John Piper Sermon collection vs. Tim Keller collection update
I just read Logos' blog post bragging about their update of the Tim Keller sermon collection which reminded me that The John Piper collection hasn't seen an update in years although it was supposed to be updated "regularly."Even worse, I see that it has now been renamed the "The John Piper Sermon Manuscript Library (1980–2009)" Does this mean the promised updates will never happen? Read their blog post and tell me it's not over the top, especially given their totally dropping the ball on the Piper collection.
http://blog.logos.com/2013/04/free-update-tim-keller-sermon-archive/
http://www.logos.com/product/8601/the-john-piper-sermon-manuscript-library
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I am wondering the same thing.
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I don't know what was promised… the "free update" for the Tim Keller collection is probably a misnomer in my opinion. It wasn't "free," but rather it was part of what was promised. Again, I don't know what was promised, and am not trying to make a value statement one way or the other, but "regularly" and "indefinitely" aren't the same thing. It would certainly be disappointing if you purchased the resource while it was still being promised to be updated, but that had since ceased. [:S]
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alabama24 said:
I don't know what was promised…
The way I remember it there were supposed to be updates included with John Piper's sermon collection. The blog says,
"One of the benefits of Logos is that you always have the latest updates to all your resources. Sometimes the updates are small and under the hood. We’re guessing you don’t notice..."
Maybe we need to look in the trunk under the spare tire for Piper's update. (That is the boot for my UK friends [;)].)
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Now that Piper's pastoral ministry is over, now would be a perfect time to update and finish off the collection. Not that he won't be preaching anymore, but the bulk of value that the collection offers would be there. I bought the set because it was valuable for the price as it was. But I also bought it because of the promise of future updates when I bought it--I don't think one update has come down the pipe. Logos, will you keep your word?
I don't think we need to worry as much with the Tim Keller archive. They have discreet chunks they're working on (1989–1993, 1994–1998, 1999–2004, 2004–2009, and 2010–2011) and they didn't promise indefinite updates. I have faith that Logos will continue to offer downloads over the next year or two. It also wouldn't surprise me to see update products offered in future years as he continues to preach. That would not seem dishonest to me (it would if they did that with Piper's sermons).
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Super Tramp said:
The way I remember it there were supposed to be updates included with John Piper's sermon collection.
I know… that is what the OP stated… but what updates were promised or implied? Should users have anticipated updates indefinitely? [I don't know… I never saw the copy]
Super Tramp said:The blog says, "One of the benefits of Logos is that you always have the latest updates to all your resources."
Those "updates" don't refer to update of content… it refers to updates of the files (i.e. new tagging, typo fixes, etc.).
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William Gabriel said:
But I also bought it because of the promise of future updates when I bought it--I don't think one update has come down the pipe. Logos, will you keep your word?
This is the real question for me. What was promised and has it been fulfilled. If not, why?
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Here are the key features from the web archive for May 14, 2012
Key Features
- 1,174 John Piper sermon manuscripts—that's more than 29 years of insight!
- Free regular updates of future John Piper sermon manuscripts
- Also includes the Holy Bible, English Standard Version™
- Updated with more sermons in June, 2008!
- Functions as a roughly 5,000 page commentary
I read this as new sermons will be added.
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Ronald Quick said:
I read this as new sermons will be added.
I would read it the same way. I believe Logos needs to explain this. It may have been inadvertent (Old copy), but if this promise was still left up on the website, Logos needs to make it right (or at least explain why they can't / shouldn't).
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By the way, I bought the Piper Sermon Collection through a third party seller. If Logos does update Piper's sermon will I get the update?
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alabama24 said:William Gabriel said:
But I also bought it because of the promise of future updates when I bought it--I don't think one update has come down the pipe. Logos, will you keep your word?
This is the real question for me. What was promised and has it been fulfilled. If not, why?
You'll see that Ronald Quick found the verbiage I vaguely remembered. It's interesting that Logos has changed their copy.
As I'm a relatively latecomer to Logos (bought v4 in Dec 2011), I bought Piper's sermons on 3/1/12 with the hope I'd get more based on my understanding of the product on the website. I do not believe any updates have come in that time. A quick check of my Library shows that I have indeed not received any updates since I bought it.
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Ronald Quick said:
By the way, I bought the Piper Sermon Collection through a third party seller. If Logos does update Piper's sermon will I get the update?
If you have it available in Logos4/5 with your current user ID, and you allow synchronization and updates, the answer is "Yes."
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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alabama24 said:
Those "updates" don't refer to update of content… it refers to updates of the files (i.e. new tagging, typo fixes, etc.).
Yeah, I know. The sarcasm was in the rest of my post:
Super Tramp said:Sometimes the updates are small and under the hood. We’re guessing you don’t notice..."
Maybe we need to look in the trunk under the spare tire for Piper's update.
My comment was aimed at the fact Logos did not ship any updates to John Piper's sermons. All development seemed to cease when word got out the sermons were free on Piper's website.
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alabama24 said:
I would read it the same way. I believe Logos needs to explain this. It may have been inadvertent (Old copy), but if this promise was still left up on the website, Logos needs to make it right (or at least explain why they can't / shouldn't).
Dan Pritchet commented on this issue in 2010. Desiring God is the publisher for this resource and it was DG who compiles, edits and makes the sermon manuscripts available. Logos has no control over when this happens - they are just the retailer - and are simply passing on the promise from the publisher.
I, too, am very much looking forward to the completion of this resource and can only hope that the conclusion of Piper's vocational ministry will bring this about.
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Dave Moser said:
Dan Pritchet commented on this issue in 2010.
But the timeline doesn't add up. The copy listed above was available on the Logos website until... (sometime last year?) Dan's response was in 2010. It seems like this resource is now "complete" since it is being advertised as through 2009.
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alabama24 said:
It seems like this resource is now "complete" since it is being advertised as through 2009.
I misunderstood the complaint. You're saying that at the time of purchase we were promised sermon updates for his entire ministry but now they've capped that at 2009?
I'm not a fan of that.
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Dave Moser said:
You're saying that at the time of purchase we were promised sermon updates for his entire ministry
No, I'm not saying that. If you re-read just my posts in this thread, you will see a progression. Originally, I didn't know what was "promised." From your link, I understand more now (thanks!). However, the issue (in my mind) is that Logos website advertised the resource as still having more updates coming, yet that was not the case. I <now> understand that this was a third party resource, and things were beyond their control… but they should have taken down the advertising.
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alabama24 said:Dave Moser said:
You're saying that at the time of purchase we were promised sermon updates for his entire ministry
No, I'm not saying that. If you re-read just my posts in this thread, you will see a progression. Originally, I didn't know what was "promised." From your link, I understand more now (thanks!). However, the issue (in my mind) is that Logos website advertised the resource as still having more updates coming, yet that was not the case. I <now> understand that this was a third party resource, and things were beyond their control… but they should have taken down the advertising.
Logos can still do right by their customers. All the sermons are publicly available. They just need to invest in tagging, like it's a CP project.
All they have to do is go here (http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/sermons/by-date) download the manuscripts, tag and release. I'm sure they'll have to get permission as well, but given that the original intention was to give Logos users all of Piper's sermons, that shouldn't be a problem.
I'll even provide the program* to download the manuscript text if they want. Then they can outsource the tagging the way they do for all their other projects.
*By the way, I'm entirely serious about this. If there's a format that Logos wants/needs the sermon text to be in, I'll get it there free of charge.
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Ronald Quick said:
By the way, I bought the Piper Sermon Collection through a third party seller. If Logos does update Piper's sermon will I get the update?
I'm sorry, may I ask from where.. I'm very interested.
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William Gabriel said:
Then they can outsource the tagging the way they do for all their other projects.
I am under the impression most of this is done in-house.
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mike said:
I'm sorry, may I ask from where.. I'm very interested.
We aren't really supposed to direct people to other sites… sorry! (I tried looking too and couldn't find any). [:S]
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I cannot find it on from where I purchased it either. I guess they don't sell it anymore. I purchased it in June 2010 - so it has been several years.
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Just to keep everything strait, since the John Piper collection of sermons was released, there have been two updates. I am hoping for a third to bring us up to date.
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I'm hoping too.
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I just got back from my otolaryngologist and he says things should clear up as soon as Logos provides an update. I've been having trouble with my hearing due to the deafening silence.
Tom
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Desiring God's big conference is here in MN. Piper controls his material. The question is will he release and give permission for the tagging. Question 2 will Bob and Logos approve the project. Question 3 what was promised in the legal language and therefore who pays?
Answer or attempt in good faith respond to the questions. Let the light shine.
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