Windows Phone 8 App
Comments
-
It's a management decision, and there are no market share numbers that support this decision, certainly since universal apps made Windows Phone and Windows a single platform.
Universal apps have barely even happened yet, and won't begin to have an effect until at least Windows 10. That's a way off yet.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
0 -
Not true. Universal apps work on Windows Phone and Windows 8/8.1 now and are being published daily, and nothing keeps Logos from creating one today. As a matter of fact, it would be by far the wisest route. I'm not sure which "effect" you think would be delayed until Windows 10.
0 -
[quote]Either way, though, it means FaithLife's resources (which are not infinite) would be pulled into supporting a platform with a small user base.
HUMBUG.
There are tens of millions of Windows Phone users. That's plenty to support a development effort. An Universal App would eventually reach over a billion people since it also includes all regular Windows users. Granted, many haven't moved to Windows 8 or Windows 10 yet, but eventually they will (software obsolescence), and hundreds of millions already have. Mac is what is a small market share (less than a third of Windows 8/8.1 alone), and yet Logos is throwing serious money at it. Note that this is a separate platform that is incompatible with iOS or Windows, so it's a far greater effort than creating a universal app when you already have a Windows code base.
It's a management decision, and there are no market share numbers that support this decision, certainly since universal apps made Windows Phone and Windows a single platform. The market share argument is dead as a doornail. Note also that no one from Logos has made that argument in a while.
Joe, not only is the market share for Windows phones low, but it is actually dropping--see http://news.softpedia.com/news/Windows-Phone-Loses-Users-in-Almost-Every-Single-Big-Market-469324.shtml Keep in mind that only one of the countries listed, Italy, currently has market penetration in double digits, and even that is sharply down from the prior year. Yes, you could argue that the efforts spent on Mac is on a tiny market share as well, but I would say that would suggest that it might not be the best business decision--unless Mac market share is growing. I'm not sure if it is or not, and if not, then I'd suggest it's not the best way to allocate resources.
Those "tens of millions" aren't going to mean much if they aren't interested in Logos. Of course, FaithLife could invest resources in developing and supporting a Windows Phone app with the hope that either (a) current Logos users are/will be migrating to a Windows platform or (b) current Windows phone users are/will be migrating to Logos (and keep in mind that tens of millions of Android and iPhone users are not Christians, much less interested in Bible software.)
0 -
Let's look at that argument:
1. These aren't market share numbers. These are percentage of new sales in the various quarters. In some cases, Microsoft may have actually sold more phones than the quarter/year before, just not as much more as Android did. Any of these sales may increase the established base (some will be replacements).
2. Looking at tens of millions of users and saying, "I'm not sure whether you'll be interested" would be a peculiar argument. There are ways to answer that question, and no indication Logos is trying to find out.
3. Universal apps will be available for Windows Phone and Windows. At this point, you have a nine-digit potential audience (Windows 8/8.1 and Windows Phone), and as people upgrade operating systems (XP, Vista, 7 replaced by 8/8.1, 10), easily a potential audience equaling Android and exceeding iOS. This is no longer a 3.X% market share user base. No one knows for sure where the PC/mobile markets are going to go, but Microsoft has enough base that they will be a very significant player. Hiding behind "Windows Phone has only 3.X% market share" is a smoke screen that ignores that Microsoft has changed the equation.
4. Several of the market share research companies have been called out recently for producing very fishy numbers. Don't put too much weight on their information ( http://www.zdnet.com/article/more-weird-science-web-analytics-firms-kick-off-new-year-with-suspicious-statistics/ ).
BTW, if I recall correctly, Mac share has been fairly stagnant. It's certainly not exploding with growth.
0 -
So, what could Logos do?
If Logos was willing to engage in a conversation about this, I believe there are a variety of options that could be put on the table.
Obviously, some people might want an app that is feature-equivalent to the iOS and Android versions.
However, if Logos was open to start talking about at least some support, I think there would be a number of people open to considering options. For instance, if web services to certain features could be made available that allow a third party developer to build an app that exposes certain features (say, access to viewing and editing Notes), we'd at least start making some progress. There's documents.logos.com, so surely that type of thing could be done. We could develop a feature list of what Windows/Windows Phone users want. We do have access to full Logos on a product like the Surface, so the universal app may not need to offer everything an iPad would have. However, there are uses for which an app with touch (pen?) support is far superior, which may not be near as large a project as some would think.
Yet, as of now, Logos has not even appeared interested to talk to her customers about this for quite a while.
0 -
Let's look at that argument:
1. These aren't market share numbers. These are percentage of new sales in the various quarters. In some cases, Microsoft may have actually sold more phones than the quarter/year before, just not as much more as Android did. Any of these sales may increase the established base (some will be replacements).
You're correct, Joe--but keep in mind, new sales do influence current market share. With the speed of technological advances, if new phones purchased for an OS declines, it has a fairly quick effect on market penetration.
[quote]2. Looking at tens of millions of users and saying, "I'm not sure whether you'll be interested" would be a peculiar argument. There are ways to answer that question, and no indication Logos is trying to find out.
I probably expressed myself poorly, Joe. Basically, the argument for supporting a system with a small percentage of market share is saying "I think that there's a significant fraction that would buy my product for their platform...enough to justify allocating some resources for other platforms that likewise, probably have a small fraction wanting to buy my product, but their market share is significantly more. In other words, does FaithLife think that (a) Windows Phone users would have a higher likelihood of buying Logos than Android or iOS users? Or perhaps (b) just a high enough likelihood to justify the cost of development and support? I agree that a company should try to answer that question, and I would imagine that Faithlife engages in this kind of market research.
[quote]3. Universal apps will be available for Windows Phone and Windows. At this point, you have a nine-digit potential audience (Windows 8/8.1 and Windows Phone), and as people upgrade operating systems (XP, Vista, 7 replaced by 8/8.1, 10), easily a potential audience equaling Android and exceeding iOS. This is no longer a 3.X% market share user base. No one knows for sure where the PC/mobile markets are going to go, but Microsoft has enough base that they will be a very significant player. Hiding behind "Windows Phone has only 3.X% market share" is a smoke screen that ignores that Microsoft has changed the equation.
But the solution for Windows 8.1 users like me is to run full Logos on my Tablet. Yes, I would love to see a more robust app, but I'd even more like to see the full desktop version to be more touch friendly. If that happens, I have little need for a separate app. YMMV.
[quote]4. Several of the market share research companies have been called out recently for producing very fishy numbers. Don't put too much weight on their information ( http://www.zdnet.com/article/more-weird-science-web-analytics-firms-kick-off-new-year-with-suspicious-statistics/ ).
That is unfortunate, and businesses need accurate data for their strategic planning. When the numbers are misleading, it can misdirect company resources.
[quote]BTW, if I recall correctly, Mac share has been fairly stagnant. It's certainly not exploding with growth.
I'm not a Mac person, and I don't doubt it. I love Windows 8.1 and I have no desire to enter the Mac world. I wouldn't be surprised if companies like FaithLife start scaling back their investment in this market, if it's becoming more and more of a niche.
Daniel
0 -
[quote]But the solution for Windows 8.1 users like me is to run full Logos on my Tablet. Yes, I would love to see a more robust app, but I'd even more like to see the full desktop version to be more touch friendly. If that happens, I have little need for a separate app. YMMV.
That's why I'm not asking for a full-featured app myself (not that I would be upset if they built one ;-). I'd like to have a quick way to add to my notes. I'm listening to someone, and I want to put it into my library so that if I'm preaching on this topic in a year, I can use that quote. Currently, I'm trying that via a Word doc hosted on OneDrive for Business and imported as a personal book. A proper way to view and edit Notes would be awesome, especially on the phone. I tried to use the Windows modern reading app, but it has no highlighting functionality. If we could have the same highlighting options as the desktop version so I can visually (with all colors available) mark up the book I'm reading, I'd probably be satisfied. I'd like a smoother reading experience than Biblia gives me today on my phone, but I'm hobbling along for now.
I don't think it would take a lot to provide some great steps forward for us. As a matter of fact, if they're willing to give third party developers the interfaces to do it, it could be hardly any work on their part. But all we're hearing is silence.
0 -
[quote]But the solution for Windows 8.1 users like me is to run full Logos on my Tablet. Yes, I would love to see a more robust app, but I'd even more like to see the full desktop version to be more touch friendly. If that happens, I have little need for a separate app. YMMV.
That's why I'm not asking for a full-featured app myself (not that I would be upset if they built one ;-). I'd like to have a quick way to add to my notes. I'm listening to someone, and I want to put it into my library so that if I'm preaching on this topic in a year, I can use that quote. Currently, I'm trying that via a Word doc hosted on OneDrive for Business and imported as a personal book. A proper way to view and edit Notes would be awesome, especially on the phone. I tried to use the Windows modern reading app, but it has no highlighting functionality. If we could have the same highlighting options as the desktop version so I can visually (with all colors available) mark up the book I'm reading, I'd probably be satisfied. I'd like a smoother reading experience than Biblia gives me today on my phone, but I'm hobbling along for now.
I don't think it would take a lot to provide some great steps forward for us. As a matter of fact, if they're willing to give third party developers the interfaces to do it, it could be hardly any work on their part. But all we're hearing is silence.
I agree, Joe--the two features I'd most like to see on a Windows Touch App would be (1) View, Add & Edit Notes and (2) View, Add & Edit Highlights. Those two features would be enough to satisfy many of the touch app limitations today.
I remember when the iOS app was in the state that the Windows App is today (no highlighting, no notes) I used a competitor's product that supported these items until FaithLife developed their app more, and when they did, I was very happy. But now that I have a Surface Pro, I find I'm using the full desktop version more. Whenever I eventually replace my iPhone, I would consider a Windows phone if there was a good way to use Logos on it (hence my Biblia comments...that might be the avenue that would offer the most return to FaithLife.)
Daniel
0 -
If they simply expanded documents.logos.com to allow editing and creating of notes, and made it mobile friendly, they could answer that need in no time at all, and everyone would benefit.0
-
Not true. Universal apps work on Windows Phone and Windows 8/8.1 now and are being published daily, and nothing keeps Logos from creating one today.
What keeps Logos creating one is:
- Universal apps don't work on Windows 7 (in other words they're not universal).
- Windows 8/8.1 users would gain nothing from a universal app.
- Therefore they're only of benefit to Windows Phone users.
I mentioned Windows 10 because:
- Universal apps are being improved for Windows 10: http://blogs.windows.com/buildingapps/2014/09/30/universal-windows-apps-get-better-with-windows-10/
- Universal apps aren't useful whilst you still have to support Windows 7. That's not going to stop being necessary until at least Windows 10 is out, probably Windows 11.
The long and short of it is that Universal apps are currently only useful for phone app developers to widen support to desktop users. They're not useful for desktop developers to widen support to phone users.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
0 -
[quote]in other words they're not universal
Not going to debate whether Microsoft chose a good term. Turns out, they don't work in Windows 3.11 for Workgroups, either. They're apps.
[quote]Windows 8/8.1 users would gain nothing
Windows 8/8.1 users would very much so gain something, as the conversation between Daniel and me indicates.
[quote]they're only of benefit to Windows Phone users
Therefore, they do not only benefit Windows Phone users.
[quote]apps are being improved for Windows 10
Of course, Microsoft is going to improve their current development approach for the next operating system version. There will always be improvement, but you can't wait around for some improvement one day or you will never start.
[quote]Universal apps aren't useful whilst you still have to support Windows 7
Windows 7 users are going to need to use the Logos desktop app since Windows 7 doesn't support apps. The universal app I'm asking for is not competing with the desktop app, but complementing it. By your logic, Logos should have never created an iOS app, since they already have a Mac program, and there are still Mac users around.
A good number of technology watchers (and possibly Microsoft, I don't remember for sure) have indicated that Windows 10 may very well be the last big release of Windows. I.e., you could be waiting for Windows 11 for a very long time.
The long and short of it is that the potential and strategic purpose of Universal apps is that you can write largely the same app for both phone and Windows app (not desktop, though you can run them on the desktop as well in Windows 10), and not have to start over to have an app in both environments. I.e., your audience of a single development effort just multiplied, which was the very argument of the recent posts of this thread.
No one would want to re-write all the functionality of the desktop program as an app. Mobile devices (including tablets, to a degree, though the Surface functions as both tablet and laptop) are frequently used for specific, small tasks, such as taking down a note or looking up a single item quickly (or very practically, reading a book). That can be beautifully served by an app that complements desktop Logos. iOS and Android are getting these apps, and it's time that Logos engage their Windows users to serve their needs in this space as well.
Why is YouVersion, an app launched by some church in Oklahoma, the go-to app for bible reading world-wide? Logos had decades of Bible software experience under their belt when YouVersion was launched. BTW, that church in Oklahoma managed to create a Windows Phone app, too. Is it really too much to ask of the premier Bible software company in the world to support all of the three major platforms when a church in Oklahoma can do it?
0 -
Windows 8/8.1 users would very much so gain something, as the conversation between Daniel and me indicates.
That conversation demonstrated that Daniel wished the desktop app was more touch friendly. That's much easier to fix than building a whole new app.
Why is YouVersion, an app launched by some church in Oklahoma, the go-to app for bible reading world-wide?
Because (a) it was first, and (b) it's free. The "some church in Oklahoma" has plowed more than $20million into developing it.
By the way, I presume you know a simple Logos Bible app already exists for Windows 8/8.1?
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
0 -
I have really been enjoying this thread debate today. I live in Australia a long way from USA. I am right on board with your viewpoint Joe and as an early contributor to the debate I can see that you have certainly livened it up. I have always wondered why on the logos training videos and you tube clips everyone is using a mac. Apple were a latecomer to the Logos community and for a long time people were complaining about the flaky implementation, maybe they still are. Yet for some reason Logos appear to have ignored the rapidly growing user base on Windows 8.1. I have both an ASUS notebook and a surface pro 2 yet the windows software makes no attempt at being touch friendly. In my conversation with Logos staff when I upgraded to logos 6 I was told that touch is not even on their radar. So for reading, highlighting and taking notes on the go I use a Samsung tablet running Android. Please don't mention the appalling excuse for a Windows 8 app. In my opinion it should be withdrawn from the store as it is a disgrace to the brand and has probably been the principal reason for people choosing iPad or Android rather than a windows tablet or phone. Enough of my rant. There is really no excuse not to put the focus back onto windows platforms.
0 -
I have really been enjoying this thread debate today.
Yes - there's been an arresting dynamic to it.
I would seriously consider moving to Windows Phone myself if a good Faithlife app existed for the OS.
I sympathize with those users with Windows phones who lack an app from Faithlife. I hoped for over a decade that Logos would produce an app for Windows Mobile (Windows CE) or Palm OS that would merely allow customers to read book resources. It seemed to me then an obvious opportunity to grow the enterprise.
I'm not really second guessing the decision not to produce an app then and not second guessing the current decision regarding Windows Phone.
I do think that there are more potential users for a Universal Windows app than Mark Barnes seems to allow. I have read more than a few threads from owners of minimally specified hardware with Windows 8/8.1, both RT and the full version. These Faithlife customers would like to have access to their libraries on these devices.
By the way, I presume you know a simple Logos Bible app already exists for Windows 8/8.1?
Yes - but it is in human nature to want more.
"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963
0 -
The "some church in Oklahoma" has plowed more than $20million into developing it.
Wow. Still the investment is worth it, if some poor soul in North Korea can get past the government firewall and gain access to the Scriptures.
0 -
There is really no excuse not to put the focus back onto windows platforms.
Windows 8 is itself part of the "excuse" at the moment. It fallen so far below expectations, that hardly anyone has developed modern apps for it. Hopefully Windows 10 will fix that, and create the demand that is barely there at the moment.
I do think that there are more potential users for a Universal Windows app than Mark Barnes seems to allow. I have read more than a few threads from owners of minimally specified hardware with Windows 8/8.1, both RT and the full version.
Does anyone actually use RT? Sales figures have been pitiful for that platform (even worse than Windows phone).
But you're right about people with very minimal hardware. A 'modern app' would have some advantage for them.
For other users, I personally feel it would be better to improve touch on the desktop app, rather than create a new app — although if Windows 10 takes off and more people buy Windows tablets, I may feel differently.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
0 -
Thanks Mark, that's an interesting comment about RT. The original surface RT and the Surface 2RT are both excellent tablets for those among us who have limited uses for a laptop and want a simpler device. Things such as email, keeping in touch with family through Facebook, YouTube, streaming video and audio both over the home network and online are all accomplished with ease on those much maligned windows tablets. For the senior citizens among my family and friends they are simply perfect and at a price that no one else can match. The marketing of these tablets by Microsoft was appalling, their benefits are amazing, windows with no viruses awesome. There is a very strong market for second hand RT tablets here on Ebay with prices holding well. Enough of that rant. The Logos windows app is a disgrace to the brand. My wife and friends have to use the other beautiful Bible apps on the platform whilst rubbishing the Logos Bible app to me. As for windows phone, we all have Nokia Lumia phones and are faced with the same problems. The Lumia 520 entry level phone is probably the best selling phone in its class here. Once again we have the same problem. Windows 10 can't come soon enough for me. My concern is that having spent thousands on a Logos library over the years I cannot just drop it and change brands. Logos has us captured and in my opinion is abusing that position by not supporting the latest Windows features and platforms.
0 -
Yes, I would love to see a more robust app, but I'd even more like to see the full desktop version to be more touch friendly. If that happens, I have little need for a separate app.
Exactly. My hope was that Logos 6 will already be that. Well, I still hope one of the 2 options will happen - or both [:)]
1... Separate so called METRO application working on all Windows platforms
2... Touch-enabled main Logos 6 program
I would prefer #1 solution because I use Windows 8.1 notebooks and also Lumia 830 phone.
Bohuslav
0 -
I'd like to add my voice to those who want a universal app ASAP. I've been using Logos for years and I love it. I only wish that I could use it in tablet mode (yes, I have the basic app) and on my phone.
Surface Pro 3 is my everyday computer. I use it as a desktop, a laptop and a tablet. Constantly. Logos really shines in the desktop mode, works good in the laptop mode but is not very good in tablet mode (though I still use the pen to navigate ok).
Mark, I wish Logos had kept up with Windows as it evolved. Windows 8 and 8.1 is not bad at all. It has been a disappointment in the Marketplace but there is still a huge number of actual users. Beyond this, and more to the point, the PC market is doing ok and even showed signs of recovery. Windows 8.1 is doing ok too. See http://winsupersite.com/hardware/yes-pc-market-recovered-2014.
I'm afraid that Logos will leave Windows users without a universal app for more than a year from now. Is there any news on the Windows 10 development front? Is Logos going to get an app out there for Windows 10 shortly after launch? That would be great. Or, is Logos going to wait to see how the market goes as it did for Windows 8/8.1?
Thanks for interacting on this forum.
0 -
If you'd like to indicate your interest in—and support for—a Universal Windows App for Logos Bible Software, place a bid on this new Community Pricing product: https://www.logos.com/product/50060/windows-universal-bible-app
0 -
I have been a Logos user for a very long time, and I have spent a tremendous amount of money on Logos products. Over the years I have recommended Logos to my friends, and have argued how much better the platform is than anything else out there. However, I have been incredibly disappointed with the lack of Windows Phone support. I am a Windows user to the core. I have tried to use and love Macs, but I just don't like them. All this talk about Mac vs. PC. vs. Android is basically preferences. They are all good platforms. I have my entire tech life integrated into Windows platforms, and I am not going to move from Windows to a Mac or Android device for Logos. If Logos wants to hold me as a customer, they will need to develop a fully functional app for Windows Mobile devices.
I was sitting in church a couple weeks ago, frustrated and embarrassed that I had to use YouVersion as my Bible software. Logos, you are the top game in town for serious study. But, you will lose me if you don't develop an app for Windows Mobile.
0 -
Is this related to the discussion above?
Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 11
0 -
Is this related to the discussion above?
Yes. It is the associated blog post connected to the link Bradley provided above. Also found in a Logos Talk article.
0 -
I'm getting sad now. I'm looking forward to a Windows Phone app, but the production cost graph has barely moved... That could mean either an astronomical cost or a lack of support from the community... Let's make this happen, guys!
0 -
I'm getting sad now. I'm looking forward to a Windows Phone app, but the production cost graph has barely moved... That could mean either an astronomical cost or a lack of support from the community... Let's make this happen, guys!
Something worth considering for those of us who really would like to see this happen: when they first made the community pricing option available, the max you could bid was $38 or so. For everyone that rushed out like I did, that's the max you may have bid. However, they have adjusted things since then, so if you're willing to pay $50 (or all the way up to $90), you can increase your bid now. Worth it to me.
0 -
Well, Microsoft just announced that you can now write Windows apps (any device) using Android Java/C++ or Objective C. This could be interesting.
0 -
I'd really like to hear from FL on this. Does this change their Windows strategy at all?
Dr. Kevin Purcell, Director of Missions
Brushy Mountain Baptist Association0 -
Note I have no interest at all in running a business, but I would not change strategies based on an announcement of intent by a software firm. There is often a disconnect between the intent and the delivered ... and between with delivered and the accepted by the user population.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
0 -
Note that there has been an app in the store for several weeks that has used this method. This is much more than an announcement of intent.0
-
I'd really like to hear from FL on this. Does this change their Windows strategy at all?
It's too soon to tell. We will be evaluating the platform bridges when they become available. I suspect they may be a viable short term solution, but won't be the great user experience we want to deliver. During the announcement at Build, the Android demo failed, and the iOS apps demoed and discussed were games with completely custom UI, from what I can tell.
0
