's mostly for my own record, but it is at least, in a small way, a method of making me interact with the course, rather than just being a passive observer.

Sacrifice

Very true and that is why some like Birmingham Theological Institute (and others) are including much of what you discussed ...

http://thirdmill.org/seminary/course.asp/vs/BYT

Maintain intensive short term sessions on their campus:

http://birminghamseminary.org/?page_id=502

They offer study guides and curriculum:

http://elearning.thirdmill.org/

They even suggest Logos products:

http://birminghamseminary.org/?page_id=523

If one meets the requirements, they can begin with their free courses and then latter on advance to their paid ones, etc.
http://bts.thirdmill.org/

I would like to chime in for a minute or two about the iTunes U. I have several "courses" downloaded to my iPad to watch/listen to. They are generally well presented (probably because they were "taped" during an actual classroom lecture. My BIGGEST problem with the iTunes U approach is the lack of a syllabus. You can listen to or watch all of the lectures you want, but if you don't have the syllabus to guide you through the extra reading material and the ultimate goals and purpose of the the course, it really doesn't do you that much good.

I have taken (for grad credit) several courses that utilized iTunes U and was very pleased that I could watch the lectures over and over as much as needed either on the schools website (which I paid to access through my tuition) or watch them on iTunes U. The great part about iTunes U...I could download them for "permanent" reference as opposed to the grad school's website basically "locked you out" when the course was finished and you could not go back to that class for reference material. But there was a tremendous amount of interactivity on the school's website because we had to spend X number of hours in discussion with other classmates each week that added to the information and application side of the course. Then, there were the papers, sometimes as many as three or four a week and a final project of a greater # of pages that were graded (reflection and some redirection if needed). Besides the online portion of the course, I also traveled each Monday to sit in a cohort of anywhere from 6 - 10 students and a facilitator that most often enhanced the learning environment (and gave some credibility that I was actually taking a bona fide class). We usually had between 800 - 1000 pages of directed reading for a two hour credit course AND all of the papers, online discussions. We accomplished a two hour course in 5 weeks and a two week allowance for the final project. One of the courses that I took even had an online test over the reading material each week.

All this to say, you really need to have that syllabus to help guide you through any course that you take, if for no other reason that to just show you what the goals and objectives of the course are and how you can know when you've fulfilled them.

Michael Kinch

I have discovered that ITunes U has ALOT of lectures for courses from major seminaries (Dallas, Fuller, Asbury, Concordia, RTS, etc.)

Thank-you for the info regarding ITunes U. I recently purchased an ipad and am just learning how to use it in my studies. I downloaded the ITunes U app. Does anyone have suggestions regarding courses or seminaries?

Andrew Blye

Dallas, Asbury and Fuller Seminary have alot of good courses. Reformed Theological Seminary also has posted alot of lectures. If you do a search in the upper right for "Seminary" you'll get a list of all that are on there.

You'll want to search for courses such as:
- Old Testament
- Pentateuch
- Prophets
- New Testament
- Church History
- Systematic Theology
- Church Doctrine
- Apologetics
- Inductive Bible Study
- Hermeneutics
- Preaching or Homiletics
- Greek
- Hebrew

There are many many more...just go to the page for some of the seminaries and you'll see all the courses they offer.

Sacrifice

As far as courses, when they are good and free, take them all. Strengthen what you believe is weak and what you think are your strong points. What is your intended use of the material - your ministry will determine your major emphasis, but it is good to be well rounded in the all the categories already mentioned....

I graduated from the brick and mortar RTS, etc. so I am a little partial:

RTS Virtual:
http://itunes.rts.edu

Westminster Theological Seminary:

https://itunes.apple.com/us/institution/westminster-theological-seminary/id430331214

Birmingham Theological Seminary offers theirs thru IIIM:
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/third-millennium-ministries/id435983758?mt=8

Covenant Theological Seminary (not itunes):

http://old.thirdmill.org/sermons/compile_speaker.asp/speaker/Covenant%20Worldwide/site/iiim/category/speakers#Ancient%20&%20Medieval%20Church%20History

Concordia (Hebrew and Greek):

https://itunes.apple.com/us/itunes-u/elementary-hebrew/id426804337

https://itunes.apple.com/us/itunes-u/elementary-greek/id426804037

Also suggest Mark Futato's Beginning Biblical Hebrew - very basic but it teaches you how to use the software ...

http://www.logos.com/product/4228/beginning-biblical-hebrew

DTS:

http://www.dts.edu/itunesu/

Fuller:

http://itunesu.fuller.edu

Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary:

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/southeastern-baptist-theological/id132458157

Gordon Conwell:

http://www.gordonconwell.edu/resources/iTunes-U.cfm

And for the Books of Revealtion and Hebrews - some good starters (basic, but):

http://old.thirdmill.org/sermons/compile_speaker.asp/speaker/Arturo%20Azurdia/site/iiim/category/speakers

http://old.thirdmill.org/sermons/compile_speaker.asp/speaker/Chuck%20Hill/site/iiim/category/speakers

And some Great Articles:

http://www.frame-poythress.org

I have discovered that ITunes U has ALOT of lectures for courses from major seminaries (Dallas, Fuller, Asbury, Concordia, RTS, etc.)

Thank-you for the info regarding ITunes U. I recently purchased an ipad and am just learning how to use it in my studies. I downloaded the ITunes U app. Does anyone have suggestions regarding courses or seminaries?

Rosie Perera

Regent College has

http://www.regentradio.net

It's a free 24-hour podcast of Regent College courses. You can view the schedule online to plan ahead. They play one 8-hour block (usually 4 lectures) of each course in a row and repeat that block 3 times throughout the day so you can catch it at a time that's convenient for you no matter what your time zone is.

Currently they are working their way through J.I. Packer's Systematic Theology Overview.

Jack Caviness

Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary:

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/southeastern-baptist-theological/id132458157

Thank you for all the links. Just to note that this one is labeled incorrectly. The label is for Southwestern (Fort Worth, TX), but the link is to Southeastern (Wake Forest, NC).

Also suggest Mark Futato's Beginning Biblical Hebrew - very basic but it teaches you how to use the software ...

http://www.logos.com/product/4228/beginning-biblical-hebrew

Also note that Michael Heiser of Logos has published a series of lectures based on this text @ http://michaelsheiser.com/HWH.htm

Sacrifice

Thanks Jack, I was thinking West and grabbed East. I guess as long as I am as I am not departing eastward ....

Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary:

https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/southeastern-baptist-theological/id132458157

Thank you for all the links. Just to note that this one is labeled incorrectly. The label is for Southwestern (Fort Worth, TX), but the link is to Southeastern (Wake Forest, NC).

Also suggest Mark Futato's Beginning Biblical Hebrew - very basic but it teaches you how to use the software ...

http://www.logos.com/product/4228/beginning-biblical-hebrew

Also note that Michael Heiser of Logos has published a series of lectures based on this text @ http://michaelsheiser.com/HWH.htm

Scott Wilson

Brilliant!

Scott Wilson

Thanks for the seed, planted, watered...changed my life. thanks again.

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