Accordance 8
Comments
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David Buckham said:
I would love to see more facts, not just "this" is better than "that" dribble. If Logos is using these forums to better Logos, then give your opinion as to what needs to be improved.
I have said this before in the forums, but the Logos for Mac user interface is really lacking. The current architecture is to handle each resource in a separate window. So for example, if you have six Logos resource windows open, a web browser, a word processor, skype and maybe something like evernote running, that's at least 10 windows all interminged. If you click on your word processor window, it comes to the front, but to get back to your original multiple Logos window layout, is sometimes very cumbersome with all these windows. Using Mac spaces, and even the newer features of Expose' in Snow Leopard help, but it is still very cumbersome and inefficient except for the simplist layouts. I am really hoping in the next generation of Logos for Mac software that they develop a single workspace which you can dynamically set up text windows within.
There are other UI limitations. The toolbar is only 6 buttons and you can't change it. The "My Library" window needs to be optimised for having thousands of books on your computer. The current passage and exegetical guides are much more limited compared to their PC components. The search results really need to be taken to a new level and ideally need the ability to be customised by the user.
All this said, I am EXTREMELY grateful for Logos for Mac. These limitations are understandable because after all, the product is in it's infancy being less than one year old. I am of the belief that Logos will continue to develop this product because the Logos people have said that they will. Having used their Windows product for years, they have a track record which I think I can trust.
But why is it that I am using Logos? Why not use another programme which has a better UI right now? The simple reason for this is that Logos currently has the largest resource library of anyone. Two nights ago, I suddenly realised that I needed "A History of the Jewish People in the time of Jesus" for my coursework. In the past, I would have needed to order it on Amazon and wait for a few days for it to come in. However, I went to the Logos website and sure enough they had it. I had it downloaded in no time, it was integrated into my library and I just continued studying. I travel a fair bit and of course I can even do this when I am travelling... and I don't have to lug around the books!
In an ideal world if I had unlimited financial resources and time to
learn multiple programmes, I would probably own more than one Bible
software programme, but I can't and won't. When it comes to the objective of building a commentary and reference library, Logos is the best at the moment... and now with the Zondervan stuff (and yes they are expensive), I can buy and manage under one interface a library of resources that were unheard of 10 years ago.. If my current bigger need was to do original language studies, maps or something else, maybe I would look at something different. It all depends on what you need/want. I need access to a commentary and reference library, so that sets my criteria and priority.As far as product loyalty goes, I'm not too fussed. I think it is just a tool. Use the tool that you think best serves your need. I was a Windows user for over 15 years and finally had enough of Vista, so I moved to a Mac because I thought it might be a better tool to use at the moment. I was amazed at how many people gave me a hard time about my choice of personal electronics. When I had a windows computer, the Mac elite would give me a hard time. Now that I have a Mac, the Windows elite give me a hard time. It's funny, rarely do people give me a hard time about other personal choices. For some reason, this dynamic runs in some computing circles and it spills over a bit into Bible software. It is just a tool. Own one, own them all, the most important part is to embrace the message of the book that we are studying!
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Joe Miller said:
I always find it interesting that in a forum full of people who are here to read the Bible, that so many don't have the integrity to respect a request and lack the courtesy to honor it. I guess that also explains why Logos also has to deal with people who steal their software. Ultimately, some people always feel their personal agenda is more important than respecting others.
The older I get, the more I realise how much grace and forgiveness that I have received. Do Christians sometimes do bad things? Yes. I am a clear example of that. I have done and been forgiven much. Maybe I didn't steal a software package, but my sin(s) were no less. My human nature is that I demand justice when it comes to the wrongs of others, but expect mercy when it comes to my errors. We all need Jesus. If someone is ahead of me in this journey, may I not look with envy and I hope that I am spurred on into greater Christlikeness. If I perceive that they may be behind me in my journey, may I not justify my sins nor may I stand in judgment. God is sooooo cool though to love us inspite of all of this! [:)]
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Joe Miller said:
First, don't seek out the counsel of men like Jack who do not demonstrate a respect for others.
Joe, which Jack are you talking about? I might be slow, but I have no clue what you mean. Sorry.
Bohuslav
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Joe Miller said:
For example, Jack is perfect example of the kind of person who demonstrates a lack of consideration for the Logos request. Living proof that no matter how good Bible software is, there is not substitute for reading it and learning to live it.
Joe
What do you mean by this remark? The post to which you responded was an attempt to offer personalized help for Edward in is problems with the Mac. Exactly how is this demonstrating a non-Christian attitude?
I mentioned Helen Brown because I found her attitude genuinely Christian. She wanted someone to help Edward learn to use the tool of his choice, even if it was a competing product.
Jack
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Joe Miller said:
Edward, if you want to be used by God, I will give you a couple insights.
First, God does not care which Bible software you use. Quite honestly, He does not care if you use any Bible software. Read the Bible, trust the Spirit, and find wise counsel.
Regarding the latter. Wise counsel is not hard to find.
First, don't seek out the counsel of men like Jack who do not demonstrate a respect for others. In this case, he was made aware of the Logos request to not promote other software on their forum. Logos does not make this a formal policy, but trusts that users of this site who claim the name of Jesus will instead demonstrate the maturity to respect their request. People who are ruled by their flesh, instead of the Spirit, will of course neglect this request, make excuses for their boorish behavior, and justify their arrogance. If you want to be used by God, don't trust people who abuse the good nature of others.
Joe
I believe that you have attacked the wrong person. Perhaps you should review the previous posts in this thread.
Jack
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Joe Miller said:
First, don't seek out the counsel of men like Jack who do not demonstrate a respect for others. In this case, he was made aware of the Logos request to not promote other software on their forum. Logos does not make this a formal policy, but trusts that users of this site who claim the name of Jesus will instead demonstrate the maturity to respect their request. People who are ruled by their flesh, instead of the Spirit, will of course neglect this request, make excuses for their boorish behavior, and justify their arrogance. If you want to be used by God, don't trust people who abuse the good nature of others.
This is a bit over the top - sorry.[;)]
Ted.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Donovan, I appreciate your humility, but I was in NO way intending to imply you personally did anything wrong. You were doing something right. You were kindly trying to help other posters know the logos "policy". My apologies that you thought I was referencing you brother.Donovan R. Palmer said:Joe Miller said:I always find it interesting that in a forum full of people who are here to read the Bible, that so many don't have the integrity to respect a request and lack the courtesy to honor it. I guess that also explains why Logos also has to deal with people who steal their software. Ultimately, some people always feel their personal agenda is more important than respecting others.
The older I get, the more I realise how much grace and forgiveness that I have received. Do Christians sometimes do bad things? Yes. I am a clear example of that. I have done and been forgiven much. Maybe I didn't steal a software package, but my sin(s) were no less. My human nature is that I demand justice when it comes to the wrongs of others, but expect mercy when it comes to my errors. We all need Jesus. If someone is ahead of me in this journey, may I not look with envy and I hope that I am spurred on into greater Christlikeness. If I perceive that they may be behind me in my journey, may I not justify my sins nor may I stand in judgment. God is sooooo cool though to love us inspite of all of this!
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Jack C... the one who is unresponsive to the other brothers on this site who advised him on the Logos request regarding thirst about other software.Bohuslav Wojnar said:Joe Miller said:First, don't seek out the counsel of men like Jack who do not demonstrate a respect for others.
Joe, which Jack are you talking about? I might be slow, but I have no clue what you mean. Sorry.
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That is great Jack. LIke I said before, it does not matter what software someone uses. If they use Accordance or Logos or Bibleworks, I don' really care. The point is sir, that Logos has made a request that users do not promote other software on their blog. You can criticize Logos. You can compare Logos. You can ask questions about Logos. But they only ask we do not link to other software. You may not like that request. Some may feel that their personal liberty gives them the right to do and say whatever they want whenever they want. But when you are invited into someone else's cyber-home, I think it reflects a Christlike-attitude to respect their rules. I am sure both Logos and Accordance are run by wonderful Christian brothers and sisters. I don't know the Accordance folks because I don;'t use their product. I do know Bob (from the forums only) and many of the other good Christian brothers and sisters on this site who also care about our ability to study and learn God's word. So on what basis did you decide sir that showing disprespect to one group of brothers is the right thing to do? That is what I am referring to.JackCaviness said:Joe Miller said:For example, Jack is perfect example of the kind of person who demonstrates a lack of consideration for the Logos request. Living proof that no matter how good Bible software is, there is not substitute for reading it and learning to live it.
Joe
What do you mean by this remark? The post to which you responded was an attempt to offer personalized help for Edward in is problems with the Mac. Exactly how is this demonstrating a non-Christian attitude?
I mentioned Helen Brown because I found her attitude genuinely Christian. She wanted someone to help Edward learn to use the tool of his choice, even if it was a competing product.
Jack
If you wanted to help Edward you could have done so and STILL shown respect for the Christian brothers and ssiters at Logos. All you had to do was write and tell Edward, "I have some help to give. Call me or email me and I will help you." Was that so hard? No. And then you could have helped out a brother and respected the Logos request. Instead, you felt it necessary to do it your way. That is the lack of consideration I am talking about sir.
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I trust your opinion Ted, so let me step back and ask. My frustration is that people are putting software preference above everything else. Numerous times on this very thread it has been stated that Logos has asked folks not to promote their competitors on this thread. Yet after all that, people still insist on asserting their "right" to post links and then Jack even posts a "personal" message from the owner of Accordance telling a poster here, "come talk to me and I will help train you to use my software". Seriously, is that a demonstration of maturity? I have tried to ignore this entire silly thread, but the Accordance promoters will not go away OR show simple courtesy for the personal request of Bob (who is a Christian brother). I don't visit the Accorance site and troll for users who have problems with their software and say, "hey, come join the Logos forums and the president of Logos will help you." Why do Accorance users troll here for customers? I consider that a lack of maturity.Ted Hans said:This is a bit over the top - sorry.
Ted.
If I have gone over the top Ted, maybe my frustration has blinded my perception of the situation. But honestly, to me it is just Software and God can raise up people to serve Him with or without it. So why do some people feel the need to proselytize their software preference like it is the KJVO? Okay, sorry I am ranting now Ted. What I am asking is, please tell me how my comment is over the top and how I should rightly perceive this and rightly respond. Again, I trust your insight and perception on this.
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Joe Miller said:
Jack even posts a "personal" message from the owner of Accordance telling a poster here, "come talk to me and I will help train you to use my software". Seriously, is that a demonstration of maturity?
Joe
I have invested several thousand dollars in Logos software. I am not an "Accordance Troll". Since you have misinterpreted my intentions and even twisted my words, I had composed a very angry response. However, I have edited the post. If my wording was so unclear that you honestly interpreted my meaning to be what you posted, I apologize. I will seek greater clarity in the future.
Jack
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Jack C,
I have followed this forum and read your posts. You are not being critical of Logos, which is great. For what it's worth, the way I have read your statements I too feel very much that you are promoting Accordance over Logos.
all about Christ,
David BuckhamPS, I posted the above before you edited your response and I posted the PS after you edited. Just for clarification.
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David Buckham said:
Jack C,
I have followed this forum and read your posts. You are not being critical of Logos, which is great. For what it's worth, the way I have read your statements I too feel very much that you are promoting Accordance over Logos.
I am mystified [:^)]. Could you or Joe, or anyone else for that matter, please tell me what I said that led you to believe that I was promoting Accordance over Logos. I mentioned Helen Brown because I believed that her request that I help someone to solve his problem with Logos Mac was commendable and demonstrated a tremendous amount of Christian grace. There is nothing in that post that sought to get Edward to switch from Logos to Accordance.
If you mean a previous post, I was responding to a request for information from David Emme.
Jack
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OK, ppls. If you feel Jack overstepped the boundary of offer to help this chap out in regard to the other product, fine. I have certainly seen MUCH worse on these forums and it has not sparked a response even from Logos. A simple challenge is all that is required and if you really feel it is bad, then I suggest make use the "Report Abuse" function of this forum. The forum administrators then have the final say and then it doesn't become personal.
I can't help but wonder if there is some sort of confusion here. It was only the second post of this thread on the 23rd of August that Jack was actually encouraging the original poster to go to the other product's forum to discuss his problem. Again, you may fault a specific wording that Jack may have written in one of the more recent posts as to going over the line, but that is clearly not his intention. I have seen this elsewhere on these boards.
David Buckham said:I have followed this forum and read your posts. You are not being critical of Logos, which is great. For what it's worth, the way I have read your statements I too feel very much that you are promoting Accordance over Logos.
Additionally, I have seen Jack in the other product's forum defending Logos... in fact in one sentence he said "Logos is not an inferior product". IMHO, he's pretty even handed and fair in his critique of both products, willing to help users out with whatever platform they are interested in.
My suggestion as a fellow Logos user is that we let this thread die and start a new one on any other subjects we want to discuss. Are we really going to get any further with this? [:)]
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
My suggestion as a fellow Logos user is that we let this thread die and start a new one on any other subjects we want to discuss. Are we really going to get any further with this?
Thank you, Donovan
I believe your suggestion is a good one. However, I would still like to see Edward get the assistance he requested.
Jack
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Joe Miller said:
I trust your opinion Ted, so let me step back and ask. My frustration is that people are putting software preference above everything else. Numerous times on this very thread it has been stated that Logos has asked folks not to promote their competitors on this thread. Yet after all that, people still insist on asserting their "right" to post links and then Jack even posts a "personal" message from the owner of Accordance telling a poster here, "come talk to me and I will help train you to use my software". Seriously, is that a demonstration of maturity? I have tried to ignore this entire silly thread, but the Accordance promoters will not go away OR show simple courtesy for the personal request of Bob (who is a Christian brother). I don't visit the Accorance site and troll for users who have problems with their software and say, "hey, come join the Logos forums and the president of Logos will help you." Why do Accorance users troll here for customers? I consider that a lack of maturity.Ted Hans said:This is a bit over the top - sorry.
Ted.
If I have gone over the top Ted, maybe my frustration has blinded my perception of the situation. But honestly, to me it is just Software and God can raise up people to serve Him with or without it. So why do some people feel the need to proselytize their software preference like it is the KJVO? Okay, sorry I am ranting now Ted. What I am asking is, please tell me how my comment is over the top and how I should rightly perceive this and rightly respond. Again, I trust your insight and perception on this.
Hi Joe,
I do admire you, your writing & i pray for you. I do agree with the point you are trying to make reminding all of us that we should show respect & personal courtesy for Bob/Logos. Brother just state the facts politely, without naming individuals, and remind us that it is disrespectful and contrary to christians manners to act otherwise & leave it at that. The wise will take heed. I would not want to judge you as your heart is in the right place. Others may misunderstand you & in a public forum, individuals end up getting defensive and you may not acheive what you set out to do.
Criticism does hurt whether, they be to Logos, to Jack, Joe or me. It is important to consider how best to correct each other publicly.
Joe Miller said:What I am asking is, please tell me how my comment is over the top and how I should rightly perceive this and rightly respond. Again, I trust your insight and perception on this.
If this was a private correspondence i would feel free to go over this with you in minute details, but in a public forum it is not wise. Others may just jump in & take it to another direction.
You said what you felt about the situation, hopefully it has made us all think more carefully, but now maybe we should all leave it there?
Every blessing brother & stay blessed.
Ted.
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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Donovan R. Palmer said:
My suggestion as a fellow Logos user is that we let this thread die and start a new one on any other subjects we want to discuss. Are we really going to get any further with this?
It is about the time to do that. Thank you Donovan for suggesting that.
Bohuslav
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]Jack (since you singed your name Jack, I will assume it is okay to address you by your first name), as I suggested already, the simple solution was simply to tell Edward, "call me and I will get you the help you need." IN this manner you demonstrate compassion for Edward AND respect for the good people at Logos; It is that simple brother.JackCaviness said:David Buckham said:Jack C,
I have followed this forum and read your posts. You are not being critical of Logos, which is great. For what it's worth, the way I have read your statements I too feel very much that you are promoting Accordance over Logos.
I am mystified
. Could you or Joe, or anyone else for that matter, please tell me what I said that led you to believe that I was promoting Accordance over Logos. I mentioned Helen Brown because I believed that her request that I help someone to solve his problem with Logos Mac was commendable and demonstrated a tremendous amount of Christian grace. There is nothing in that post that sought to get Edward to switch from Logos to Accordance.If you mean a previous post, I was responding to a request for information from David Emme.
Jack
My friend Ted suggests that I was in error for pointing you out by name (and maybe a few other things he is kind enough not to mention publicly). It is also possible that as my elder, I have not shown you the proper respect for your age. In any case, I have trouble getting past my own perspective on this, so instead I will trust Ted's leadership on this issue and simply apologize and ask your forgiveness for pointing you out by name and overstepping the bounds of civility.
Jack, if you prefer to exchange further on this topic, please contact me via my website
http://www.morethancake.org/contact-me
Ted, the same for you. If you feel there is something more to be said to me regarding my actions, please let me know.
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JackCaviness said:
I have invested several thousand dollars in Logos software. I am not an "Accordance Troll". Since you have misinterpreted my intentions and even twisted my words, I had composed a very angry response. However, I have edited the post. If my wording was so unclear that you honestly interpreted my meaning to be what you posted, I apologize. I will seek greater clarity in the future.
Jack
First,
Let me say it was not my intention to see a big brouhaha about things.
Understanding where I come from, seeing my life change in such dramatic ways that anytime I perceive someone's freedom being encroached a bad thing, even to this subject sharing my opinion. Yes, I might be a bit more sensitive about things and over dramatize as Jack has said. Me, I would rather err on the said of sensitivity to freedom.
I wander about maturity of many to be able to disagree without judging the salvation and spiritual life of there.
When has disagreeing become a point of division?
I was not in communications these many months and was catching up on some threads, saw this one, and decided to speak.
Look, the Christian life is not that hard and complicated. Flaming someone as Jack because one disagrees I see as a un Christ like attitude.
I do not see Jack trying to promote one brand over another, but simply trying to help a brother in Christ.
Yes, I asked about Accordance software-so Jack was replying to my inquisition. My point would be if you know something about this other software and have a good ideal in comparison-then speak up and help another out.
In one way, I regret giving my opinion because of what has happened here. On the other hand, it is not my fault that some are immature and acts this way.
Yet, much of this is because I disagreed with someone. I should also note, disagreement is not an attack on a person.
I wander if Logos would put into the profile a way to contact people privately.
As I said in other posts, I love Logos and will stick with them no matter what other software I buy. I never see buying or comparing other products with Logos as a negative thing. Why? Because seeing comparisons will allow me to see if it is worth it to buy another program. This does not mean I will abandon Logos. As I said many times, I absolutely love Logos. I want to reiterate a point. If Logos was selling houses, I can see where comparing other products as a bad thing. The simple truth is I own two other bible programs-one I bought for 50 dollars and the other one downloaded for free. In other words, one could own several software brands and still buy as well as remain loyal to Logos.
I would like to see a comparison especially when dealing with language products and resources the other has. There is a program that has all of John Phillips works and am considering buying that program for just that reason. I do not have room in my house for the physical books I own so when I can get something digitally-I will snatch it up.
My suggestion, if you cannot hold a discussion without flaming someone else or judging the character and quality of another persons faith, then I will say it is a good time to shut your pie hole.
This discussion was not about the deity of Christ, the Trinity, or the path of salvation. This is not a discussion where souls hang in the balance.
BTW, thank you Jack about your kind words to me. Thank you for your sacrifice of service. I have seen at times where people will defer to me as opposed to another vet because they were not wounded or served in combat. Yet, many do not realize if one never saw combat-you still spend a significant time away from home-your spouse and kids as well as give up a significant amount of rights. You cannot just decide not to show up one day as in the civilian workforce.
Whether one goes to war or stands that post to protect us and never see combat-that vigilance is what held back those who wish to destroy America. Perhaps physically not as much was sacrificed by a vet, yet I do not really think most civilians who was never in the military really do not have an understanding of how vets served their country and did not see combat. The price of vigilance is training, training, and more training and then standing your post. Disabled vets are no better then other vets-the other vets were just a bit luckier. Believe me, if I could reverse all that happened to me, I would do it in a heartbeat. Yes, really the difference is pure dumb luck.
Lets all thank Jack for his loyal service for 20 yrs.
As far as rules, I never understand how one would have a rule and not have it accessible to see it. I understand they do not want to offend others, but to me the simple fact if you have a certain maturity-you will not be offended by rules. Maybe this is because for 10 yrs I lived in a structured organization that has a rule for everything and this is how I am used to operating. I am speaking of my military service.
Lets all act like Christ would have us to act.
God bless
Dave Emme
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David Emme said:
wander if Logos would put into the profile a way to contact people privately.
David
Thank you for all the kind words. I don't know why Logos does not provide a way to contact people privately, but my email address is jackcaviness@mac.com
Jack
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