'Unnecessary' questions..please READ the available info FIRST....

Before installing anything new I always read the info available before I am attempting to install. Preventing me to make mistakes and wasting precious time to restore everything. So I can decide what to do with it.

It seems to me that many people are just installing it straight away without reading the info or even without thinking. When it's going in a different way they expected then they can find the forums and blame Logos for al the things going 'wrong'.

Believe me: most of the info is available. So read it on the Logos Website, read in in the forums, read the wiki, watch the video's, etc.

Agreed no 1: the info is not nicely ordered and classified. Not in this labyrinth like forum, not on the Logos website. But at least all the info you need is available. Just go for it. Do a search. You will find most of the answers. And when you still can't find the answer..then come back to these forums and post your question.

Agreed no 2: Logos 4 is not a complete and finalized product and still needs some polishing. But for a product based on brand new techniques it is performing amazingly well.

Agreed no 3: Yes, Logos made several important decisions because of these new techniques. But when you read the available info carefully I think you can agree with most of their choices.

And most important...it is Bible software...and what are we doing with it..read and study the Bible carefully. That is far more important than Logos software, computers and anything else. Having computer problems is not the end of the world. So, please remember to behave accordingly and use your minds, like Paul told us to do.

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Rich DeRuiter

Before installing anything new I always read the info available before I am attempting to install. Preventing me to make mistakes and wasting precious time to restore everything. So I can decide what to do with it.

Very well said Luuk!

You have no idea how many problems would be avoided, and how many basic questions answered if folks would just spend a few minutes researching the update on the web site ("Click here to learn more" and "Take the product tour"), looking for an FAQ, etc.

This is my habit anytime I install new software, or install a major upgrade to any software (updates I usually just install, unless they're from Microsoft - then I research first). I'm always a bit surprised by folks who don't do this, but I suppose I shouldn't be.

I agree with your conclusion too. Sadly, it seems the peace of Christ isn't ruling our hearts as it should...yet (Col 3:15). Just let's us preachers & pastors know our work isn't finished.

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/51358#Comment_51358

I agree with your conclusion too. Sadly, it seems the peace of Christ isn't ruling our hearts as it should...yet (Col 3:15). Just let's us preachers & pastors know our work isn't finished.

Shoot, us Preachers/Pastors are often the main offenders!

J.R. Miller

Well stated and timely Luuk! :-)

Bob

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/51363#Comment_51363

Then again, I would much rather that someone ask and get a quick answer or pointer than to struggle for hours or days hunting for a post the contents of which they cannot guess. Particularly when it might be the result of an undiscovered bug in the system. There are a lot of people who do not "do" search very well, particularly in strange systems with their own terminology. I'm still learning and find that I get a lot out of reading these posts.

As Luke mentioned, our objective is to study the word. if we can give someone a few extra days in the word rather than in the website, have we not done good?

James Macleod

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/51376#Comment_51376

It's not the asking that is the problem. It is the attitude of complaining and blaming. Logos has been very up front about things though sometimes disorganized. That's to be expected with a new release. Expected by any reasonable person anyways. I didn't get any bad surprises, since I read the information available.

I think people need to remember that there are real people, our brothers, working at Logos who are trying to do their best.

J. Morris

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/51376#Comment_51376

Then again, I would much rather that someone ask and get a quick answer or pointer than to struggle for hours or days hunting for a post the contents of which they cannot guess.

As Luke mentioned, our objective is to study the word. if we can give someone a few extra days in the word rather than in the website, have we not done good?

I'd have to agree.

While there are good and bad ways of stating a question I'd think it's ok to ask. I know there have been a few times where I've asked a qustion figuring it has been discussed at some point. The forums are NOT set up to search very well. I don't really understand what is wrong with asking a question even if it seems "silly". That's what these forums are for and Logos even points to the forums as a way to get answers.

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/51363#Comment_51363

Shoot, us Preachers/Pastors are often the main offenders!

[:)]

Though I don't think shooting the preachers would help much.

Jarred Edgecombe

Luuk that was a good post.

I used to be the "IT" guy on the pastoral staff of a larger church. I was still a pastor with many responsibilities, but my time was being burned up by people on staff who defaulted to calling me instead of clicking on the help files. I got to where I would say, "Did you click on help?" When they said, "no," I would say, "Read the help file and get back to me if you still have trouble." That seemed to really cut the volume of calls I received. After all, the way I learned was to read the help files that came with the software.

After the roll-out of L4 I told my wife that I should no longer be frustrated about the complaining that I hear in our church congregation. My assumption is that the people who use Logos are either pastors, professors, students, teachers or people who really want to know more about God and his word. So one would think that there would be more graciousness and less complaining from people who are more than just "nominal Christians."

Instead I have been astounded by the attitude displayed by some of the posters in the forums.

I love Logos. I thank God that he made men with the kind of mind that can develop such useful software for the rest of us. My hat is off to Bob and the rest of the L4 development team. L4 is nothing like L3 and so there is a learning curve, but I am fine with that.

You are right that we do need to use our minds and we also need to be gracious in our interaction with other brothers and sisters in Christ.

Gerald P. Swetsky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/51395#Comment_51395

I am one of the offenders you speak of. Shoot me if you deem it necessary, but my Creator instilled me with a smidgen less patience than most.

When I have a question, I want an answer as quickly as possible. If there's an FAQ, I make a stab at finding an answer. If there's a forum, I also try doing a search before posting.

However, if after doing all the above, admittedly in haste, I ask a question in the forum that's been previously answered and you take offense at it, let me ask you something.

Is it my problem or yours?

Gerry

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/51406#Comment_51406

The funny thing is writing a post addressed to people who don't read posts.

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/51410#Comment_51410

The funny thing is writing a post addressed to people who don't read posts.

But, if I ever decide to search the forums for information on how to be a better user, I might find this thread....

Luuk Dondorp

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/51410#Comment_51410

Hey..that took a long time to see you guys on this thread..what were you doing...chasing Thomas...?

Next time i will be more tempting to you to react..

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/51416#Comment_51416

Hey..that took a long time to see you guys on this thread..what were you doing...chasing Thomas...?

Next time i will be more tempting to you to react..

Luuk, it's 6am here in Australia. I just woke up to two more pages of forum posts! That's my excuse. Philip has none.

BTW. I do agree with your initial sentiments. But, most users are males - men just don't do instructions....

Plus, they search with their mouths not with their eyes...

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/51387#Comment_51387

Shoot, us Preachers/Pastors are often the main offenders!

Though I don't think shooting the preachers would help much.

In Henry IV didn't Shakespeare say, "First we kill all the preachers"? Oh, you say that was "lawyers"? I'll take your word for it. [:D]

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/51422#Comment_51422

Luuk, it's 6am here in Australia. I just woke up to two more pages of forum posts!

Sleeping is no excuse for not being on duty.

Philip has none.

You obviously don't know me well. When it comes to intellectual speed I actually responded in an above average time for me.

Luuk Dondorp

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/51406#Comment_51406

I am one of the offenders you speak of. Shoot me if you deem it necessary, but my Creator instilled me with a smidgen less patience than most.

When I have a question, I want an answer as quickly as possible. If there's an FAQ, I make a stab at finding an answer. If there's a forum, I also try doing a search before posting.

However, if after doing all the above, admittedly in haste, I ask a question in the forum that's been previously answered and you take offense at it, let me ask you something.

Is it my problem or yours?

Gerry

Gerry, it's no problem at all, Not for me and not for you.

When I have a question, I have learned that there is always an answer available but the quickest answers are the worst. Better is to look around for different ways to solve a problem. After a while I do have a better picture of the problem / question and what is the best answer for it. And doing that I am learning a lot in the meantime, just for free!

I am not in a hurry..the Bible isn't either.

Juanita

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/51382#Comment_51382

Then again, I would much rather that someone ask and get a quick answer or pointer than to struggle for hours or days hunting for a post the contents of which they cannot guess.

As Luke mentioned, our objective is to study the word. if we can give someone a few extra days in the word rather than in the website, have we not done good?

I'd have to agree.

While there are good and bad ways of stating a question I'd think it's ok to ask. I know there have been a few times where I've asked a qustion figuring it has been discussed at some point. The forums are NOT set up to search very well. I don't really understand what is wrong with asking a question even if it seems "silly". That's what these forums are for and Logos even points to the forums as a way to get answers.

From first grade on with the better teachers I had, I was told "there is no such thing as a dumb question." So, given those who post on the forums may be new or have lurked for a long time and finally want to ask something, I want to give them grace and make them feel welcome; if I can reduce their frustration from not knowing what they really need to know, I try to help. After all, I probably have been that type of user more than once and someone bailed me out. Reading FAQ is great along with visiting the WIKI and watching videos, but the human contact can go a long way in building good will. (And I have almost given up trying to do a search in a forum with hundreds of posts.)

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/51463#Comment_51463

a forum with hundreds of posts

Over 50,000 actually....

Michael Birney

Before installing anything new I always read the info available before I am attempting to install. Preventing me to make mistakes and wasting precious time to restore everything. So I can decide what to do with it

Really? Sorry, but usually I install and then figure it out on my own, and when that fails, then ask for help. With L4, I installed, thought - how in the world does this work, came back to the forums for the first time in a year, then watched the videos. It might not be the most efficient way to do things, but judging from the frustrations of new users on this forum, a lot of people operate this way. It's how I installed xp, vista, w7, L3 (which seems so limited and unhelpful now that I have L4), office 10, openoffice, livesync, evernote, ...

Also, once the forums get going, the language and discussions get way over the head of someone just diving in. People create their own shortcut language to talk about their pet programs.

And most important...it is Bible software...and what are we doing with it..read and study the Bible carefully. That is far more important than Logos software, computers and anything else. Having computer problems is not the end of the world. So, please remember to behave accordingly and use your minds, like Paul told us to do.

Can't argue with that!

Luuk Dondorp

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/51463#Comment_51463

And I have almost given up trying to do a search in a forum with hundreds of posts.

I agree, navigation in this forum is a complete mess.

"there is no such thing as a dumb question."

Agreed again, and please do keep on posting questions. No matter dumb or smart.

But I was mere reacting on those who are just ignoring information, demanding instant solutions and want to have it their way. Those who don't want to invest any effort to look beyond their horizon.

Juanita

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/51469#Comment_51469

a forum with hundreds of posts

Over 50,000 actually....

Damian,

I am the queen of understatement. [:-*]

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/51473#Comment_51473

Before installing anything new I always read the info available before I am attempting to install. Preventing me to make mistakes and wasting precious time to restore everything. So I can decide what to do with it

Really? Sorry, but usually I install and then figure it out on my own, and when that fails, then ask for help.

I think Luuk was suggesting what we should do, not describing what we do do. I too belong to the "instructions are for wasters" school of computing. That's fine (as long as you have a rigorous backup policy!).

Bad: -> Install -> Demand help now: "I bought this darn thing an hour ago and it still doesn't work!"
Good: Install -> Google manically when it doesn't work -> Ask for help several hours later
Better: Read the instructions carefully -> Install -> Ask for help if something doesn't work like the instructions say it should

Juanita

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/51477#Comment_51477

But I was mere reacting on those who are just ignoring information, demanding instant solutions and want to have it their way. Those who don't want to invest any effort to look beyond their horizon.

Yes, Luuk, I get what you are saying. Some struggle is unavoidable and definitely part of the learning process. I try to preface my questions with what I have already tried to do before I ask for help.

Michael Birney

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/51483#Comment_51483

"instructions are for wasters"

lol. That is the school of computing I went to.

Luuk Dondorp

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/51483#Comment_51483

Bad: -> Install -> Demand help now: "I bought this darn thing an hour ago and it still doesn't work!"

Good: Install -> Google manically when it doesn't work -> Ask for help several hours later

Better: Read the instructions carefully -> Install -> Ask for help if something doesn't work like the instructions say it should

Yes, good illustration!

Luuk

Juanita

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/51483#Comment_51483

I think Luuk was suggesting what we should do, not describing what we do do. I too belong to the "instructions are for wasters" school of computing. That's fine (as long as you have a rigorous backup policy!).

Bad: -> Install -> Demand help now: "I bought this darn thing an hour ago and it still doesn't work!"

Good: Install -> Google manically when it doesn't work -> Ask for help several hours later

Better: Read the instructions carefully -> Install -> Ask for help if something doesn't work like the instructions say it should

Mark,

I think you are one of those and there are many with brilliant minds that answer questions in the forums--you authored some of the videos I watched and they were great. Until I started watching the videos that Logos provided and other users like John Fidel made, I hard a really hard time with L4; I was ingrained with L3 and had a very tough time making the shift. If I had not asked for help, sooner rather than later, I may have not made the switch for months. I just don't want people to think they aren't free to ask questions wherever they are in the learning process; and I agree that demanding help now and expressing a bad attitude is no place to start on the forum. I hope this makes sense.

Luuk Dondorp

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/51483#Comment_51483

Really? Sorry, but usually I install and then figure it out on my own, and when that fails, then ask for help.

Perfect, keep on doing that. As long as you take the blame and concequences yourself and I think you do, if I got you right.

I too belong to the "instructions are for wasters" school of computing. That's fine (as long as you have a rigorous backup policy!).

And I think you do just the same.

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/51406#Comment_51406

However, if after doing all the above, admittedly in haste, I ask a question in the forum that's been previously answered and you take offense at it, let me ask you something.

Gerry, I don't mind users asking questions in a forum. That's what a forum is for.

I don't like rants and complaints about what Logos is doing, or not doing, when a simple question about how to do something would go so much farther. Sure there's a time to complain, but its always better to find a solution than complain about a lack of one.

As someone who is here trying to help, I sometimes get a bit tired of answering the same questions over and over again. In some ways, that's just in the nature of trying to help people. And at least I know the answer to those questions!But it would be nice if some folks did a bit of their own homework.

I know this forum software is no help, but there's a lot of good help available on the Logos web site that answers many of the questions that have been asked here. And most of it is easy to find ("Click here to learn more" is right on www.logos.com).

In case you suspect I was thinking of you, or anyone else in particular, I'm not.

Anonymous

Before installing anything new I always read the info available before I am attempting to install. Preventing me to make mistakes and wasting precious time to restore everything. So I can decide what to do with it.

It seems to me that many people are just installing it straight away without reading the info or even without thinking. When it's going in a different way they expected then they can find the forums and blame Logos for al the things going 'wrong'.

Believe me: most of the info is available. So read it on the Logos Website, read in in the forums, read the wiki, watch the video's, etc.

Agreed no 1: the info is not nicely ordered and classified. Not in this labyrinth like forum, not on the Logos website. But at least all the info you need is available. Just go for it. Do a search. You will find most of the answers. And when you still can't find the answer..then come back to these forums and post your question.

Agreed no 2: Logos 4 is not a complete and finalized product and still needs some polishing. But for a product based on brand new techniques it is performing amazingly well.

Agreed no 3: Yes, Logos made several important decisions because of these new techniques. But when you read the available info carefully I think you can agree with most of their choices.

And most important...it is Bible software...and what are we doing with it..read and study the Bible carefully. That is far more important than Logos software, computers and anything else. Having computer problems is not the end of the world. So, please remember to behave accordingly and use your minds, like Paul told us to do.

I assume I'm the hothead this is aimed at since I did most of the compaining this morning (my mood was mostly defined by the lack of sleep I had). Several of the comments I was pointed to were in forums I couldn't access. And yes, I did install without doing much research or thinking. But since the discussion of the things that were an issue for me were hidden away, it wouldn't have done me much good. I do apologize if I was rude or gave offence in any way.

I'm old hat at installing stuff, and so was thrown for quite a loop when the process worked different from what I've come to expect from Logos 3 as well as every other program I've ever used on my computer. I've yet to be convinced that the way it installs is a good idea. But that's already been beat to death elsewhere. I'll just say that I don't think a user sticking the disk in and clicking Install and expecting things to work in a reasonable way without reading documentation first is unreasonable.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/51583#Comment_51583

Jeffrey,

I interacted with you on your other thread, and whilst your first post perhaps wasn't as considered as it might have been, your 'hotheadedness' ranks as merely average. You should meet some of the people who come on here! So I pretty sure this wasn't aimed at you, and I'm certain you can stop apologising now!! I also agree with your last sentence - you're right.

Mark

Chris Elford

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/51376#Comment_51376

Then again, I would much rather that someone ask and get a quick answer or pointer than to struggle for hours or days hunting for a post the contents of which they cannot guess. Particularly when it might be the result of an undiscovered bug in the system.

I agree with you to a point. You should have read the basic stuff first. And they ought to do it with humility. But, if they come in with blame and flame - that's not appropriate.

Chris

Anthony Etienne

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/51363#Comment_51363

I agree with your conclusion too. Sadly, it seems the peace of Christ isn't ruling our hearts as it should...yet (Col 3:15). Just let's us preachers & pastors know our work isn't finished.

Shoot, us Preachers/Pastors are often the main offenders!

LOL!!! how true how true; the messege is for the messenger first [:)]

Mike Childs

Yes, and that is just what I tell all my church members. "Stop it with the stupid questions and complaining. Read you bulletins and newsletters and you would know what time the committee meeting is. Read the bulletin and then call me if you are still stupid!"

Don't they know it is a privilege to have my services. I do it for the Lord, you know.

Forget this, "the customer is always right bull."

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/51628#Comment_51628

Don't they know it is a privilege to have my services.

What !! [:^)] Are you saying that your parishoners are privileged to have you as their pastor? [*-)]

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/51646#Comment_51646

What !! Are you saying that your parishoners are privileged to have you as their pastor?

That, George, is what is known as humour.

MJ. Smith

Before installing anything new I always read the info available before I am attempting to install. Preventing me to make mistakes and wasting precious time to restore everything. So I can decide what to do with it.

The true habits of three IT project managers/chief analysts - one of which was me

A simply started using the software ... looking in manuals only as a last resort
B read all the manuals, followed tutorials and learned the 'correct' way to use each feature
C waited until A & B had it down, then asked for a quick walkthrough

We all succeeded in doing our job - our way. May I label you a "B" without 'fessing up to which one I was?

Anonymous

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/52212#Comment_52212

M.J.,

If the product had shipped with an actual manual I could sit down and read from cover to cover, believe me, I would have. A haphazard collection of online videos and forum posts are not real documentation. And the in-program help is a joke(*). For example, the only documentation of query syntax in the online help is the line: "Full query syntax is supported, such as AND, OR, and ANDNOT". I'm pretty sure there's more to the query syntax than that, but I sure can't find it.

(*) Yes, I know that's a fairly provocative statement, and maybe I should mince my language a little bit. But it really is fairly poor. And I am getting fairly frustrated with trying to find out how to do things. See, for example, my question about searching the library for books by language.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/52237#Comment_52237

M.J.,

If the product had shipped with an actual manual I could sit down and read from cover to cover, believe me, I would have. A haphazard collection of online videos and forum posts are not real documentation. And the in-program help is a joke(*). For example, the only documentation of query syntax in the online help is the line: "Full query syntax is supported, such as AND, OR, and ANDNOT". I'm pretty sure there's more to the query syntax than that, but I sure can't find it.

(*) Yes, I know that's a fairly provocative statement, and maybe I should mince my language a little bit. But it really is fairly poor. And I am getting fairly frustrated with trying to find out how to do things. See, for example, my question about searching the library for books by language.

I don't recall a post regarding searching for books by language. It is possible, however, to enter tags to your resources. You might go through your library and tag them by language: English, German, French, Greek, Hebrew, Hausa etc.

J.R. Miller

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/52237#Comment_52237

Yes, I know that's a fairly provocative statement, and maybe I should mince my language a little bit. But it really is fairly poor

Please also remember that the people helping answer your questions are users, like you, and not responsible for your frustrations.. only trying to help :-)

I am not suggesting that anything you wrote above in any way crosses the line... so no worries there. Just wanted to pop in a friendly reminder to show grace to the folks who are giving their time to help those who need it.

Blessings brother.

spitzerpl

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/52254#Comment_52254

(*) Yes, I know that's a fairly provocative statement, and maybe I should mince my language a little bit. But it really is fairly poor. And I am getting fairly frustrated with trying to find out how to do things. See, for example, my question about searching the library for books by language.

I'm not sure if you ever got an answer for this but you can do this two ways. type lang:greek and all your greek resources will be filtered out, or you can sort your library by language so that you get the following results. If you need guidance doing either please let me know.

I agree that the help has a ways to go.

Edward hyndman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/51628#Comment_51628

Yes, and that is just what I tell all my church members. "Stop it with the stupid questions and complaining. Read you bulletins and newsletters and you would know what time the committee meeting is. Read the bulletin and then call me if you are still stupid!"

Don't they know it is a privilege to have my services. I do it for the Lord, you know.

Forget this, "the customer is always right bull."

lol Thanks Michael I was just thinking as I read through the posts - how do I deal with rant, flame, complain and such as a pastor?

On the other hand, I can do a fair bit of complaining and ranting on the forum all my own, so I guess a few rants against my rants is fair. [:)] It may even be beta testing of a heavenly upgrade.... missing features are coming...... be patient [:D]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/52237#Comment_52237

If the product had shipped with an actual manual I could sit down and read from cover to cover, believe me, I would have. A haphazard collection of online videos and forum posts are not real documentation. And the in-program help is a joke(*). For example, the only documentation of query syntax in the online help is the line: "Full query syntax is supported, such as AND, OR, and ANDNOT". I'm pretty sure there's more to the query syntax than that, but I sure can't find it.

I do agree that the documentation is weak and the videos don't show clearly what features are standard vs. those applying only to specific packages. But the wiki and the forum are slowly stepping up to the task. Ask away - be frustrated to your heart's content - just be patient waiting for an answer, please.