St, Patrick-who?
An Apostle: any of the original 12 disciples called by Jesus to preach the gospel: Simon Peter, the brothers James and John, Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alpheus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Zealot, Judas Iscariot.
Misprint by Logos:
http://www.logos.com/product/17959/st-patrick-apostle-of-Ireland
Assume BIRTH DATE: c. 385
Just the definition reveals a major typo.
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Or Misdefinition by Room4More
Merriam-Webster:
1: one sent on a mission: as
(a
one of an authoritative New Testament group sent out to preach the gospel and made up especially of Christ's 12 original disciples and Paul
(b the first prominent Christian missionary to a region or group
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Room4more said:
An Apostle: any of the original 12 disciples called by Jesus to preach the gospel: Simon Peter, the brothers James and John, Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alpheus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Zealot, Judas Iscariot.
Misprint by Logos:
http://www.logos.com/product/17959/st-patrick-apostle-of-Ireland
Assume BIRTH DATE: c. 385
Just the definition reveals a major typo.
Whoa!! Whoooaa...
Major disagreement here. Yes, I realize that it is extremely common to insist that "apostle" is a title that can only be rightly applied to the men you named above, but that assertion not only disagrees with Scripture's own usage, it disagrees with common sense. The word means "sent one" (I'm sure we all know that), and it is used in many extra-biblical contexts. Limiting the use of the word to just the ones Yeishuu`a called by name is to onerously misapply the word in an overly-restrictive way.
So, how does one refer to the twelve men who were called by name to be disciples of Yeishuu`a?
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Type "the twelve" into your search box and hit enter...see what you get.
That's what they were called.
The Twelve.
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Given MJ's post and mine, the quesiton is...who sent Patrick? If he wasn't sent, he wasn't an apostle.
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MJ. Smith said:
Or Misdefinition by Room4More
Merriam-Webster:
1: one sent on a mission: as (a
one of an authoritative New Testament group sent out to preach the gospel and made up especially of Christ's 12 original disciples and Paul (b the first prominent Christian missionary to a region or group Interesting, in your desire to prove me wrong you didn't read your own definition.....So how does this definition fit Patrick, he was around then?
[thanks for your supportive definition]
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Room4more said:MJ. Smith said:
Or Misdefinition by Room4More
Merriam-Webster:
1: one sent on a mission: as (a
one of an authoritative New Testament group sent out to preach the gospel and made up especially of Christ's 12 original disciples and Paul (b the first prominent Christian missionary to a region or group Interesting, in your desire to prove me wrong you didn't read your own definition.....So how does this definition fit Patrick, he was around then?
[thanks for your supportive definition]
LOL...so, how are the cherries this year? Sweet, are they? [;)]
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David Paul said:Room4more said:
An Apostle: any of the original 12 disciples called by Jesus to preach the gospel: Simon Peter, the brothers James and John, Andrew, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James the son of Alpheus, Thaddaeus, Simon the Zealot, Judas Iscariot.
Whoa!! Whoooaa...
Major disagreement here. Yes, I realize that it is extremely common to insist that "apostle" is a title that can only be rightly applied to the men you named above, but that assertion not only disagrees with Scripture's own usage, it disagrees with common sense. The word means "sent one" (I'm sure we all know that), and it is used in many extra-biblical contexts. Limiting the use of the word to just the ones Yeishuu`a called by name is to onerously misapply the word in an overly-restrictive way.
So, how does one refer to the twelve men who were called by name to be disciples of Yeishuu`a?
apostle: Mt 10:2; Mk 6:30; Lk 6:13; 9:10; 11:49; 17:5; 22:14; 24:10; Acts 1:2, 26; 2:37, 42, 43; 4:33, 35, 36, 37; 5:2, 12, 18, 29, 40; 6:6; 8:1, 14, 18; 9:27; 11:1; 14:4, 14; 15:2, 4, 6, 22, 23; 16:4; Rom 1:1; 11:13; 16:7; 1 Co 1:1; 4:9; 9:1, 2, 5; 12:28, 29; 15:7, 9 (2); 2 Co 1:1; 11:5, 13; 12:11, 12; Gal 1:1, 17, 19; Eph 1:1; 2:20; 3:5; 4:11; Col 1:1; 1 Th 2:7; 1 Ti 1:1; 2:7; 2 Ti 1:1, 11; Tt 1:1; Heb 3:1; 1 Pe 1:1; 2 Pe 1:1; 3:2; Jude 17; Rev 2:2; 18:20; 21:14
Now prove the Scriptures are wrong, by your highlighted statement above in your quote...?
I can wait....
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Seriously, dude?
[^o)]
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David Paul said:
Seriously, dude?
Seriously - who made him an "Apostle" and that by Biblical definition? Rev 2:2 [seems you have a lot of reading to do....]
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I believe you have a typo in the part emphasized. I've corrected it for you and now will bow out of this OT thread.
Room4more said:1: one sent on a mission: as (a
one of an authoritative New Testament group sent out to preach the gospel and made up especially of Christ's 12 original disciples and Paul (b the first prominent Christian missionary to a region or group Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
I believe you have a typo in the part emphasized. I've corrected it for you and now will bow out of this OT thread.
Room4more said:1: one sent on a mission: as (a
one of an authoritative New Testament group sent out to preach the gospel and made up especially of Christ's 12 original disciples and Paul (b the first prominent Christian missionary to a region or group Ok same question: who made them Apostle's based on the Biblical definition? adding; who are they?
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I think David's question was apropo.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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and more typos, Paul, Matthias, Andronicus, Junias, and of course Jesus Himself, all who are named as apostles in the Scriptures.
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Room4more said:
apostle: Mt 10:2; Mk 6:30; Lk 6:13; 9:10; 11:49; 17:5; 22:14; 24:10; Acts 1:2, 26; 2:37, 42, 43; 4:33, 35, 36, 37; 5:2, 12, 18, 29, 40; 6:6; 8:1, 14, 18; 9:27; 11:1; 14:4, 14; 15:2, 4, 6, 22, 23; 16:4; Rom 1:1; 11:13; 16:7; 1 Co 1:1; 4:9; 9:1, 2, 5; 12:28, 29; 15:7, 9 (2); 2 Co 1:1; 11:5, 13; 12:11, 12; Gal 1:1, 17, 19; Eph 1:1; 2:20; 3:5; 4:11; Col 1:1; 1 Th 2:7; 1 Ti 1:1; 2:7; 2 Ti 1:1, 11; Tt 1:1; Heb 3:1; 1 Pe 1:1; 2 Pe 1:1; 3:2; Jude 17; Rev 2:2; 18:20; 21:14
Now prove the Scriptures are wrong, by your highlighted statement above in your quote...?
You missed two: Phil 2:25 and 2Cor 8:23. In the first the apostle is Epaphroditus who was an apostle (sent with a message) of the church in Phillipi to Paul. You might have missed that one, since it's not usually translated apostle. In the second (2Cor 8:23) the apostles are some anonymous "brothers." You'd need to look at the surrounding context of 2Cor 8, but you'll see that these are not the 12, but as is usually the case, just church members sent on a mission.
In one case (Heb.3:1) Jesus is also called an apostle (i.e., He was sent by God with a message and a mission).
The term then seems to have both a restrictive and a broad sense. The restrictive sense points to the 12 (plus Paul). The broad sense includes Epaphroditus and the anonymous brothers mentioned above. Once we make room for the possibility of a broader sense, then some of the passages you cite above can be seen as possibly referring to this broader group.
EDIT: fixed a type in a scripture reference
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Alex Scott said:
and more typos, Paul, Matthias, Andronicus, Junias, and of course Jesus Himself, all who are named as apostles in the Scriptures.
Paul - a definite Apostle
Matthias - replaced Judas
Andronicus - never stated as an Apostle rather known by the Apostles[mentioned only once]
Junias(Junia) - same verse same as above
so what was the point you were attempting to make?
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... and of course there was Barnabas and Epaphroditus.
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Richard DeRuiter said:Room4more said:
apostle: Mt 10:2; Mk 6:30; Lk 6:13; 9:10; 11:49; 17:5; 22:14; 24:10; Acts 1:2, 26; 2:37, 42, 43; 4:33, 35, 36, 37; 5:2, 12, 18, 29, 40; 6:6; 8:1, 14, 18; 9:27; 11:1; 14:4, 14; 15:2, 4, 6, 22, 23; 16:4; Rom 1:1; 11:13; 16:7; 1 Co 1:1; 4:9; 9:1, 2, 5; 12:28, 29; 15:7, 9 (2); 2 Co 1:1; 11:5, 13; 12:11, 12; Gal 1:1, 17, 19; Eph 1:1; 2:20; 3:5; 4:11; Col 1:1; 1 Th 2:7; 1 Ti 1:1; 2:7; 2 Ti 1:1, 11; Tt 1:1; Heb 3:1; 1 Pe 1:1; 2 Pe 1:1; 3:2; Jude 17; Rev 2:2; 18:20; 21:14
Now prove the Scriptures are wrong, by your highlighted statement above in your quote...?
You missed two: Phil 2:25 and 2Cor 8:23. In the first the apostle is Epaphroditus who was an apostle (sent with a message) of the church in Phillipi to Paul. You might have missed that one, since it's not usually translated apostle. In the second (2Cor 8:23) the apostles are some anonymous "brothers." You'd need to look at the surrounding context of 2Cor 8, but you'll see that these are not the 12, but as is usually the case, just church members sent on a mission.
In one case (Heb.3:1) Jesus is also called an apostle (i.e., He was sent by God with a message and a mission).
The term then seems to have both a restrictive and a broad sense. The restrictive sense points to the 12 (plus Paul). The broad sense includes Epaphroditus and the anonymous brothers mentioned above. Once we make room for the possibility of a broader sense, then some of the passages you cite above can be seen as possibly referring to this broader group.
EDIT: fixed a type in a scripture reference
Thanks Richard[seems to be a typo in the resource itself, I will report it, missed that one.], now we seem to be getting somewhere.
Epaphroditus, is only mention in Phil, but never confirmed as an Apostle by true Biblical definition. But I do believe that Paul was making a very clear and distinctive point by the variant and by not using the Apostleship that was given to him. He apparently saw/understood the difference.
Apparently we do not....
R4m
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Room4more said:
so what was the point you were attempting to make?
Just that you're dead wrong, and if you must try to generate controversy, at least pick a subject where the Scriptures don't so obviously contradict you.
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Alex Scott said:Room4more said:
so what was the point you were attempting to make?
Just that you're dead wrong, and if you must try to generate controversy, at least pick a subject where the Scriptures don't so obviously contradict you.
But they haven't yet and there are only 4 verses that deal directly with "Apostleship" - and they seem pretty clear as to the position.
Thanks for the comment.
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Richard,
Yes we are apostles[messengers/ambassadors] in the broader sense that we are to Proclaim the Gospel, but No, not Apostle's in the sense that we have physically seen/been with/ Christ.
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Ok well I guess I need to leave you with something to do:
All I wanted to know was who gave Patrick the title of Apostle? was it the church-which church and why? Based on the Biblical definition he could not have been appointed an Apostle, based on the broader sense he should have been an apostle.
mercy, based on the flow of the conversation I am glad that I didn't post my first thought: Who said he was a Saint, and from whom did he get the title?
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R4m
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Room4more said:David Paul said:
Seriously, dude?
Seriously - who made him an "Apostle" and that by Biblical definition? Rev 2:2 [seems you have a lot of reading to do....]
Actually, you need to read something yourself, like the post a few inches above this one where I say that unless Patrick was sent, he wasn't an apostle...
Room4more said:Ok same question: who made them Apostle's based on the Biblical definition? adding; who are they?
Okay, class...pay attention. What we have here is a textbook case of petitio principii, which is a term that essentially means "assuming what must be proved" (which logicians illogically call "begging the question"). You see, THERE IS NO BIBLICAL DEFINITION of the word "apostle". Anyone who thinks there is such a definition in the Bible is assuming that there is because they have personally settled on what "apostle" means, and they likewise assume that they got their definition from the Scriptures. In reality they got their so-called "definition" from conversations and writings about the Bible.
These ideas are really just deductions and inferences that people make about the term and to whom and where and how it can be applied. Most of this is awkward over-reaching at best...twisting Scripture at worst.
To the question "who made them (A)postles", the answer is ANYONE and WHOEVER sent them...and the senders could be literally anyone...because, ANYONE who is sent by ANYBODY is an apostle. Now, let me field a couple of questions I know are percolating in the peanut gallery--"But what if they aren't REALLY apostles?!?" But, if they were sent--THEY ARE. "But what if they aren't really TRUE apostles!?!?" Again, if they were sent, they are apostles, and if they are apostles, they must be true apostles, because they (again) meet the ONLY required necessary element required, which is "having been sent". They truly are apostles.
There is a problem with calling a person either "a false prophet" or "a false apostle" when that person speaks things that aren't true. Someone might conclude that the person is simply a prophet or apostle who carries and speaks a false message. In addition, someone could conclude that the person is not really a prophet or an apostle at all. The reason this could be a problem is because the person COULD be sent by YHWH with a deliberately false message, as a test. This is seen in both Deut. 13 & 2 Thes. 2, and we aren't even directly touching on YHWH commissioning evil and lying spirits to do His bidding as we see in Samuel and Kings. Such an individual would thus be truly sent by YHWH (thus really BE an apostle), but speak falsehood.
Room4more said:David Paul said:Whoa!! Whoooaa...
Major disagreement here. Yes, I realize that it is extremely common to insist that "apostle" is a title that can only be rightly applied to the men you named above, but that assertion not only disagrees with Scripture's own usage, it disagrees with common sense. The word means "sent one" (I'm sure we all know that), and it is used in many extra-biblical contexts. Limiting the use of the word to just the ones Yeishuu`a called by name is to onerously misapply the word in an overly-restrictive way.
So, how does one refer to the twelve men who were called by name to be disciples of Yeishuu`a?
apostle: Mt 10:2; Mk 6:30; Lk 6:13; 9:10; 11:49; 17:5; 22:14; 24:10; Acts 1:2, 26; 2:37, 42, 43; 4:33, 35, 36, 37; 5:2, 12, 18, 29, 40; 6:6; 8:1, 14, 18; 9:27; 11:1; 14:4, 14; 15:2, 4, 6, 22, 23; 16:4; Rom 1:1; 11:13; 16:7; 1 Co 1:1; 4:9; 9:1, 2, 5; 12:28, 29; 15:7, 9 (2); 2 Co 1:1; 11:5, 13; 12:11, 12; Gal 1:1, 17, 19; Eph 1:1; 2:20; 3:5; 4:11; Col 1:1; 1 Th 2:7; 1 Ti 1:1; 2:7; 2 Ti 1:1, 11; Tt 1:1; Heb 3:1; 1 Pe 1:1; 2 Pe 1:1; 3:2; Jude 17; Rev 2:2; 18:20; 21:14
Now prove the Scriptures are wrong, by your highlighted statement above in your quote...?
I can wait....
MJ already addressed your cherry-picking of the definition she posted. Now I will address your attempt to cherry-pick what I said. I NEVER said that the Twelve aren't apostles, which your jumble of verses seems to imply. I said that the Twelve are NOT the ONLY ones who can be rightly called apostles. (Go ahead, look up there. See? That's what I said.) By bolding just a section of my comment, you seem to intentionally ignore what else was said, just as was the case with MJ's definition. That's kinda scary, dude. Not to me...for you. You can't just play fast and loose that way with Scripture. I realize you think you are defending a principle, but you're really defending the indefensible. There is NOTHING in Acts 1 that ties the use of "apostle" as an exclusive concept or term to be forever and only associated with the Twelve. People who think or say there is are deluding themselves.
While others have in the interim posted similar points, I end this post with...
The NT does not restrict the term “apostle” to the Twelve selected by Jesus. In Heb. 3:1 Jesus himself is called “the apostle and high priest of our confession”; this fits with Jesus’ references to himself as the one “sent” by God (Matt. 15:24; Mark 9:37; Luke 9:48; John 3:17, 34; cf. Luke 10:22; Matt. 11:27). In Gal. 1:19 Paul implies that James, the brother of Jesus, was an apostle (cf. 1 Cor. 9:5), and in 1 Cor. 15:9 Paul refers to himself as an apostle (cf. 9:1; 2 Cor. 11:5; Gal. 1:1). In Acts 14:14 Luke refers to Barnabas and Paul as apostles, and in Rom. 16:7 Paul implies that Andronicus and Junias were apostles at Rome. (Perhaps the latter were husband and wife.)
Moser, P. K. (2000). Apostle. In D. N. Freedman, A. C. Myers & A. B. Beck (Eds.), Eerdmans Dictionary of the Bible (D. N. Freedman, A. C. Myers & A. B. Beck, Ed.) (78). Grand Rapids, MI: W.B. Eerdmans.
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David, In short this I already knew but thanks all the same. But you still need to deal with the 4(5) verses that speak directly to "Apostleship" and what it states.
There is a difference.
Since you seem to think that this is just gibberish, then when you go to your respective church, walk up to your Pastor/preacher and greet him as 'Apostle so-so'. and listen to what he says, if he is a learned man - he may correct you. if not - no harm done.
{{EDIT: maybe a search for the "Qualifications of an Apostle" is in order..
The word ‘witness’ is applied almost exclusively to the apostles in Acts, though related terms are used in connection with the ministry of others. The apostles occupy a unique place in history as witnesses of Christ because of the time they spent with him, especially after his resurrection, and because of their direct commissioning by him. The narrative concerning the appointment of Matthias makes it clear that in Luke’s view such qualifications are critical for apostleship (1:21–26)......}}
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Thanks MJ, yes, we are all saints. maybe we should start referring to one another as Saint so-so, hmmm 'Saint Richard', does roll off the tongue smoothly....
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Since I'm 1/4 Finnish and only 1/8 Irish, let's switch the conversation to the more important saint, St. Urho
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Room4more said:
oohhh lets not forget saint Nick
Hmmm, my delightful mother-in-law is half-Greek, half-French ... I'll leave St. Nick for her[;)]
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MJ. Smith said:Room4more said:
oohhh lets not forget saint Nick
Hmmm, my delightful mother-in-law is half-Greek, half-French ... I'll leave St. Nick for her
Done.
hey I got some notes to finish...... I will probably be up a few more hours-spell check and all, I will check back. I am curious to read what david paul's searches and posts.
R4m
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Room4more said:
David, In short this I already knew but thanks all the same. But you still need to deal with the 4(5) verses that speak directly to "Apostleship" and what it states.
There is a difference.
Since you seem to think that this is just gibberish, then when you go to your respective church, walk up to your Pastor/preacher and greet him as 'Apostle so-so'. and listen to what he says, if he is a learned man - he may correct you. if not - no harm done.
It is interesting that you posted what you said in your comment at the top of this page, because I was coming back here to address that very issue. In my opinion, based on the common AND the Biblical usage of the term "apostle", there is no good reason to capitalize the word (unless you are using it in the title of a book or some such). Do we call prophets the Prophet Isaiah, the Prophet Elijah, Jeremiah the Prophet, etc.? Rightfully, no. We speak of the prophet Daniel.
In the same way, I assert that it is a false concept to say there is a difference between "apostle" and "Apostle". This may buck many traditions, but we should speak of Peter the apostle and not of Paul the Apostle, and we should speak of the apostle Jacob (James). The only Apostle is Yeishuu`a, and yet even as I say that, there are some who don't bother capitalizing adjectives and pronouns associated with Him.
Regarding "(A)postleship", you are again infusing meaning into a term that it simply does not have. There is zero cause for concluding that the term carries anything that logically, much less necessarily, requires the capitalization of the role. Contrary to what centuries of blather may insist, apostle, like prophet, is NOT AN OFFICE, it is a burden...it is a role.
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"APOSTLE The title commonly used in the New Testament to denote the twelve closest disciples of Christ. Aside from the Twelve chosen by Christ (Acts 14:4; 2 Cor 8:23; Phil 2:25), the title was also used for Christ himself as the One sent by the Father (Heb 3:1), and for those sent by churches (Acts 1:21-22; 2 Cor 12:12; cf. Rom 15:19; Acts 5:12; 2 Pet 3:2). The existence of other apostles, however, in no way denigrated or compromised the unique place of the Twelve as the disciples whom Christ chose to be witnesses of the Resurrection and who were solemnly commissioned by the risen Jesus to proclaim the Gospel and to organize the Kingdom of God on earth" [emphasis added](CCC 765) (Hahn 2009, 58).
St. Patrick, after returning from six years of captivity (among the pagans of Ireland), began his studies for the priesthood; was ordained by St. Germanus, Bishop of Auxerre; later became a bishop himself and was sent by Pope Celestine I to take the Gospel to Ireland. Therefore, he could be referred to as an apostle as his mission was "in the service of Jesus Christ" (Hahn 2009, 59).
Again, this does not in any way lessen the commission of the Twelve received directly from Christ.
Hahn, Scott. Catholic Bible Dictionary. New York: Doubleday, 2009. (accessed March 17, 2013).
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David, well yes and no;
In the one referral I gave the Scriptures are making it clear what the difference is and why. I do believe that takes precedence over what we want.
There is a Biblical common, and a distinctive, to what an 'Apostle' and apostle is/are: We are all apostles with the commission to carry the message, yet the Apostles were/are the Pillars of that message and with it came a special calling and commission, to wit we do not today.
There is no false concept when understanding the precept as laid out in the Scriptures, to wit I gave one referral. This does, of itself, give credence that there is a comparative difference and does make it clear as to wherein this lies.
I infuse nothing but based on one referral there does seem to be clear Scriptural evidence that the Scriptures state the difference, are we going to super-cede this by our lack of understanding or desire to be politically correct? yet we are all apostles in the Biblical common sense but not all are deemed by Scripture as Apostle's. I do agree that it is not an office, but a burden - well if that is what it is then I guess that is what it is; but I never thought so....at least not by way of Scripture.
As towards the proper form, well that leaves much to be desired, as towards Patrick, I read up on him many years ago and his 'apostleship' was given by the church - big difference. Why, well I leave that for you to discover.......
see already others are checking the credibility...Thank-you, Joseph[aka 117269].
R4m
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11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, (Eph 4:11)
having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, (Eph 2:20)And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the best gifts. And yet I show you a more excellent way. (1 Co 12:28–31)
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Of course one could embrace Room4More's definition (though somewhat troublesome theologically, since it immediately wipes out Paul, or if accepts Paul, also accepts anyone else with a claimed Jesus-vision). But more specifically it limits Jesus' evangelistic instructions to 'the 11' (some of whom, Matthew carefully points out, 'doubted').
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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apostle (Gk., one who is sent) 1. One of the 12 disciples chosen by Christ: Peter, James, John, Andrew, Thomas, James the Less, Jude, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Simon, and Judas (replaced by Matthias). Paul claimed the title for himself on the basis of a direct commission from the risen Christ (Rom. 1:1; Gal. 1:1) and used it also of James, the Lord’s brother (Gal. 1:19).2. The highest of the five ecclesiastical offices or titles in the New Testament, the other four being prophet, teacher, evangelist, and pastor.
3. The leader of a first Christian mission to a country, such as: Patrick, the apostle of Ireland; Cyril and Methodius, the apostles of the Slavs; Frumentius, apostle of Abyssinians; Felix Naif, apostle of the Alps; Juan de Avila, apostle of Andalusia; Hubert, apostle of Ardennes; Gregory the Illuminator, apostle of Armenia; Jose de Anchieta, apostle of Brazil; Augustine, apostle of England; Denis, apostle of France; Willibrord, apostle of Frisians; Martin of Tours, apostle of Gaul; Paul, apostle to the Gentiles; Boniface, apostle of Germany; Columba, apostle of Scotland; King Stephen, apostle of Hungary; John Eliot, apostle to the Native Americans; Francis Xavier, apostle to the Indies; Ansgar, apostle to the North; Alonso de Barcena, apostle of Peru; Ninian, apostle to the Picts; James the Great, apostle of Spain; and David, apostle of Wales.
Kurian, G. T. (2001). Nelson’s new Christian dictionary: The authoritative resource on the Christian world. Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson Publishers.God Bless
Graham
Pastor - NTCOG Basingstoke
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Why not run a topic guide on the word "apostle" and see what it yields?
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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And for our next topic of argument, "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"
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Alan Charles Gielczyk said:
And for our next topic of argument, "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?"
As many as the Camels that travel through the eye of a needle.
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Lynden Williams said:
Why not run a topic guide on the word "apostle" and see what it yields?
That's a good idea, why not post your sorted results and make an educated comment........this way we can read of who are learning and who are, well lets just say present and at the back of the room snickering like.......
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DMB said:
Of course one could embrace Room4More's definition (though somewhat troublesome theologically, since it immediately wipes out Paul, or if accepts Paul, also accepts anyone else with a claimed Jesus-vision). But more specifically it limits Jesus' evangelistic instructions to 'the 11' (some of whom, Matthew carefully points out, 'doubted').
Thanks for the comment. So you think that the Scriptures present troublesome theology [got to admit that makes things a little clearer for me about you].
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I'd like to say two things:
1) Please keep your heart in check as you post, there is no need for us to get hasty and quarrelsome.
2) I thought the difference was between little a and big A apostle - Big A Apostle being those who have seen Christ (twelve minus Judas plus Matthias and then Paul), little a being...the rest of us.
Rev. Ben Hein
Shady Grove Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Reformed Theological Seminary, M.Div (2017)
www.shadygrovepca.org
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Ben Hein said:
I'd like to say two things:
2) I thought the difference was between little a and big A apostle - Big A Apostle being those who have seen Christ (twelve minus Judas plus Matthias and then Paul), little a being...the rest of us.
You are absolutely correct. Thank-you Ben.
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R4M, you are ignoring the obvious. The Scripture is the Word of God. It is not a handbook on English usage in the 21st century. It is quite possible for a word to have a technical or specialized use in Scripture and have broader usage outside Scripture.An example, I use the English word "word" for what is given to contestants in a spelling bee. I do not apply the same meaning when I read John 1:1. Everyone is doing a great job of responding to you without falling into an irrelevant theological discussion; I'm proud of the forums. But who da thunk the title of a Logos collection would generate 40+ posts?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
R4M, you are ignoring the obvious. The Scripture is the Word of God. It is not a handbook on English usage in the 21st century. It is quite possible for a word to have a technical or specialized use in Scripture and have broader usage outside Scripture.An example, I use the English word "word" for what is given to contestants in a spelling bee. I do not apply the same meaning when I read John 1:1. Everyone is doing a great job of responding to you without falling into an irrelevant theological discussion; I'm proud of the forums.
Thanks, but John 1;1 is an entirely different subject/topic all to itself. Altho, it would be an interesting theological discussion.
Currently we are dealing with the simplification to which the Scriptures, by God's design, designate the difference between an Apostle and an apostle is/are.
Really the subject is not that difficult to understand by way of the Scriptures, there is a Designated group that were the Apostle's and then there is the rest who are all apostles.....why is that hard to grasp by such learned and knowledgeable people?
R4m.
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I think I'm starting to understand Room4More's point. It's not so obvious in the english translations, but if you look at the greek manuscripts, it's clearly different (the first one being in the gospels and some of Paul's text; the lower one being 'the others').
.
."If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Room4more said:
why is that hard to grasp by such learned and knowledgeable people?
Your point has been understood from the beginning. But 1st century Greek is not a style manual for 21st century English. The capitalization rules for titles are not the same as for general prose in 21st century English. Logos uses the capital in 2 ways in the product page you referenced:
- as part of a product title
- once as a quotation where I would assume they are matching the source of the quote.
Neither of these uses implies anything about how Logos would handle the term in standard prose (in contrast to in a title).
So the direct answer to your question is: "Your point is easily grasped. Thank you for considering us learned and knowledgeable. Nonetheless, I find your point, while accurate, inapplicable to the Logos product page."
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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The earliest Greek manuscripts we have are the Uncials and Papyri. While admittedly not an expert in them, my understanding is that they did not have separate UPPER and lower cases. Therefore, it seems to be a huge stretch to say that biblically the Twelve are Apostles, yet Paul is only an apostle. The proposed distinction seems based on no textual difference, and, at best seems to be fitting our concepts into the biblical text, IMHO.
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze
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DMB said:
I think I'm starting to understand Room4More's point. It's not so obvious in the english translations, but if you look at the greek manuscripts, it's clearly different (the first one being in the gospels and some of Paul's text; the lower one being 'the others').
.
.Go here http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx?=Submit Query&book=37&lid=en&side=r&zoomSlider=0 (I think you'll need to copy the URL including the "slider" option then drag the slider to ~ the 3rd detent from the top and move the page to the upper left corner. You will see
ΠΑΥΛΟϹΔΟΥΛΟϹΙΥ̅
ΧΥ̅ΚΛΗΤΟϹΑΠΟϹΤο
ΛΟϹ…The early mss were uncials, i.e., all letters were of one size—capitals.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Things one learns, creating the 'Would you believe ...?' (Get Smart) .... most of my text editors won't even let you differentiate the greek letters. Notepad was the worst.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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George Somsel said:DMB said:
I think I'm starting to understand Room4More's point. It's not so obvious in the english translations, but if you look at the greek manuscripts, it's clearly different (the first one being in the gospels and some of Paul's text; the lower one being 'the others').
.
.Go here http://codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx?=Submit Query&book=37&lid=en&side=r&zoomSlider=0 (I think you'll need to copy the URL including the "slider" option then drag the slider to ~ the 3rd detent from the top and move the page to the upper left corner. You will see
ΠΑΥΛΟϹΔΟΥΛΟϹΙΥ̅
ΧΥ̅ΚΛΗΤΟϹΑΠΟϹΤο
ΛΟϹ…The early mss were uncials, i.e., all letters were of one size—capitals.
Someone didn't read the sarcasm :-p
Rev. Ben Hein
Shady Grove Presbyterian Church (PCA)
Reformed Theological Seminary, M.Div (2017)
www.shadygrovepca.org
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