Kai (and) in the beginning of sentences of Mark's gospel
All (and only!) the "ands" (kai as conjunction > logical connective?) in the beginning of sentences in the gospel of Mark...Is there a way to highlight / find them with some search?
I know there are a lot of them and it would be nice to be able to highlight/find these.
I know about syntax search (like in Opentext), and I am trying to construct the query. I'm quite new to it, discovering only the surface of this kind of searching. This is what I have so far, giving me 891 results:
However, this seems not very accurate - I seem to get wrong results (among correct ones of course) and others seem to be missing...You see, I only want the "kais" in the beginning of a sentence to be found...Can that be done?
Thanks in advance!
Comments
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Jo Decaesteker said:
I only want the "kais" in the beginning of a sentence to be found...Can that be done?
I am not very experienced in this area, but my first thought is that it isn't possible. You are wanting to find the kai's in the beginning of English sentences, using syntax from the Greek, right?
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alabama24 said:Jo Decaesteker said:
I only want the "kais" in the beginning of a sentence to be found...Can that be done?
I am not very experienced in this area, but my first thought is that it isn't possible. You are wanting to find the kai's in the beginning of English sentences, using syntax from the Greek, right?
Right!
That's my first thought too that it can't really be done, but I guess this syntax type of search is the closest I can get for now...
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Jo,
Is this accurate enough for you?
In search, type in kai (in Greek lettering, copy and paste) chose Mark's gospel in USB Greek New Testament.
Select all reference that have no "previous context"
Stephen Miller
Sydney, Australia
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Stephen Miller said:
Jo,
Is this accurate enough for you?
In search, type in kai (in Greek lettering, copy and paste) chose Mark's gospel in USB Greek New Testament.
Select all reference that have no "previous context"
Stephen Miller
Sydney, Australia
Great idea, I took analysis view and sorted by "previous context"... I do get a lot of verse numbers and quotation marks as previous contexts though. Oh well... :-) Thanks, Stephen!
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I get all the kais together
St
ephen0 -
I did a morph search with Logos Morphology...
What search do you execute?
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That's a great solution from Steven.
Jo Decaesteker said:What search do you execute?
You probably used a difference resource. It doesn't work on The Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament, nor will it with English Bibles, but it should be fine on all other Greek Testaments.
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I did not use a morph search.
I did a Bible search in UBS Greek NT. I search for καὶ (I got the Greek by copy/paste out of the Greek NT.
Stephen
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Mark- pardon my complete ignorance... Does this solution give the Kai's which begin the sentences in English only? Or is that not what Jo was looking for?
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Sorry, I didn't read the OP carefully enough. Stephen's solution finds kais at the beginning of verses, whereas the beginning of sentences was asked for.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark,
You have made the task easier. Type in Καὶ with a capital Κ and then in the search icon drop down list ask it to "match case". All the Καὶ s at the beginning of a sentence are listed.
Stephen
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Hmmm, well, right... thanks for this input, Mark and Stephen, it's getting very close. However, I don't get the results like you do, Stephen... I seem to have another UBS4 edition, can that be?
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Jo, it works with NA27 also.
Use Search // Bible
Choose UBS4.
Open it so you can copy and paste the Καὶ into the search.
In the new search icon chose //match case.
Hundreds of results come up.
Hope you can find what you want.
Stephen
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Stephen Miller said:
Jo, it works with NA27 also.
Use Search // Bible
Choose UBS4.
Open it so you can copy and paste the Καὶ into the search.
In the new search icon chose //match case.
Hundreds of results come up.
Hope you can find what you want.
Stephen
...Like a glove! THANKS, Stephen! :-)
As my goal actually is to find all English(!) "and's" at the beginning of a sentence, I use your method for/in the ESV. This including both δέ, τέ and καί. So, doing a Bible search in the range of Mark's gospel in the ESV for ". And" (matching cases) does the trick and gives me more accurate (for the English text, that is!) results than the "καί" only search in a Greek text, since the lemmas δέ and τέ are also included now (of course, τέ doesn't seem to occur in Mark, but well, you know what I mean: I have to include ALL of the lemma's which are translated as "and" in English, as I want the results in the English text).
I knew about Mark's (not Barnes, I mean John Mark - lol!) abundant use of "and" in the beginning of a sentence already, but it's nice to see them marked by a visual filter... (I make one seperately, set to Match Cases).
Thanks again, this has been a tremendous help!
Cheers in Him!
Jo D.
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Jo Decaesteker said:
All (and only!) the "ands" (kai as conjunction > logical connective?) in the beginning of sentences in the gospel of Mark...Is there a way to highlight / find them with some search?
OpenText does not have Sentences, so the Clause search will yield more results (906) than Lexham Syntactic (359, below) or Cascadia (439) and more than a text search of UBS4 (106) and NA27 (133). The subjective element is clearly the identification of sentences in the original Greek.
The attribute Appears First comes from the top of Word Specifics (click Word 1 to see it) under the menu which by default is "appears anywhere".
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Stephen Miller said:
Type in Καὶ with a capital Κ and then in the search icon drop down list ask it to "match case". All the Καὶ s at the beginning of a sentence are listed.
Be careful with this. Most Greek editions (NA/UBS included) to not capitalize Greek according to rules of English grammar. For example, Mark 1.5, the beginning of a sentence, starts with a lower-case και in NA27. Same with Mark 1.6 and 1.10.
Instead, most editions (hearkening back to at least as far as Westcott-Hort, perhaps earlier) actually encode differing levels of higher structure with a combination of paragraphing and sentence-casing (see here for some short explanation of WH's use of such formatting: http://www.pastoralepistles.com/2008/05/18/WestcottAmpHortOutlineFirstTimothy.aspx ). Many times in NA a capitalized word indicates the beginning of a quotation, not necessarily a new sentence after a full-stop.
Hope it helps.
Rick Brannan | Bluesky: rickbrannan.com
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Since your question about και is really a translation question (right?) it seems like you might want to search for when a particular translation (e.g. ESV) translates και as "And" (case-sensitive) in Mark. Different translations will translate the function implied by και differently (on the function of και, see Runge's Discourse Grammar to the Greek New Testament (DGGNT), chapter 2).
Anyway, here's a sample of a search I just did (using Morph Search) to locate where και is translated as "And" in ESV Mark; the search was case-sensitive. Is this the sort of thing you're looking for?
Rick Brannan | Bluesky: rickbrannan.com
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Rick Brannan said:
Since your question about και is really a translation question (right?) it seems like you might want to search for when a particular translation (e.g. ESV) translates και as "And" (case-sensitive) in Mark.
Duh. Why didn't I think of that! [:D] Thanks for helping us out. [Y]
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Stephen Miller said:
I get all the kais together
Are you saying your Previous Context column doesn't look like this:
?Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Rick, why is the Previous Context column left-justified? Wouldn't it make far more sense if it was right-justified?
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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Rick Brannan said:
Since your question about και is really a translation question (right?) it seems like you might want to search for when a particular translation (e.g. ESV) translates και as "And" (case-sensitive) in Mark. Different translations will translate the function implied by και differently (on the function of και, see Runge's Discourse Grammar to the Greek New Testament (DGGNT), chapter 2).
Anyway, here's a sample of a search I just did (using Morph Search) to locate where και is translated as "And" in ESV Mark; the search was case-sensitive. Is this the sort of thing you're looking for?
YES! Thank you Rick. I did your search and I still have one question: it says: 800 results in 351 verses. In analysis view, there seems to be "only" 402 lemma's:καί which also equal "And" (case sensitive). Why is that? There's only one other lemma: δέ...
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Jo Decaesteker said:
YES! Thank you Rick. I did your search and I still have one question: it says: 800 results in 351 verses.
This is an old issue where one result is counted for each term (lemma:kai + And) - effectively double counting when we see only one lemma with a specific translation. Other searches like lemma:kai AND And are correctly counted because the kai and And can occur separately/independently in interlinear resources.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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[*-)]Dave Hooton said:This is an old issue where one result is counted for each term (lemma:kai + And) - effectively double counting when we see only one lemma with a specific translation.
Dave, I see you've now explained this on the forums twice today.
Hope you succeed in persuading Logos soon. I believe you said it's been 3 years.
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Anon said:Dave Hooton said:
This is an old issue where one result is counted for each term (lemma:kai + And) - effectively double counting when we see only one lemma with a specific translation.
Dave, I see you've now explained this on the forums twice today.
Hope you succeed in persuading Logos soon. I believe you said it's been 3 years.
Thanks for the clarification, Dave. So, until this gets sorted out, the next best thing is to get into Analysis view in the search results and sort by lemma and examine the number of hits with the/each lemma...
Thanks!
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...By the way... There's also another lemma that's being used for "and" (and "but"), namely δέ (and it's not necessarily in the beginning of sentences). According to this post here: ( http://ntresources.com/blog/?p=3457 ). You can see an interesting chart. Can we somehow get this kind of graphical result in Logos?
Quite interesting thoughts on the use of δέ by Mark...
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You can use Graph results after a search for each lemma. The point being made in the web article is wrt. Hits per 1000 words in chapters of Matt - Act, which you can reproduce with Number of hits in chapter / 1000 words in chapter. Not as convenient but you can see that it agrees with the web article. On a simple ratio of hits for kai / hits for de, Mark is 6.76 vs 3.89 for John, the second highest, with an average of 2.88 over Matt - Acts. But Revelation is 160 (uses kai 160x more than de).
Produce a column graph of Number of hits in book / 1000 words in book (number of hits per 1000 words in the book) and this shows Mark has a relatively higher usage of kai than all other books except Revelation, but it has a relatively lower usage of de (except for Revelation). The difference in usage of kai vs de is more significant for Revelation than Mark.
Dave
===Windows 11 & Android 13
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Jo Decaesteker said:
Can we somehow get this kind of graphical result in Logos?
Yes, you at least you can through a simple combination of Logos and Excel. The chart below was created in a couple of minutes by doing two searches, one for lemma:καί, and the second for lemma:δέ. On both occasions I chose Graph Results and set it to Number of Hits in Chapter/Number of Words in Chapter, and made sure that Show Zero Items was turned on. Then I exported the data from both graphs to Excel. When you export from graphs to Excel, it exports the underlying data, not the graph itself. That suits us because it allows us to uses Excel's charting feature to overlay both graphs on top of one another, like this for narrative writings:
And this for the whole of the NT:
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Mark Barnes said:Jo Decaesteker said:
Can we somehow get this kind of graphical result in Logos?
Yes, you at least you can through a simple combination of Logos and Excel. The chart below was created in a couple of minutes by doing two searches, one for lemma:καί, and the second for lemma:δέ. On both occasions I chose Graph Results and set it to Number of Hits in Chapter/Number of Words in Chapter, and made sure that Show Zero Items was turned on. Then I exported the data from both graphs to Excel. When you export from graphs to Excel, it exports the underlying data, not the graph itself. That suits us because it allows us to uses Excel's charting feature to overlay both graphs on top of one another, like this for narrative writings:
And this for the whole of the NT:
Wow, thanks Mark, I didn't think of exporting to Excel. Going real high tech now huh? :-)
Dave, you too: thinks for the insights!
Cheers!
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