Ephesians 5:22 Submit Transliteration
- while doing a word interlinear study on Ephesians 5:22 i stopped on the word 'submit'. now the KJV 'submit yourselves' has the greek strongs 5293 transliteration 'hupotasso', however, there seems to be no transliteration with the ESV. how so?
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WayneLOwens said:
- while doing a word interlinear study on Ephesians 5:22 i stopped on the word 'submit'. now the KJV 'submit yourselves' has the greek strongs 5293 transliteration 'hupotasso', however, there seems to be no transliteration with the ESV. how so?
This is one of the reasons that I tell everyone to avoid interlinears. If you don't know Greek (or Hebrew) as you obviously don't, they aren't going to really help you since you already know the gloss (word used in translatiion) and knowing such a matter as how the Greek word is transliterated or pronounced isn't going to gain you any real knowledge. If someone does happen to know a little of the original language, an interlinear becomes a crutch so that they never really develop a more advanced knowledge of the language. I refer to it as the game "Let's Pretend" -- "Let's pretend we know Greek / Hebrew" or "Let's pretend we actually gained something substantive by looking at an interlinear."
How do I know that you don't know Greek? I know because there is no verb in 5.22 for "submit." The idea of submission is carried forward from 5.21. Get a good commentary and quit pretending.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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But how do you really feel George... :-)George Somsel said:How do I know that you don't know Greek? I know because there is no verb in 5.22 for "submit." The idea of submission is carried forward from 5.21. Get a good commentary and quit pretending.
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Wayne, if you do want to learn more Greek, Logos does have some training resources that will help you learn it. I hear good things about their "Greek in a Week" courses.
Here is a link to one in NY
http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/5851
I don't know where you live, but they are in many places all over the country.
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Joe Miller said:
But how do you really feel George... :-)George Somsel said:How do I know that you don't know Greek? I know because there is no verb in 5.22 for "submit." The idea of submission is carried forward from 5.21. Get a good commentary and quit pretending.
I'm so reserved that you'll never know.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
How do I know that you don't know Greek? I know because there is no verb in 5.22 for "submit." The idea of submission is carried forward from 5.21. Get a good commentary and quit pretending.
You will have to excuse George. If it isn't in the NA27, it isn't worth considering in his mind. the KJV is based off the majority text which does include the word submit, while the ESV is based off the eclectic text which does not contain it.
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WayneLOwens said:
- while doing a word interlinear study on Ephesians 5:22 i stopped on the word 'submit'. now the KJV 'submit yourselves' has the greek strongs 5293 transliteration 'hupotasso', however, there seems to be no transliteration with the ESV. how so?
Are you doing this in Logos3?
If so, the reason is that the KJV is tagged with Strongs numbers and the ESV is not.
[BTW, George, regularly rants about interlinears. Don't take it personally.]
EDIT: Philip is also right about the lack of the word hupotasso in the text behind the ESV. I should have caught that one, having just preached on it a few weeks ago. I never knew that the TR had "submit" as an imperative in v.22. After having studied this section carefully, it does seem like an addition by the TR, rather than a missing word in the eastern text tradition (YMMV).
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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George, you're a rough character, now, tell me of a 'good commentary'.
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WayneLOwens said:
George, you're a rough character, now, tell me of a 'good commentary'.
Yes, he is a rough character. He also allowed his prejudiced against interlinear to prevent him from finding the real answer for you. To discover the answer to your problem you need to turn to an apparatus, not a commentary, though you will probably find some commentaries that point your towards the apparatus. Metzger is a good place to start if you have it.
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Wayne,
The KJV is based on a different family of Greek texts, commonly known as the Majority Text, while the ESV is based on the critical text. The Majority Text has hupotasso in verse 22, but the better Greek manuscripts with the ESV is based on does not, but rather as George said, the idea of submission is carried over from verse 21. This is common in Greek, especially greek written in the more classical styles. What probably happened is that over time as greek became even more simplified, some monk who was copying Ephesians thought the previous scribe has left out "hupotasso" and inserted it into the text family that became known in time as the Majority Text.
Don't let George discourage you, keep asking questions, but do be prepared for answers that require work on your part. It is worth the effort to learn the languages and at least the basics of text criticism. Bible study software is a tool, not a short cut. George is correct in noting that those who do not put in the work are handicaping themselves and risk making so incorrect conclusions. This is why he is recommending good commentaries as a safe guard. If you are coming up with something no one else has seen, you are most likely wrong.
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WayneLOwens said:
George, you're a rough character, now, tell me of a 'good commentary'.
I tend to get a bit incensed about interlinears since the subject appears so frequently on this forum. Don't use them!
Regarding good commentaries on Ephesians:
1. Best, ICC series
2. Abbott, ICC series
3. Barth, Anchor Bible series
4. Westcott, CCGNT
5. Lincoln, Word Bble Commentary seriesAll of these are available in Logos. Unfortunately neither Hermeneia nor NIGTC (New International Greek Testament Commentary) has a volume on this.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
I tend to get a bit incensed about interlinears since the subject appears so frequently on this forum. Don't use them!
In defense of them I would say don't end your study with them. Use them to springboard you into finding out the right answer. Actually using the KJV/NKJV and comparing them to something like the ESV along with their interlinears and sympathetic highlighting is a good way to quickly see the difference between various texts. But on this point George and I will disagree. I will say that pin my knowledge of Greek against his and he will win 10 times over every time, though.
It is noteworthy to point out that at least one commentary that George mentioned above, number 5, makes no mention of the variants at this point. I can't speak for the other 4.
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George Somsel said:
I tend to get a bit incensed about interlinears since the subject appears so frequently on this forum. Don't use them!
Yeah but they make exegesis so easy, even a cave man could do it. Well, except for this one:
Actually a better thing to say is don't over rely upon them. Use them carefully or cautiously. To say "stop pretending" is a little insensitive. Just because one person has less utility with original languages does not mean he/she should never use tools designed to help them understand better the text. They just have to realize those tools are just as fallible as a commentary or preacher might be. Ultimately it is the Holy Spirit who should guide us to the right interpretation and not an interlinear a Bible study program or a caveman.
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
hey thanks, i believe you do have a humble side.
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I am glad that you are keeping the "inner cave-man" on a leash. I think the Greek in Romans 6 it talks about putting off the "cave-man"... but I need to check my Interlinear.George Somsel said:Joe Miller said:
But how do you really feel George... :-)George Somsel said:How do I know that you don't know Greek? I know because there is no verb in 5.22 for "submit." The idea of submission is carried forward from 5.21. Get a good commentary and quit pretending.
I'm so reserved that you'll never know.
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George Somsel said:
I tend to get a bit incensed about interlinears since the subject appears so frequently on this forum. Don't use them!
Well, George, I'll admit to having concerns about too many language helps creating pseudo-scholars who don't know that they are pseudo. One person asked me to review their OT translation for Amazon - believed that translating a single Hebrew root as a single English root was the only way to be accurate. Don't push me on topics like semantic overlap, historical evolution, false etymologies ... did you know that woman and queen derive from the same proto-IndoEuropean root?
Anyway, I spent years in college creating my own Sanskrit interlinears. And with my newfound expertise in Hebrew (1 word every ten minutes) and Greek (1 word every two minutes), I do appreciate an interlinear to tell me where I blew my grammar yet again. Of course, as a retired programmer I'm use to having the machine tell me I'm wrong so I may have a screwy perspective.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Thank you Logos for the Interlinears!
Using them along with the multitude of other language helps (by
comparing and contrasting) a non-Greek/Heb. (etc) learner can certainly
better ascertain the meaning of a word.I think some of the more proficient language users are just jealous because Logos helps to "close the gap" for the rest of us. [:P]
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George: once again you did not disappoint!
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Jeremiah Daniel Morris said:
I think some of the more proficient language users are just jealous because Logos helps to "close the gap" for the rest of us.
Good try but no ... my concern is that one frequently misreads passages because one has not read enough to be familiar with the idioms and linguistic conventions of the literature one is "reading." I've seen far too many people convinced of misreadings of the texts.[:(]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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