OT: Intriguing article on digital Bibles
Comments
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Me too, since the winter 2011/2012!:
David Ames said:(1) Have used my laptop to take notes on the sermon:
Lee said:Are intelligent saints on this forum going to stand for these positions:
(1) using electronic devices during service is ALWAYS bad,
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The Gospel Coalition decided to get in on the action:
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2013/08/19/dear-pastor-bring-your-bible-to-church/
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A sensible-sounding piece, yet somewhat slim on scriptural principles...
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Lee said:
A sensible-sounding piece, yet somewhat slim on scriptural principles...
If you are saying it is slim on scriptural references, I agree. But I find it full of scriptural principles.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I love the piece.
This is exactly why Logos4 and the Logos5 were such a major mistake. In Libronix, there's no sinful temptation to 'preach from your iPad'.
EDIT: After seeing Paul's comments below and then re-reading the piece, I wonder if the fascination with a paper Bible indeed was (and is) the theology. I only note this, studying the 100-200ce time period where it's pretty obvious the 'word' has barely made its way onto papyri but that seems perfectly ok. Person-A talking and writing to Person-B.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I keep telling my friends that there is nothing wrong with using film, and all they want to do is throw their paintbrushes at me...
Favorite quote:
"...take a physical copy of the Bible with you on your next plane flight..."
Sanctimony, thy name is...
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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One aspect I found myself debating with the author over was the section called "Biblical Illiteracy in the Pew". He says:
TGC Article said:Second, the tablet may, oddly enough, unintentionally and indirectly encourage biblical illiteracy in the pew.
For all the evidence he gives in that section, I can guarantee it was an issue before the tablet was even invented. I don't even think it's exacerbated by the tablet. People just don't seem the care about the Bible anymore, and I don't think it's computers that have caused that problem. People don't know context or "what's on the next page" -- not because they're reading their Bibles digitally (I wish!) -- but because they're not reading it at all.
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William Gabriel said:
One aspect I found myself debating with the author over was the section called "Biblical Illiteracy in the Pew". He says:
TGC Article said:Second, the tablet may, oddly enough, unintentionally and indirectly encourage biblical illiteracy in the pew.
For all the evidence he gives in that section, I can guarantee it was an issue before the tablet was even invented. I don't even think it's exacerbated by the tablet. People just don't seem the care about the Bible anymore, and I don't think it's computers that have caused that problem. People don't know context or "what's on the next page" -- not because they're reading their Bibles digitally (I wish!) -- but because they're not reading it at all.
I agree. It's not simply certain churches either. The average pewsitter is biblically illiterate once taken away from certain pet passages such as the creation account regardless of which church he attends. I would wager that most would not disagree with Obama's statement that Jesus asked whether we were our brother's keeper (Come on guys, it's in the story of Cain and Abel). They tend to respond to any statement as biblical if they vaguely remember hearing it at some time in a church context.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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He said that? really?George Somsel said:most would not disagree with Obama's statement that Jesus asked whether we were our brother's keeper
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Sleiman said:
He said that? really?George Somsel said:most would not disagree with Obama's statement that Jesus asked whether we were our brother's keeper
Not exactly - while misquoting what the Bible says about brother's keeper, Obama said he WAS his brother's keeper.
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If we continue in the political vein I might say something highly offensive to some of you.[:#] I think I'll go read another thread. [:)]
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Thanks Don, I liked the article.
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Super Tramp said:
If we continue in the political vein I might say something highly offensive to some of you.
I think I'll go read another thread. 
My mention of this event was not to introduce politics into the discussion but rather to illustrate how the bible is freely misquoted and accepted as reflecting the bible accurately because most don't know the bible.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Yes, it's gotten so bad that I hear in Bible class 'Looks like the Apostle Paul did an Obama here.' Or 'At verse 4, Mark has done an Obama.'
Everyone's quoting Obama for comparative exegetic techniques.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
Yes, it's gotten so bad that I hear in Bible class 'Looks like the Apostle Paul did an Obama here.' Or 'At verse 4, Mark has done an Obama.'
Everyone's quoting Obama for comparative exegetic techniques.
Apparently those in your bible class are a bit more knowledgeable that the average citizen. That, however, is hardly surprising since you would expect those who actually study the bible to be at least a tad more sensitive to misquotations and misapplications.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Super Tramp said:Lee said:
A sensible-sounding piece, yet somewhat slim on scriptural principles...
If you are saying it is slim on scriptural references, I agree. But I find it full of scriptural principles.
I think you find it "full of scriptural principles" because you are already in agreement with the writer. His arguments are mostly indirect applications and a priori assumptions. If I wrote in the same vein, I could just have easily "reached" the opposite conclusion. If we want to settle this issue from a theological and scriptural standpoint, what we need are direct applications of scripture rather than reams of special pleading. [:)]
And here's the nub: if direct applications of scripture are not to be found, perhaps we should view this issue irenically, pragmatically and discerningly.
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That is the silliest article I have read in a long time. It should be retitled "How To Be Sure Your Church Does Not Reach Young Adults" (By the way, I am soon to turn 60 years old, in the prime of life. But the my church's largest group is our Young Adults in their 20's and 30's.)
Our Church has done several of the David Platt led "Secret Church" sessions, which involves intensive Bible teaching from 6 pm to after midnight. It thrilled me to see my Young Adults with their Bible apps on their smart phones hanging in there for over 6 hours of intensive Bible study, (and some of my older adults with their paper Bibles as well.)
Any Bible, paper or electronic is a one person oriented device. What a silly criticism of an electronic version! Of course, you can read aloud to a group just as easily from any Bible, paper of electronic. So there is no advantage in that respect to paper or electronics.
I sometimes use my iPad to teach Bible Study to a group of about 50 people. I have individually asked a number of the group it the electronic device was distracting. No one has yet felt that it was, and most of them did not even realize that I had not used a paper Bible. My iPad is in a leather cover, and they assumed it was a book.
Before Bibles were on smartphones, few of my young adults brought them to Bible study. Now many of them have Bibles on their smartphones. They follow along and discuss. A BIG improvement, in my opinion.
On the rare occasion that I get to attend a Bible study or worship service that I am not leading, I always take my iPad and use my Logos app.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Michael Childs said:
Our Church has done several of the David Platt led "Secret Church" sessions, which involves intensive Bible teaching from 6 pm to after midnight. It thrilled me to see my Young Adults with their Bible apps on their smart phones hanging in there for over 6 hours of intensive Bible study, (and some of my older adults with their paper Bibles as well.)
We were, however, talking about the regular communal service of the church and not about bible study. Few, if any, would depreciate the usage of electronic media in venues other than the main service.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:Michael Childs said:
Our Church has done several of the David Platt led "Secret Church" sessions, which involves intensive Bible teaching from 6 pm to after midnight. It thrilled me to see my Young Adults with their Bible apps on their smart phones hanging in there for over 6 hours of intensive Bible study, (and some of my older adults with their paper Bibles as well.)
We were, however, talking about the regular communal service of the church and not about bible study. Few, if any, would depreciate the usage of electronic media in venues other than the main service.
How valid is that distinction, and how significant is that distinction? Can we make allowance for different expressions of "service"?
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I haven't read the whole thread, but I am beginning to realize that I must come from a different planet from most of the rest of you; I would never, ever even think to take an iPad into Mass. Or an iPhone, or anything else of that nature. I would be the equivalent of, I don't know, coming in wearing plastic devil's horns or something. LOL.
Obviously I'm in the minority here. But yeah, Not. Ever. Going. To. Happen.
~Butters [:)]
“To love means loving the unlovable. To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable. Faith means believing the unbelievable. Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton
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Butters said:
I would never, ever even think to take an iPad into Mass. Or an iPhone, or anything else of that nature.
I bet the next pope will. It wouldn't even surprise me if this one did. [:P]
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alabama24 said:
I bet the next pope will. It wouldn't even surprise me if this one did.
LOL! Yeah, well, you're probably right; I'll mark that up as yet another reason I'm a Pre-Vatican II Trad. [:P]
“To love means loving the unlovable. To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable. Faith means believing the unbelievable. Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton
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I think the Bible that they read at home or in Bible study should be welcome in the "main service". Though I am not sure I would agree with you which is "the main service". I still find it silly for the reasons stated.
George Somsel said:Michael Childs said:Our Church has done several of the David Platt led "Secret Church" sessions, which involves intensive Bible teaching from 6 pm to after midnight. It thrilled me to see my Young Adults with their Bible apps on their smart phones hanging in there for over 6 hours of intensive Bible study, (and some of my older adults with their paper Bibles as well.)
We were, however, talking about the regular communal service of the church and not about bible study. Few, if any, would depreciate the usage of electronic media in venues other than the main service.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Butters said:
I would never, ever even think to take an iPad into Mass.
I take my Laptop to service. BUT if I am reading Scripture before the congregation I use my Hard Copy - every time.
However if I am part of the congregation and am spontaneously asked to read from the pews I will read from the screen.
[If it was planed before the service I will do it from the Hard Copy]
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Butters said:
; I would never, ever even think to take an iPad into Mass.
I think it was pointed out earlier New Zealand Bishops had to ban Priests from saying mass from their iPads...
-Dan
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alabama24 said:Butters said:
I would never, ever even think to take an iPad into Mass. Or an iPhone, or anything else of that nature.
I bet the next pope will. It wouldn't even surprise me if this one did.
At Mass? Unlikely.
Outside Mass? Benedict was reported to write his books by hand. Francis is said to use a manual typewriter. So I guess the next pope might have advanced to an electric one.[:P]
Mac Pro (late 2013) OS 12.6.2
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fgh said:
At Mass? Unlikely.
I'm not Catholic, but the Pope continues to surprise me (mostly in good ways). How would you answer the question if it were asked this way:
Is it conceivable that the first Pope to offer absolution via twitter would perform Mass with the aid of an iPad? Again, I'm not Catholic, but I'd have to say "yes, its possible."
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If the early Fathers had a handwritten codex, would they have used a scroll?
If the early Fathers had a printed book, would they have used a handwritten codex?
If the early Fathers had a digital reader, would they have used a printed book?
If the early Fathers had Powerpoint, would they have used a printed liturgies / lectionaries?
If the early Fathers had rock bands, would they have used ....
If the early Fathers had email, would they etc. etc. etc.
Somebody tell me, if you know.
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As Arsenio Hall used to say, "Things that make you go Hmmm?" [:)]
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Lee said:
Somebody tell me, if you know.
Well, you're equating things that really aren't equatable. A handwritten codex, a scroll, a printed book, liturgy and lectionaries, etc. have something in common that is not shared by digital readers.
Email and powerpoint would have no point in the liturgy and don't belong at the Mass in the first place; however, I don't see any problem with a Catholic using them otherwise.
“To love means loving the unlovable. To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable. Faith means believing the unbelievable. Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton
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Butters said:
A handwritten codex, a scroll, a printed book, liturgy and lectionaries, etc. have something in common that is not shared by digital readers.
Which is what? [I'm just curious... Not trying to argue. [:)]]
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Butters said:
Dodging the question? There's nothing to equate here. I'm not equating anything.
I'm just asking, if a service is an ex cathedra ritual-form, would that dispensation have emerged in a different form in a milieu with different resources and situations. Something to think about, unless you think that ritual-forms have such a great innate value that they override all functional concerns.
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alabama24 said:
Which is what?
They can be liturgical objects appropriate for processions, visible to the congregations etc. Digital readers are primarily private objects therefore generally inappropriate for corporate worship. The same argument is made for worship aids such as missalettes. Exceptions are obviously appropriate for the hard of hearing, visually impaired, austic children etc. ... i.e. anyone who needs assistance to participate in the corporate experience.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
They can be liturgical objects appropriate for processions, visible to the congregations etc. Digital readers are primarily private objects therefore generally inappropriate for corporate worship.
I don't understand (practically speaking) how an iPad is any more or less "private" than a book. Both can be held by an individual. Both can be passed around by a group.
If someone values books "written by hand," that eliminates printed books.
If someone values books written on animal skin, that eliminates works on papyrus or paper.
I am unsure what the argument being made is... Are the only copies of the scriptures allowed to be used ones which have historical significance? If that is the case, then the issue isn't iPad vs. Print, but Historical vs. New. [Again, I'm not trying to argue for any position, just trying to gain understanding from others who worship and think differently than I do. [:)]]
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Lee said:
Somebody tell me, if you know.
You are asking rhetorical questions without answers. Considerations relevant to answers:
- Is the higher technological form easily convertible to an aesthetically pleasing liturgical object?
- Is the higher technological form culturally seen as "offering the best to God"?
- Does the higher technological form encourage a corporate not individual experience?
- What cultural associations come with the higher technological form? There is a reason leather bound (or faux leather) books are preferred to newspaper print.
- How can the higher technological form be configured to encourage the congregation to have confidence in the accuracy of the liturgical text? [There is a strong ritual reason for reading from the lectionary not type-written loose pages.]]
- Does the higher technological form work fluidly in the liturgical context - size of print, length of line, easy of holding at optimal distance for oneself or an officiant whose hands are busy ... and perhaps in the way when you consider screen glare ...
- Does the higher technological form provide sufficient fail-safe measures for battery failure, system failure etc. especially for long and complicated services?
I could continue but you should get the picture. There is a reason there is resistance to the perpetual candle by the tabernacle being replaced by an electric candle.
Outside of the liturgical context, the early church fathers obviously used whatever was readily available to them.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:Lee said:
Somebody tell me, if you know.
You are asking rhetorical questions without answers. Considerations relevant to answers:
There are no quick and ready answers. That was my point. Your list of questions was a good illustration of some of the questions we ought to be asking ourselves, especially if we are in a position to set policy or pontificate for a body of believers.
Whatever position we prefer, I find it interesting that nobody is advocating that we go back to the "original way", i.e. the archetypal ritual-form in the early Church.
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Lee said:
If the early Fathers had a handwritten codex, would they have used a scroll?
If the early Fathers had a printed book, would they have used a handwritten codex?
If the early Fathers had a digital reader, would they have used a printed book?
If the early Fathers had Powerpoint, would they have used a printed liturgies / lectionaries?
If the early Fathers had rock bands, would they have used ....
If the early Fathers had email, would they etc. etc. etc.
Somebody tell me, if you know.
I think the early fathers would have had more sense than to use a rock band—why would they wish to destroy their hearing?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
I think the early fathers would have had more sense than to use a rock band—why would they wish to destroy their hearing?
All the better for oldies, who have presumably lost theirs ... [:D]
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alabama24 said:MJ. Smith said:
They can be liturgical objects appropriate for processions, visible to the congregations etc. Digital readers are primarily private objects therefore generally inappropriate for corporate worship.
I don't understand (practically speaking) how an iPad is any more or less "private" than a book. Both can be held by an individual. Both can be passed around by a group.
If someone values books "written by hand," that eliminates printed books.
If someone values books written on animal skin, that eliminates works on papyrus or paper.
I am unsure what the argument being made is... Are the only copies of the scriptures allowed to be used ones which have historical significance? If that is the case, then the issue isn't iPad vs. Print, but Historical vs. New. [Again, I'm not trying to argue for any position, just trying to gain understanding from others who worship and think differently than I do.
]Print media such as a PEW BIBLE are fixed and the same for each copy in the nave. Electronic media can differ profoundly from one instance to another. We are speaking of a communal exercise, not simply a bible study. In a communal exercise everyone needs to be LITERALLY on the same page.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Digital readers are created and sold as personal readers. Carrying one in a procession as a valued object held aloft for all would look rather silly. Liturgical books, on the other hand, are bound to be displayed especially the Gospels which are held aloft in procession. Think of parallels to the procession of the Torah scrolls ... and think of why they are still scrolls. Liturgical books are owned by the community for the benefit of the community. Digital readers are purchased for individuals ... and to optimize the readability factors for an individual. Liturgical books have easily recognizable covers allowing the congregation to have confidence in the contents ... personal readers can have anything on them ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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alabama24 said:
Which is what? [I'm just curious... Not trying to argue.
]Sure, I'll do my best; and of course I'm not speaking ex cathedra here [:P] and this is just my opinion.
A "paper based" lectionary, for example - in whatever form it's in - can last hundreds of years; and as such, and given the natural materials it's made of, has intertwined qualities of 1. continuity, of 2. memory, and of 3. deepening beauty.
It's the same lectionary that was used for your grandfather's funeral which is now used for your daughter's wedding. It's the same lectionary that you held tightly to during some grief that struck you a decade ago. And there is the same page where you once, in haste, tore because in your joy to read something to someone you were a little too exuberant; but that person is now a person of very deep faith. Holding it and using it connects one intimately with the past; a distant past and also your own personal past. You see it change and it's beauty deepen, even (and perhaps especially) as it becomes worn and old.
None of this, to my way of thinking, can be replicated with a digital reader. However beautiful, in some ways, your reader may be, let's face it: compared with a gorgeous book, that device is comparatively ugly. Moreover, that device is indeed revolutionary; and being so, it really isn't rooted in history; and has practically zero historical continuity with the past. It is, moreover, a device that is replaced every year or two or so, and so cannot embody (so to speak) memories; and provides very little personal continuity. Finally, no device - however beautiful you believe it to be when new - can grow more beautiful; it can only grow more ugly, disordered, unwieldy, buggy, lifeless, et cetera.
____
One other thing too: the human brain is wired to place memories spatio-visually. One remembers where thing are by associating them with something seen; this is how memories are placed and retrieved. I have an immense memory of certain books I've read; but when I look at what that memory is rooted in, it's connected with all the underlining, and fingerprints from chocolate, and bent pages where I thought something was important, and smudges, and dents, and rips and so on.
This is not only beautiful (I truly cherish my books [:$]) it is also an incredibly rich environment for memory; they embody a great deal of visual and tactile feedback, where the book changes every time I pick it up and read it. Indeed, when I walk through my study: literally the conversations and dialogues with a given book, should it catch my eye, are reignited. I wouldn't give up that conversation and memory and ongoing community for anything. This would never happen if I were to walk past my iPad. LOL.
And I do think that, for all the benefits of digital reading (and there are many!), we do give up something very precious if we abandon paper-based books - for the above and many other reasons.
Just my two centavos.
~Butters [:)]
“To love means loving the unlovable. To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable. Faith means believing the unbelievable. Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton
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George Somsel said:
In a communal exercise everyone needs to be LITERALLY on the same page.
A need which I'm sure Proclaim is trying to meet ...
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George Somsel said:
Print media such as a PEW BIBLE are fixed and the same for each copy in the nave. Electronic media can differ profoundly from one instance to another. We are speaking of a communal exercise, not simply a bible study. In a communal exercise everyone needs to be LITERALLY on the same page.
George - I wasn't asking or speaking about congregants... I was speaking about "from the pulpit."
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MJ. Smith said:
There is a reason there is resistance to the perpetual candle by the tabernacle being replaced by an electric candle.
Exactly. And for many reasons. For example: a candle is not just a "lighting device" - this reduces it to a mere utility.
What is the advantage to reducing something so incarnational, so connected with history, so imbued with symbolism, to a mere utilitarian function? To a dreary little electric bulb?
“To love means loving the unlovable. To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable. Faith means believing the unbelievable. Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton
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Butters said:MJ. Smith said:
There is a reason there is resistance to the perpetual candle by the tabernacle being replaced by an electric candle.
Exactly. And for many reasons. For example: a candle is not just a "lighting device" - this reduces it to a mere utility.
What is the advantage to reducing something so incarnational, so connected with history, so imbued with symbolism, to a mere utilitarian function? To a dreary little electric bulb?
Straw man. It's no use trying to settle such a complicated question by the use of extreme examples. Illustrative, perhaps, but no more than that (pun intended).
Of course, I have my own views. But all I am trying to do here is to state the principles which provoke us to open our minds, and see the features of other systems rather than ex cathedra acceptance or disapproval. No more than that.
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MJ. Smith said:
Digital readers are created and sold as personal readers.
So are books!
MJ. Smith said:Carrying one in a procession as a valued object held aloft for all would look rather silly. Liturgical books, on the other hand, are bound to be displayed especially the Gospels which are held aloft in procession. Think of parallels to the procession of the Torah scrolls ... and think of why they are still scrolls.
I have seen such things before in Jerusalem, and on TV... I remember thinking the ceremony was beautiful... In some of my typography classes, we discussed the "controversy" over the printing press. I'm sure there was also controversy over codexes as well.
MJ. Smith said:Liturgical books have easily recognizable covers allowing the congregation to have confidence in the contents ... personal readers can have anything on them ...
You can't judge a book by its cover. [:P]
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Lee said:
It's no use trying to settle such a complicated question by the use of extreme examples. Illustrative, perhaps, but no more than that (pun intended).
Well, when you face something "complicated" - that's your view not mine - it's best to locate a principle. Otherwise you have no compass. The Perpetual Candle is illustrative of a very useful principle.
“To love means loving the unlovable. To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable. Faith means believing the unbelievable. Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton
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Butters said:
Well, you're equating things that really aren't equatable. A handwritten codex, a scroll, a printed book, liturgy and lectionaries, etc. have something in common that is not shared by digital readers.
Butters said:A "paper based" lectionary, for example - in whatever form it's in - can last hundreds of years; and as such, and given the natural materials it's made of, has intertwined qualities of 1. continuity, of 2. memory, and of 3. deepening beauty.
It's the same lectionary that was used for your grandfather's funeral which is now used for your daughter's wedding... Holding it and using it connects one intimately with the past; a distant past and also your own personal past. You see it change and it's beauty deepen, even (and perhaps especially) as it becomes worn and old...
None of this, to my way of thinking, can be replicated with a digital reader. However beautiful, in some ways, your reader may be, let's face it: compared with a gorgeous book, that device is comparatively ugly.
Butters said:Well, when you face something "complicated" - that's your view not mine - it's best to locate a principle. Otherwise you have no compass. The Perpetual Candle is illustrative of a very useful principle.
You're jumping around and moving the goal-posts as you go. This does not make for a good discussion. I give up. [|-)]
Note: I agree that the whole thing is very simple. The principles (validly derived from Scripture) are simple. The application of those principles and the results thereof, however, are complicated. That was my point all along.
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alabama24 said:
Now - but not originally. There is a reason Bibles where chained to prevent theft and left open to promote reading. Or think of the choir-stand for Medieval music manuscripts .. the entire choir reads from the same copy.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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