QSEARCHING TOPIC

Hello, I have the Logos4 Gold Library, and have been a Logos owner for two years, however I am just now beginning to use it. I am 55yo and in college again with one semester to first BA as Substance Abuse Counselor; I begin Grad school next year and will pursue Master's Degree in Biblical Counseling.

I am wanting to find out about eye witness followers or disciples of Jesus OR during the first century who were literate. I am writing a paper challenging the two source theory and the Q question and the instructor IS a supporter of the two-source,Q, theory from the Jesus Seminars.

He, the professor, has challenged one of my assertions that Christ would have had followers during his active ministry who were learned or who could have at least transcribed some of the episodes of Christ's mission. The professor says that ALL the disciples were "illiterate galilean peasants." So he wants me to reference my statement that some of the disciples might have recorded notes or records of the events that they witnessed, OR that some of the larger group overall would certainly have attempted the same. If not during Christ's life here, but certainly after penecost.

I am hopeful that someone might direct me to a search that will open me to locations to support my theory.

Thanks, Charles

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MJ. Smith

One thing to bear in mind is that reading and writing were treated as two separate skills. Evidence that the disciples read would not imply that they could also write. I don't think you will find any unambigious references to anyone among the apostles or the "crowd" making written records. Your best chance would be to look through early non-canonical materials.

Charles L Dick, Jr, MS, LADC-MH-c, CMA

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/54751#Comment_54751

Thanks, I kind of figured on not much success with specific individuals, however, your comment prompted this: What about Lazarus, or the Pharisees that secretly followed Jesus, or any first century believers from the original missionary trips. Not by name, but by area, profession, lifestyle, etc.

Any ideas on that?

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/54761#Comment_54761

Hi Charles,

If unambiguous evidence existed to disprove the 2-source & Q theories, it'd already be part of the debate (subscribers to the 2-source & Q theories would be questioning its authenticity). To the best of my knowledge (not a scholar, but a pastor / seminary grad very interested in this topic), no such unambiguous evidence exists. Unless you (literally) dig it up (archeologically speaking), I doubt you'll find it in extant writings. That's why there's been room for such theories to develop in the 1st place.

Blessings on your quest... If you find what you seek, I'm sure most on the forum would find it of interest--me, for sure.

Bill

TCBlack

The professor says that ALL the disciples were "illiterate galilean peasants."

Itself a baseless assertion fraught with assumptions.

I have no evidence to refute it, but it stinks of opinion rather than evidence derived discernment. Certainly Matthew was not illiterate as a tax collector and corroborator with the Romans.

Charles L Dick, Jr, MS, LADC-MH-c, CMA

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/54812#Comment_54812

Sometimes the obvious is just to simple to see! Thanks Bill. I had forgotten that my objective was not to disprove OR prove anything...It is merely to state the reasons for my own faith. I too am facinated by the undercurrent of activity ie the amount of it that many noted theological instructors choose to stand with instead of a defense of the Gospel trues in the first place. Being a beginner in this research area is something that I had always known that I was supposed to do, however, it wasn't until I came to gripps with my own position in Christ that I found the security to move forward. This software has made my quest more exciting more quickly than ever!

Charles

Charles L Dick, Jr, MS, LADC-MH-c, CMA

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/54820#Comment_54820

Thanks to you too Thomas! I am rewriting my thesis statement to stand on that fact regarding Matthew, as well as the evidence that exists overall instead of trying to defend every little barb. I found another place where I had commented on Christianity being the largest and the true faith today, and the marginal comment said, "Soon it will be islam." That was after I had already posted the first things on this site.

Rich DeRuiter

The professor says that ALL the disciples were "illiterate galilean peasants." So he wants me to reference my statement that some of the disciples might have recorded notes or records of the events that they witnessed, OR that some of the larger group overall would certainly have attempted the same.

Since no direct evidence exists to support the claim that the disciples 'took notes' during Jesus' life you can't prove that any did. But you can't prove they didn't either.

As to the claim that they were all illiterate peasants, don't forget Matthew/Levi who was a tax collector. It seems to me that literacy would be required for such a task to give an accounting to the Roman government.

Even this doesn't prove or disprove the "Q" hypothesis.

On the other hand, it's a bit of western arrogance to assume that a non-literate people had no way of remembering with great detail and precision what they had seen and heard. Mounting evidence suggests that non-literate people do a very good job of remembering details and passing them on to others.

steve clark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/54962#Comment_54962

John 14:26

25 “These things I have spoken to you while being present with you.

26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

i am not a scholar, but God definitely has the ability to supply their abilities. i am sure ya'll already knew this, please forgive me.

Russ Quinn

I am hopeful that someone might direct me to a search that will open me to locations to support my theory.

Charles,

Here are some resources you might find helpful for understanding the issues that are available for Logos (though not many are in the Gold package).

Scot McKnight, Interpreting the Synoptic Gospels. especially chapter 3 "The Synoptic Problem"
David Alan Black, ed., Rethinking the Synoptic Problem.
Mark Goodacre, The Synoptic Problem: A Way through the Maze.
Articles on "Gospels" and "Source Criticism" in Dictionary for Theological Interpretation of the Bible. *the 12 days of Christmas special from yesterday.
Robert Stein, "Synoptic Problem" in Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels. See also his classic introduction Studying the Synoptic Gospels: Origin and Interpretation (not in Logos but should be!). Dr. Stein is one of the most respected conservative Evangelical scholars who holds to Markan Priority. Not all who hold to variants of source theories or Q are liberal. See also Daniel Wallace's free online articles "Synoptic Problem" and "Synoptic Problem and Inspiration Response". Both Wallace and Stein believe in the Inerrancy of Scripture.
Craig Blomberg, The Historical Reliability of the Gospels. **also not in Logos but should be. This is formatted like a commentary but deals with all of the reliability issues often raised by the Jesus Seminar.
You can do a Basic search for "Synoptic Problem" and you will find many entries in whatever dictionaries you have installed.

On the reliability of the eyewitnesses, see most importantly Richard Bauckham, Jesus and the Eyewitnesses: The Gospels as Eyewitness Testimony.

I had limited time to read, I would recommend focusing on Stein and Bauckham.

Hope this is helpful.

Russ Quinn

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/55038#Comment_55038

Oh yeah . . .

Also helpful and available for Logos is Craig Blomberg Jesus and the Gospels: An Introduction and Survey.

This might not be a bad place to start. It strikes a good balance between being introductory and informative.

He has a section in chapter 4 on source criticism. Blomberg will help you formulate arguments for the reliability of the Gospels.

His bibliography is also helpful.