BUG with indenting text in RC3 Notes

I either cannot duplicate this problem, or I do not understand the problem. Could you provide a screenshot?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/501521#Comment_501521

You see it right in your image - the quote is outside the left margin, not aligned with the letters below.

How Logos does it (put up to 16 point to see it easier):

Here is a screen shot of Word, which represents how everyone else does it and how Logos used to do it:

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/501565#Comment_501565

You see it right in your image - the quote is outside the left margin, not aligned with the letters below.

In publishing software, you pay extra for that! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanging_punctuation

Lee

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/501566#Comment_501566

Mark is spot on with that answer. It's a typographical refinement. If you look closely, you may find f-I ligatures and other typographical niceties in your Logos.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/501579#Comment_501579

1. This isn't publishing software

2. Behavior changed from the former implementation of Notes, people rely on this for consistent formatting

3. Writing style guides like APA do not call for it other than in References, not in using quotes.

4. I have no software on my computer that does this as default - for example, in Word you can do this but you must set it up - it is not the default because it is not the preferred way most people like to see their text.

I just wanted to clarify this is a BUG.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/501591#Comment_501591

It may or may not be a bug, even if you prefer it as it was. Some people may consider it an enhancement.

George Somsel

Create a new Note

Ensure that Left Justify is selected for the note.

Insert text, for example this:

"For just as the body is one has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body" (1 Cor. 12:-12-13).

So far,all looks good (except that it may be the wrong size - another reported bug). But then, "Select" it all, and click the -> button to indent it to the right. It left justifies the text, but the quote hangs out in the left margin. This is not correct! All the first characters should be left justified, not just the letters.

I'm still not sure that I understand your problem. Here are some screenshots from my installation with comments regarding what I am doing in each step.

I didn't cut out everything I wanted cut out, but you should get the picture. Does anything here answer your question?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/501608#Comment_501608

George, start the indented line with quotes. They hang over they are not indented. See my picture.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/501602#Comment_501602

It may or may not be a bug, even if you prefer it as it was. Some people may consider it an enhancement.

I had a long answer in reply, but I deleted it - it's a bug - it changed. If it's a new feature, then to add that without giving me a way to match format that we have had for 3+ years is deplorable. I guess you could call anything a feature that's not a crash or data corruption?

Thanks all for the support - I'll keep quiet now. Hopefully Logos disagrees with the concept of unannounced :features" creeping in, and let's justify it as a bug. That's a terribly deflating way to support customers trying to use the product. Why the starred users consider this a "feature" and other changes in behavior bugs is beyond me.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/501608#Comment_501608

The debate is interesting and I don't have a preference for the way 5.1 handles the quote - which is different to 5.0b, but I do mind this difference:-

I pasted the sentence twice, in different paragraphs and separately indented each paragraph. I would expect the indent of the leading quotes to be the same in each paragraph.

George Somsel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/501647#Comment_501647

George, start the indented line with quotes. They hang over they are not indented. See my picture.

Is this it?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/501648#Comment_501648

I had a long answer in reply, but I deleted it - it's a bug - it changed. If it's a new feature, then to add that without giving me a way to match format that we have had for 3+ years is deplorable. I guess you could call anything a feature that's not a crash or data corruption?

Why the starred users consider this a "feature" and other changes in behavior bugs is beyond me.

By definition, a bug is something that is not working as intended. Without knowing whether the change was intentional or not, we don't know whether it's a bug, which is why I said "it may not may not be a bug". If it's unintentional, or has other intended consequences, or it doesn't work consistently then it is a bug. If a programmer has spent hours improving the notes editor to specifically add hanging punctuation, then it's a feature. I've made no judgement either way in this thread, and I still don't. I simply said that "it may not be a bug" and in other applications it's considered a feature.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/501565#Comment_501565

You see it right in your image - the quote is outside the left margin, not aligned with the letters below.

How Logos does it (put up to 16 point to see it easier):

If I must increase the font size to see the problem, then it is not a problem for me. Sorry, but I personally can't see any reason to become so upset/irritated about this. There are much more important problems with Notes.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/501699#Comment_501699

Sorry, but I personally can't see any reason to become so upset/irritated about this.

The irritation comes from posting a problem with the software and having people say "no that's not a problem" or even more aggravating "no that's not an important problem.", without really knowing what Logos is thinking, as Mark states. Jack, you are entitled to your opinion of course but given that you post a number of errors in Logos, how would you feel if people said the things interrupting your work are not important, it works better that way, and you are wrong? Would it be so hard to have just left the thread as a posting of a behavior that has changed, confirm it does the same thing from other users, and let Logos decide?

To cloud the thread with all of this other stuff is terribly deflating and takes away all incentive to participate or report here. Thanks for your help.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/501602#Comment_501602

It may or may not be a bug, even if you prefer it as it was.

If it happened always, it might have been intended, but as it only happens with indented text, I'd call it a bug.

That's definitely a bug, as is this:

The first one insists on indenting two steps, even though I only click the button once. (Most other screenshots in this thread also seem to show a double indent, though I'm guessing you too only clicked once?)

If I must increase the font size to see the problem, then it is not a problem for me.

I'm glad your eyesight is still that good, but some of us have to use an increased font size whether we want to or not.[;)]

There are much more important problems with Notes.

That I can agree with, as regards the original issue.

Would it be so hard to have just left the thread as a posting of a behavior that has changed, confirm it does the same thing from other users, and let Logos decide?

While I agree with most of what you say, including preferring it the way it was, I would think that others have as much right to express approval with the change as you and I have to express disapproval of it.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/501707#Comment_501707

That's definitely a bug, as is this:

Agreed [:)].

Would it be so hard to have just left the thread as a posting of a behavior that has changed, confirm it does the same thing from other users, and let Logos decide? To cloud the thread with all of this other stuff is terribly deflating and takes away all incentive to participate or report here.

I'm sorry if you feel I've removed any incentive to post. That's certainly not my intention. Sometimes I forget that people use the forums for different reasons - some use them to interact with other users, and some use them to publicly draw things to Logos' attention, and many people for both purposes. I am usually in "interact with other users" mode, and therefore thought it would be helpful to interact. Because I have a background in computer programming, I may also have a stricter definition of exactly what is a bug than perhaps other do.

But I believe that interaction is often very useful because sometimes what appear to be bugs are actually misunderstood features (here's an example of when that happened to me), and sometimes bugs are more complex than we realise and it takes the community to work out exactly what the root of the problem is (here's an example of that, following on from this). That collaboration helps all of us, because it means together we can be more specific about the nature of the bug when it's communicated to Logos engineers. Even in this thread, the discussion has helped brought to the surface more bugs that can hopefully now be fixed, and that may not have happened if we had just confirmed the initial report.

My interaction, therefore, was designed to help clarify exactly what the problem was, and therefore to encourage forum participation. I'm sorry if it didn't come across that way.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/501707#Comment_501707

The first one insists on indenting two steps, even though I only click the button once. (Most other screenshots in this thread also seem to show a double indent, though I'm guessing you too only clicked once?)

I clicked once only.

Interestingly, the indentation of the second paragraph is now what I expected, after compacting the note and then expanding it!

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

In 5.1, Notes uses the Logos display engine for editing & display. (The reasons for this have been hashed out in other posts, but can be reiterated here if desired.)

One of the typographic enhancements supported by the display engine is hanging punctuation (e.g., this screenshot from BKC), and this is now supported in Notes due to the new editor.

Thus, this feature is in one sense "by design" (it's a feature of the Logos display engine), but also "accidental" (no one specifically said, "Let's have hanging punctuation in Notes"; this is also why it wasn't ever announced as a new feature).

We can consider having an (internal) option by which this can be disabled for Notes display, but still kept for resource display. No such option is available in 5.1.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/501566#Comment_501566

Wikipedia">
The style was used by Gutenberg in the Gutenberg Bible, the first book printed in Europe.

It has a very noble pedigree!

I was never aware of hanging punctuation before, and initially might not have liked it the first time if I'd been the one to notice it. But I could get used to it. Just like I've gotten used to the new standard of only putting one space after a period, which I used to hate!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/501851#Comment_501851

Thanks, Bradley.

We can consider having an (internal) option by which this can be disabled for Notes display, but still kept for resource display.

That would be nice, but I wouldn't personally consider it in any way urgent.

Do you agree Dave's and my issues are bugs?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/501703#Comment_501703

Jack, you are entitled to your opinion of course but given that you post a number of errors in Logos, how would you feel if people said the things interrupting your work are not important, it works better that way, and you are wrong?

Was not objecting to your original post reporting the problem, but with what I perceived as an overreaction to followup posts. You, of course, are entitled to your own opinion.

Would it be so hard to have just left the thread as a posting of a behavior that has changed, confirm it does the same thing from other users, and let Logos decide?

Believe I am entitled to state my opinion that, compared with other problems with Notes, this is a minor issue. You obviously disagree, and you are entitled to do so.

how would you feel if people said the things interrupting your work are not important, it works better that way, and you are wrong?

That has happened to me a few times. It only bothers me when fgh catches me in errors more than once in the same day. Then, I am embarrassed [:D]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/501872#Comment_501872

Thanks Bradley for the explanation.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/501707#Comment_501707

The first one insists on indenting two steps, even though I only click the button once. (Most other screenshots in this thread also seem to show a double indent, though I'm guessing you too only clicked once?)

Noticed that the text move more than I would have expected, but did not think that it moved two indents until you pointed it out. This is definitely a bug that needs to be fixed.

Alan Palmer (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/501879#Comment_501879

The first one insists on indenting two steps, even though I only click the button once. (Most other screenshots in this thread also seem to show a double indent, though I'm guessing you too only clicked once?)

Noticed that the text move more than I would have expected, but did not think that it moved two indents until you pointed it out. This is definitely a bug that needs to be fixed.

I was unable to reproduce this on my first try. Can you provide more details?

FYI: We did adjust the amount of paragraph margin added by the "increase indent" in a previous RC (this was done in conjunction with the fix for list item indicators drawing over the paragraph content). Perhaps you're comparing indents applied before and after this change?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/501887#Comment_501887

FYI: We did adjust the amount of paragraph margin added by the "increase indent" in a previous RC (this was done in conjunction with the fix for list item indicators drawing over the paragraph content). Perhaps you're comparing indents applied before and after this change?

You didn't look at my screenshot? That's from today. First paragraph indented two steps with one click. Second paragraph indented one step with one click.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/501887#Comment_501887

The first one insists on indenting two steps, even though I only click the button once. (Most other screenshots in this thread also seem to show a double indent, though I'm guessing you too only clicked once?)

Noticed that the text move more than I would have expected, but did not think that it moved two indents until you pointed it out. This is definitely a bug that needs to be fixed.

I was unable to reproduce this on my first try. Can you provide more details?

FYI: We did adjust the amount of paragraph margin added by the "increase indent" in a previous RC (this was done in conjunction with the fix for list item indicators drawing over the paragraph content). Perhaps you're comparing indents applied before and after this change?

Just for the full context, here's fgh's report with the screenshot. I had to go scrolling back quite a bit through the thread to find it, so it would be easier for others reading this thread if it were copied forward here:

The first one insists on indenting two steps, even though I only click the button once.

fgh, Alan says he couldn't reproduce it. Perhaps you could give exact repro steps: e.g., did you indent the second paragraph first and then go up to the first one to click once and it indented twice? Or something else? I can't repro at all either, but I'm on Windows and this appears to be a Mac-only issue. Or else I'm not guessing the proper order of what you did -- typing, copying, pasting, clicking, etc. When was the note created originally? It looks like you must have typed that verse in initially rather than pasting because it doesn't appear like that ("for just as the body is one has many members" missing the word "and" between "one" and "has") in any Bibles. But then you probably copied and pasted to duplicate it. Did you paste above or below? Where in the paragraph did you click before clicking the indent button? Etc. Those kinds of details might be necessary to attempt reproduction.