Premissive will of God
Looking for some resource's on the premissive will of God.
Thanks
Armwood
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Armwood said:
Looking for some resource's on the premissive will of God.
Thanks
Peace, Armwood! *smile* ... and .... Great Joy in the Lord!
Am not quite sure what you are asking??? Is this re. Systematic Theology??? Do you mean the "permissive" will of God?
Have been around for lots of years; and, unfortunately I do not understand what "the permissive will of God" is! *smile*
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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This may not be very accurate but as I understand it, the permissive will is God's will to permit sin to happen. It's what makes His love perfect instead of us being like robots, he allows us to exercise our free will even if it's to our detriment. He allowed sin to enter through Eve and Adam. Happy fault.
Also so that when we freely love Him we do exactly that (freely), true love, not forced. Kind of simplistic, I know. If you do an exact phrase search in Logos you get many very interesting results. I don't know of resources from memory that are dedicated to the study of this. But it's one of those topics that I also love to read about and will be checking this post for suggestions.
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A search of entire Library for "permissive will" yields many interesting results, but the best discussion is in Dogmatic Theology:
Efficacious and Permissive Decrees
The divine decrees are divided into efficacious and permissive (cf. Turretin 3.12.21–25).The efficacious decree determines the event: ...
The permissive decree relates only to moral evil. Sin is the sole and solitary object of this species of decree. ...
The permissive decree is a decree (a) not to hinder the sinful self-determination of the finite will and (b) to regulate and control the result of the sinful self-determination. “God’s permissive will,” says Howe (Decrees, lect. 1), “is his will to permit whatsoever he thinks fit to permit or not to hinder; while what he so wills or determines so to permit, he intends also to regulate and not to behold as an idle unconcerned spectator, but to dispose all those permissa unto wise and great ends of his own.”
Shedd, W. G. T. (2003). Dogmatic Theology. (A. W. Gomes, Ed.) (3rd ed., p. 318). Phillipsburg, NJ: P & R Pub.Dave
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Books and articles I have recently read you may (or may not) find helpful:
Tinker, M. (1991). Purpose in pain?—Teleology and the problem of evil. Themelios, 16, 15-18.
Carson, D. A. (2006). How long, O Lord? Reflections on suffering and evil (2nd ed.). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Academic.
D'Souza, D. (2012). Godforsaken: Bad things happen. Is there a god who cares? Yes. Here’s proof. Carol Stream, IL: Tyndale.
And the entire volume of the (1992). Ashland Theological Journal, 24.
Logos Series X Pastor’s Library | Logos 3 Leader’s Library | 4 Portfolio | 5 Platinum | 6 Feature Crossgrade | 7 Essential | 8 M & W Platinum and Academic Professional | 9 Academic Professional and Messianic Jewish Diamond
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Sleiman said:
This may not be very accurate but as I understand it, the permissive will is God's will to permit sin to happen. It's what makes His love perfect instead of us being like robots, he allows us to exercise our free will even if it's to our detriment. He allowed sin to enter through Eve and Adam. Happy fault.
Also so that when we freely love Him we do exactly that (freely), true love, not forced. Kind of simplistic, I know. If you do an exact phrase search in Logos you get many very interesting results. I don't know of resources from memory that are dedicated to the study of this. But it's one of those topics that I also love to read about and will be checking this post for suggestions.
Sleiman = Brother "Peace"! What a lovely definition! *smile* I will be writing down your words tomorrow and thinking about them! You may be "right on," although I need to ponder these concepts "a bit"
For those of us who respond to this thread, let us please be extremely careful NOT to debate theology, but simply to share some of our insights from resources in Logos format.
For example, searching "permissive will," I received 238 results in 200 articles in 129 resources! Some of these look quite interesting, and I'd like to study more thoroughly.... *smile*
As we live and serve and witness as God's People, we have much to ponder and meditate about, eh???
One result I appreciated is this one:
The Biblical Approach to Theodicy
But why is there evil? The question remains unanswered and unanswerable from the vantage point of the fallen human creature. God does answer two other questions. He does tell us where evil is going. It is headed for its own tomb, led by our victorious Lord. He explored the way out of the tomb for us. He explored the tomb as the place where he will finally lay all evil to rest. Furthermore, God does tell us where evil puts us today. Evil puts us out of relationship with God. God comes to combat evil every day through the presence of his people. They turn back evil with their love for the vulnerable and suffering, for those who suffer bad luck, sickness, cruelty, or their own guilt and shame.
The Permissive Will of God. We may try to get God off the hook by distinguishing his absolute will from his permissive will. We know that God does not want or cause evil, so we presume that he permits it against his own will. This “solution” tries to pierce the veil of the Hidden God. It neither meets any basic kind of logical criterion for analysis, nor does it meet the need of the sufferer. It may persuade us emotionally to feel better about God, but Job did not find God’s giving license for evil a great comfort. Neither do many others. Even when we have posited a permissive will of God, we have not answered the question of “why” he would permit evil even if he does not cause it. The dilemma remains.
Reward and Punishment as Explanation for Evil. The Scriptures offer several partial solutions to the problem of evil. Evil afflicts the guilty, for God visits iniquity upon those who perpetrate it (Ex. 34:7). God rewards good conduct and punishes sinful conduct. That is only just and fair. This answer has the strength of explaining a good deal of evil. We reap what we sow. We smoke, and we get lung cancer. We drive dangerously fast, and we have an automobile accident. God’s Law keeps close track of us, and it dispenses its judgments.
This view helps us preserve a sense of order and regularity in the world about us. It preserves a sense of God’s justice and fairness. But it does not explain “innocent victims.” Too often it drives us to assess blame of some sort where none actually exists. Some smokers do not die young; some nonsmokers do. Some speeders never get caught, to say nothing of dying in an accident. Some pedestrians who never crossed against a light are struck and killed on their way to visit the sick or feed the hungry. Furthermore, this view focuses on human performance and human guilt. God’s Law does that. We dare not so focus on human performance, however, lest we somehow suggest that creatures control their own fate. This approach to the problem of evil may bring some sufferers to repentance, but too often it will turn them in upon themselves, seeking a false explanation for suffering.4
Lament to God as a Reaction to Evil. At other times biblical writers turned to God in lament, as Habakkuk did when he cried out “How long, O Lord, must I call for help, but you do not listen?” (Hab. 1:2). Habakkuk looked to God for relief from suffering by calling down God’s judgment against his enemies (Hab. 1:5–2:20). Jeremiah did the same: “Let my persecutors be put to shame, but keep me from shame; let them be terrified, but keep me from terror. Bring on them the day of disaster; destroy them with double destruction” (Jer. 17:18). Such expression of negative feelings—outright hatred for the foe—seems too impatient and too self-righteous. It puts the burden on God’s back—and perhaps the blame on him for failure to deliver his people from their oppression. Yet it honestly vents the believer’s frustrations and fears................ [1]
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Milford Charles Murray has said it well. The subject of God's will, including "permissive will" as one aspect of it, is covered in many systematic theologies.
Search for "systematic theology" on the Logos product page.
As for me, I'm partial to:
- Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine by Grudem
- Christian Theology, 3rd ed. by Erickson
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Dave where can i find turretin's work?
Armwood
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Armwood said:
Dave where can i find turretin's work?
I'm not Dave, but Turretin's classic work, Institutes of Elenctic Theology, is currently in pre-pub. It's "Almost there!" -- go order it and help push it into production:
http://www.logos.com/product/30296/institutes-of-elenctic-theology
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Hi Rose
Thanks for the info, I saw it in pre-pub,I was thinking that it was somewhere that i wouldn't have to look, hope ,wonder, wish or ponder when or even if it would ever make it out. [;)]
Armwood
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I bit more philosophical approach...
CHAPTER IV. The Problem of Evil
12. All of nature, therefore, is good, since the Creator of all nature is supremely good. But nature is not supremely and immutably good as is the Creator of it. Thus the good in created things can be diminished and augmented. For good to be diminished is evil; still, however much it is diminished, something must remain of its original nature as long as it exists at all. For no matter what kind or however insignificant a thing may be, the good which is its “nature” cannot be destroyed without the thing itself being destroyed. There is good reason, therefore, to praise an uncorrupted thing, and if it were indeed an incorruptible thing which could not be destroyed, it would doubtless be all the more worthy of praise. When, however, a thing is corrupted, its corruption is an evil because it is, by just so much, a privation of the good. Where there is no privation of the good, there is no evil. Where there is evil, there is a corresponding diminution of the good. As long, then, as a thing is being corrupted, there is good in it of which it is being deprived; and in this process, if something of its being remains that cannot be further corrupted, this will then be an incorruptible entity [natura incorruptibilis], and to this great good it will have come through the process of corruption. But even if the corruption is not arrested, it still does not cease having some good of which it cannot be further deprived. If, however, the corruption comes to be total and entire, there is no good left either, because it is no longer an entity at all. Wherefore corruption cannot consume the good without also consuming the thing itself. Every actual entity [natura] is therefore good; a greater good if it cannot be corrupted, a lesser good if it can be. Yet only the foolish and unknowing can deny that it is still good even when corrupted. Whenever a thing is consumed by corruption, not even the corruption remains, for it is nothing in itself, having no subsistent being in which to exist.
13. From this it follows that there is nothing to be called evil if there is nothing good. A good that wholly lacks an evil aspect is entirely good. Where there is some evil in a thing, its good is defective or defectible. Thus there can be no evil where there is no good. This leads us to a surprising conclusion: that, since every being, in so far as it is a being, is good, if we then say that a defective thing is bad, it would seem to mean that we are saying that what is evil is good, that only what is good is ever evil and that there is no evil apart from something good. This is because every actual entity is good [omnis natura bonum est.] Nothing evil exists in itself, but only as an evil aspect of some actual entity. Therefore, there can be nothing evil except something good. Absurd as this sounds, nevertheless the logical connections of the argument compel us to it as inevitable. At the same time, we must take warning lest we incur the prophetic judgment which reads: “Woe to those who call evil good and good evil: who call darkness light and light darkness; who call the bitter sweet and the sweet bitter.” Moreover the Lord himself saith: “An evil man brings forth evil out of the evil treasure of his heart.”24 What, then, is an evil man but an evil entity [natura mala], since man is an entity? Now, if a man is something good because he is an entity, what, then, is a bad man except an evil good? When, however, we distinguish between these two concepts, we find that the bad man is not bad because he is a man, nor is he good because he is wicked. Rather, he is a good entity in so far as he is a man, evil in so far as he is wicked. Therefore, if anyone says that simply to be a man is evil, or that to be a wicked man is good, he rightly falls under the prophetic judgment: “Woe to him who calls evil good and good evil.” For this amounts to finding fault with God’s work, because man is an entity of God’s creation. It also means that we are praising the defects in this particular man because he is a wicked person. Thus, every entity, even if it is a defective one, in so far as it is an entity, is good. In so far as it is defective, it is evil.
Outler, A. C. (1955). Augustine: Confessions and Enchiridion. Library of Christian Classics (343–345). Westminster.The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
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Just remembered the following suggestions (someone should start a reading list):
- The bible: the book of Job; and various commentaries (pick your flavor)
- The problem of Pain by C.S. Lewis, wonderful writing! (dreaming of the day a C.S Lewis collection is on Prepub or CP)
- Evil and the Justice of God (N.T. Wright): Logos link: logosres:evilandjustice;ref=Page.p_iii
- Salvifici Doloris (On the Christian Meaning of Human Suffering) by John Paul 2
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Peace! ........... and Thanks to all of you for some wonderfully thought-provoking concepts and "leads" into further study ...
(Sleiman, the idea of a reading list is a good one. One of these days I'm actually going to spend some time and closely examine what we have now ... thanks to Logos, MJ, and some significant others ...! *smile* )
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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yes indeed: my 'significant other' is very understanding and tolerant of the time I spend on the forums [;)]Milford Charles Murray said:and some significant others
And before someone else beats me to it, congrats on the 3000 posts milestone and thank you for your uplifting posts and Christ-like demeanor.
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Sleiman said:
Just remembered the following suggestions (someone should start a reading list):
- The bible: the book of Job; and various commentaries (pick your flavor)
- The problem of Pain by C.S. Lewis, wonderful writing! (dreaming of the day a C.S Lewis collection is on Prepub or CP)
- Evil and the Justice of God (N.T. Wright): Logos link: logosres:evilandjustice;ref=Page.p_iii
- Salvifici Doloris (On the Christian Meaning of Human Suffering) by John Paul 2
A blank reading list page for Theodicy does already exist on topics.logos.com. Someone should dive in and start adding stuff to it:
http://topics.logos.com/Theodicy
These are the books that come up in my Library when I filter for 'theodicy':
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NB.Mick said:Sleiman said:
congrats on the 3000 posts milestone and thank you for your uplifting posts and Christ-like demeanor.
Yes! Thanks a lot Milford - you give a splendid example of encouragement.
Mick
Mick and Sleiman (Brother Peace!) -- Thank you very kindly! *smile* I'm a little surprised ... pleasantly, of course.
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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