Denise and others, why do you stick with Libronix (L3) and not upgrade to L5?

This question is predominately directed toward Denise but others are welcome to participate - especially those of you who have chosen not to upgrade Logos versions.

Denise, you often speak of L3 as your preferred version of Logos. I realize that some do not upgrade to new Logos versions because of finances but I don't think this is true in others. I have often wondered what the reasons were for this so I decided to start a new thread to discuss it.

Thanks for helping me learn.

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DMB

First, let's be clear: Logos4/5 is a great product and I depend on the Logos library for good choices.

Also just one member's opinion.

Reasons:

(1) No forced synching. Kindle is the same. Courtesy is important to me.

(2) Theology: I don't appreciate Logos' forced theology. And I don't wish to be 'married' to this issue. If Bob decides a direction, you really have no choice.

(3) Quick, fast, easy. Need we say 'Accordance'?

(4) Ease of backup. I have absolutely no confidence in Logos, absent 'the techies'. L3 is happy in a Virtual Box.

(5) New resources: I'm not Catholic, etc: there's not been much added since Bob pulled the plug on L3. Kindle's my new source for Bible books.

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/521968#Comment_521968

(2) Theology: I don't appreciate Logos' forced theology. And I don't wish to be 'married' to this issue. If Bob decides a direction, you really have no choice.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you speaking of how Logos forces a particular theological slant (e.g., Evangelical, &/or, Reformed), or do are you talking about their philosophy of the programming environment, or do you mean something else?

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/521968#Comment_521968

Thanks for sharing your reasons Denise. It is helpful for me to try to understand. I'm interested to explore this further if you don't mind.

(1) No forced synching. Kindle is the same. Courtesy is important to me.

Is this primarily a time issue. I kind of like when when I know that Logos is continually syncing so I know that I always have a backup in the cloud.

(2) Theology: I don't appreciate Logos' forced theology. And I don't wish to be 'married' to this issue. If Bob decides a direction, you really have no choice.

Like Richard asked I too had the same questions. By the way the way to talk about Bob makes him sound sort of like a tyrant. I would think that anyone giving overall leadership to anything would have their particular slant. To me this is just part of what it means to lead. If you were Bob what direction would you go?

(3) Quick, fast, easy. Need we say 'Accordance'?

I've never used Accordance. In what ways is it faster? Speed has never been an issue with me in Logos although it used to be when I first started using it 20 years ago but computers were different back then.

(4) Ease of backup. I have absolutely no confidence in Logos, absent 'the techies'. L3 is happy in a Virtual Box.

Why do you have no confidence in Logos regarding backups? Personally I have never experienced any issues with backups other than personal books which is another issue and is currently being addressed.

(5) New resources: I'm not Catholic, etc: there's not been much added since Bob pulled the plug on L3. Kindle's my new source for Bible books.

I don't understand this. Logos' goal this year is to launch 10,000 new books. What kind of new resources would you like to see?

Floyd Johnson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/521971#Comment_521971

(2) Theology: I don't appreciate Logos' forced theology. And I don't wish to be 'married' to this issue. If Bob decides a direction, you really have no choice.

I'm not sure what you mean by this. Are you speaking of how Logos forces a particular theological slant (e.g., Evangelical, &/or, Reformed), or do are you talking about their philosophy of the programming environment, or do you mean something else?

I don't know about Denise, but I know that I have made fewer purchases as LOGOS as leaned more and more toward a reformed theology. Not only are these not the products I want, but I think it hurts LOGOS' desire (I thought) to be a tool for the whole church. As I have watched LOGOS as of late, I see them increasingly leaning toward a reformed theology and non-theological works (i.e. Noet).

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/522004#Comment_522004

As I have watched LOGOS as of late, I see them increasingly leaning toward a reformed theology

huh?

Somehow I see something totally different, with RC, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran and even SDA product managers recently installed...

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/521968#Comment_521968

(2) Theology: I don't appreciate Logos' forced theology. And I don't wish to be 'married' to this issue. If Bob decides a direction, you really have no choice.

Not speaking for Denise, but I could easily make the case that many of the tools with their predetermined answers are theological. For many issues, the approach of the timeline showing multiple options, is more theological neutral. However, there are also parts (though fewer) of Libronix for which the same charge could be made.

ELA

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/521968#Comment_521968

First, let's be clear: Logos4/5 is a great product and I depend on the Logos library for good choices.

Also just one member's opinion.

Reasons:

(1) No forced synching. Kindle is the same. Courtesy is important to me.

(2) Theology: I don't appreciate Logos' forced theology. And I don't wish to be 'married' to this issue. If Bob decides a direction, you really have no choice.

(3) Quick, fast, easy. Need we say 'Accordance'?

(4) Ease of backup. I have absolutely no confidence in Logos, absent 'the techies'. L3 is happy in a Virtual Box.

(5) New resources: I'm not Catholic, etc: there's not been much added since Bob pulled the plug on L3. Kindle's my new source for Bible books.

Same here. I had Logos 4 - and I also have Logos 5. It's not that I didn't want to upgrade and don't find Logos 5 a great product.

But I have total control of Libronix - I hate this synching thing: that I cannot buy a book without synching the program too. And I hate this whole 'cloud'-idea. It's not that I don't use it - but I wish I didn't have to (actually I use it a lot professionally because it's part of my job)

Libronix is real fast - also on older machines.

Backup is very easy - and if I want to install only a few books I can do that - I don't have to install thousands of books.

I can search books that I don't have in my library (well this is fading, because new books are not made available in Libronix anymore)

I have a lot of pbb. Most of these can now be bought in Logos but that would cost me thousands of dollars. And most of these books I don't use very often.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/521998#Comment_521998

Bruce ... in answer to your questions:

Syncing: For me it's simple courtesy. I notice Olivetree also forces sync'ing, last I used it. I avoid them too, as much as possible. Of course they copied Logos' absence of communication too. Repeated emails required.

Theology: MJ said it well; the tools should remain theologically neutral, identify their position, and/or provide alternative interpretations. If Logos were meant for Qumran, then interpretations by the Teacher of Righteousness would be perfect.

Accordance: I'm not advocating Accordance per se; only that for some reason sluggish responsiveness, even on a heavy duty PC, intrudes into reading.

Backups: As long as someone's got the money for WIFI and Logos is around, sure. But again, Logos 'could' backup on a PC (using Dave's expertise) but chooses not to. Fine by me; L3's great!

Books: Just personal taste; I mainly like anything that deals in the sources (as another thread discusses). I don't much care for regergitation (sp?).

But the above are peanut-y, I think.

My MAJOR problem with Logos4/5 is that it is not easy to 'spread around'. Here I'm talking about our individual evangelical opportunities. I know, I know ... Logos is a 'business'. But what is ON Logos is so invaluable to both new and older Christians. Whether lack of intuitiveness, expensive PC/Mac required, WIFI demands, high priced books (be quiet Matthew), and so on, other software is (most often) the only real solution for your friends.

I often wonder what would have happened if Logos4 had (somehow) used a more light-weight and intuitive interface? But who knows, maybe it really doesn't matter due to 'you know who'.

Kent

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/522089#Comment_522089

the tools should remain theologically neutral

Not possible. If you offer N.T.Wright, you offer his theology. If you offer John Stott, you offer his theology. You cannot put an author's book out and not include his theology.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/522104#Comment_522104

the tools should remain theologically neutral

Not possible. If you offer N.T.Wright, you offer his theology. If you offer John Stott, you offer his theology. You cannot put an author's book out and not include his theology.

I don't think Denise refers to book resources here… I think she refers to things such as "speaker labels," etc. Those, of course, will always have a theological bent as well.

John

This question is predominately directed toward Denise but others are welcome to participate - especially those of you who have chosen not to upgrade Logos versions.

Denise, you often speak of L3 as your preferred version of Logos. I realize that some do not upgrade to new Logos versions because of finances but I don't think this is true in others. I have often wondered what the reasons were for this so I decided to start a new thread to discuss it.

Thanks for helping me learn.

I guess I am an "others" [H]

I am still running Libronix 3.0g too. For several reasons. The main reason is that my initial experience with L4 was so bad. First, I had all kinds of lockups and crashes. Then no sooner did I have it up and running and L5 was released. Add to that the tremendous confusion of what you did/didn't get with one "minimal crossgrade" vs another. I was told that if I upgraded directly to L5, I would lose things that were in the L4 crossgrade, but it was next to impossible to narrow down the precise differences.

To give you a short list:

1) BUGS: Libronix has a few minor ones. L4/L5 still have many serious ones, even after months of beta testing by early adopters.

2) CONTROL: I have complete control over my Libronix Library. I can reinstall it all on a new computer tomorrow without ever contacting a Logos server. I don't need Internet. If I am short on disk space I can delete the resources I do not need. I can locate Resources anywhere I please ... even removable media, and Libronix can access and use them. If I pull the removable media out, the next time it runs it still runs fine, just without those resources. No 5 hour downloads and reindexes needed.

3) SPEED: Libronix was never really very fast. It was always a dog back in its own day. But compared to L4/L5 it is a highly tuned, high speed racing maching .... that runs even on older hardware.

I recently created a lightweight virtual machine to run Libronix in, although it runs fine natively on my Windows 7 machine with IE10 installed. This paves the way to possibly trying out L5 again at some point in the future. I am not sure if all the major bugs have been squashed yet, but I am sure progress has been made since I last tried it.

I do appreciate the new Logos software for its cross-platform abilities. I like having access on my Android tablet, and on my B&N Nook. I think it was a very poor choice though on the part of the developers to use .NET in order to save some coding effort.

They now have a program that runs on both Windows and Mac, but is a total dog on both platforms. People have to upgrade computers that are only a couple years old because they can't handle a Bible program? That's a shame. And it is the result of falling for Microsofts developer manipulation techniques.

Right now I will stick with what I have. Someday in the future I will probably invest more money in good Bible software. It looks like the best portable solution available right now is Accordance on the iPad. I wish I had $2000 to spend on it right now, but that will have to wait. I can READ my resources in Logos on a tablet, but searching and doing any kind of study is a bit lacking.

I would not even consider, not for a second, investing large sums of money into Logos resources in the future. In order for Logos software to compete on the PC, it would have to be completely rewritten from scratch, minus .NET and WPF and whatever other 3 party junk it relies on now that prevents full 64-bit memory access and performance.

The sad part is that when Libronix was abandoned for L4, there was a clean slate available. They did in essence start from scratch. This was the greatest opportunity Logos has ever had to write something that would outperform the other companies programs and impress everyone, even on older hardware. But a poor choice of platform ensured that even a brand new rewrite would still carry a Microsoft ball and chain. Early adopters had computers indexing for hours, locking up and crashing. And once they got it running, they discovered a lack of features that they had already enjoyed with the older software.

So you tell me Bruce, is the software mature enough and bug free enough for me to give it another try? I will be trying it again soon. But my trusty old Libronix Library is always going to be there by its side [:D]

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/522109#Comment_522109

Thanks Denise. Although I personally don't agree with a number of your conclusions I appreciate you taking time to help explain things to me.

I do wish that someone could do their own backup with L5. Personally I'm right on the edge of high speed internet. Literally right around the corner high speed is not an option and I feel for those who don't have access or who can't afford it.

Adam Rao

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/522126#Comment_522126

I don't disagree with the folks expressing that Logos is "slanted" theologically towards Reformed resources. However, I'd say that the other products on the market are far "worse." (Assuming, of course, Reformed theology isn't your cup of tea.)

If anything, Logos has more non-Reformed resources that actually matter to me. That's why I switched! The Anchor Yale Bible commentary set is just one big example of that.

Now, I don't know if those resources run on Logos 4/5 exclusively or if they'll run on Libronix as well, but I, for one, am pretty pleased with Logos' diverse offerings. I just buy what I need/want and avoid the rest. Seems simple enough to me.

(That said, I'd still very much like to see the Old Testament Library/New Testament Library, the New Interpreter's Bible, and a number of other resources make it publication ahead of other resources, but 'tis life.)

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/522119#Comment_522119

So you tell me Bruce, is the software mature enough and bug free enough for me to give it another try? I will be trying it again soon. But my trusty old Libronix Library is always going to be there by its side

Not Bruce, obviously. I have a Dell (Win7) I bought in 2009, that runs Logos it rarely crashes, but then I'm one of those beta testers who tries things early. I also run it on an even older Dell (Vista) laptop. I've never had a crash on the laptop, as far as I can remember (don't run beta's on the laptop).

As for speed, Logos 5.1 is quite a bit faster than Logos4 ever was. I think it's faster than Libronix, but I haven't used Libronix since Logos 4 was released.I just did a search on my entire library of over 5000 books for ["preparation for worship" OR "worship preparation"] (without brackets, of course). I got 202 results in 163 articles in 100 resources in 3.54 seconds. The results display (which was an issue early on in L4) was almost instantaneous as well.

Now, the Mac environment has had its share of bugs.

John

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/522129#Comment_522129

As for speed, Logos 5.1 is quite a bit faster than Logos4 ever was. I think it's faster than Libronix, but I haven't used Libronix since Logos 4 was released.I just did a search on my entire library of over 5000 books for ["preparation for worship" OR "worship preparation"] (without brackets, of course). I got 202 results in 163 articles in 100 resources in 3.54 seconds. The results display (which was an issue early on in L4) was almost instantaneous as well.

Thanks Richard. Maybe this coming weekend I'll give it another try [H]

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/522119#Comment_522119

So you tell me Bruce, is the software mature enough and bug free enough for me to give it another try?

Of course I can only speak for myself but I am very satisfied with L5. I have had very few crashes and issues of any sort so I would classify myself as a very satisfied user. I remember the L3 days and even before that but I have no desire to ever return to those times. I hear your concerns but I still think that the benefits far outweigh the issues you and Denise have outlined. So, yes, I would say "give it a try again". [Y]

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/522134#Comment_522134

Ok. It looks like it's time to take the gloves off. I was positively floored when Richard thought 5.1 could beat 3g.

Like saying a VW camper isn't always in front on the uphill.

I did a certified user speed test. I took my stylus and moving it a full panel, checked to see how many rows of text could be moved:

Logos 5.1: 4 rows

Libronix 3g: 14 rows

That would be a 250% speed advantage (critical when speed reading and it's really boring)

Dan Francis

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/522119#Comment_522119

They now have a program that runs on both Windows and Mac, but is a total dog on both platforms. People have to upgrade computers that are only a couple years old because they can't handle a Bible program? That's a shame. And it is the result of falling for Microsofts developer manipulation techniques.

My 2010 macbook Pro was replaced by apple because of an incompetent repair job… my new computer is faster a mid 2012 model but the main thing here that i believe has sped up Logos dramatically for me is switching to an SSD. Logos is disk intensive and i think for better or worse you all most need an SSD to have a speedy time with Logos.

So you tell me Bruce, is the software mature enough and bug free enough for me to give it another try? I will be trying it again soon. But my trusty old Libronix Library is always going to be there by its side

THE Latest release seems to finally have the mac side working flawlessly for me (was working well before but quite often had to force quit to get Logos to actually fully quit, now it shuts down properly for me.

-Dan

Wild Eagle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/522147#Comment_522147

Ok. It looks like it's time to take the gloves off. I was positively floored when Richard thought 5.1 could beat 3g.

Like saying a VW camper isn't always in front on the uphill.

I did a certified user speed test. I took my stylus and moving it a full panel, checked to see how many rows of text could be moved:

Logos 5.1: 4 rows

Libronix 3g: 14 rows

That would be a 250% speed advantage (critical when speed reading and it's really boring)

if I would install win 98 to my current PC it would outbid Win 7 by far more than 250%. But there is a reason why it has Win 7 and not my old 98

Mike Childs

While while I do not agree with Denise on L5, and I think Bob P. does a magnificent job leading Logos, I am very thankful for Denise and her contribution to these forums. Her comments are among the most helpful and thoughtful. I always respect her opinions.

JohnB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/522004#Comment_522004

I don't know about Denise, but I know that I have made fewer purchases as LOGOS as leaned more and more toward a reformed theology. Not only are these not the products I want, but I think it hurts LOGOS' desire (I thought) to be a tool for the whole church.

Could this be because a high proportion of Logos users who actively are buying books are of the Reformed tradition? 1) I am not of that tradition and 2) I am just surmising. If I am correct then it makes business sense to lean more in that direction so that they stay in business which benefits all of us and enables them to be a tool for the whole church. I am one of those who is benefiting from a dedicated product manager but I am very sensitive that unless what he is able to offer is supported by myself and others of my persuasion, they will not get past Pre-pub and Logos will see no point in offering similar items in the future.
Sad as it may be, that is life as it is.

Stephen Miller

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/522158#Comment_522158

I still run both L3 and L5. As time goes on I am using L5 more.

But the reasons I have stuck with both is ...

1. I was able to write macros in L3 which configured L3 the way I wanted it.

2. Colour, colour, colour. I love using different colours for Hebrew, Greek text etc. L5 is neat, possibly even crisp, but bland.

3. The way I used L3 was to set up a WORKSPACE for a particular project, eg a series of sermons on Daniel. This would involve having about 20 books set up ready to go. eg several lexicons keylinked to the Hebrew text.

4. Early experience of L5 was of continuous library indexing, possibly in part caused by my addiction to setting up programs other than the default recommendation.

Nearly all my time in Logos is spent Hebrew/Greek text based. I don't find L5 has improved this language study.

Stephen Miller

Sydney, Australia

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/522129#Comment_522129

As for speed, Logos 5.1 is quite a bit faster than Logos4 ever was. I think it's faster than Libronix

I still use L3 most of the time, and I use it because it is faster than L5.1, and it isn't even close. While L5 does do some things faster than L3 like searching, but in doing simple things like scrolling, clicking on an icon, starting, closing, ... L3 is simply a faster program, and it isn't even close.

Another reason why I use L3 is because of notes. While notes have come a long way since they came out with L4, they still lag behind L3 (I have images, videos and mp3s embedded in my notes).

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/522109#Comment_522109

I don't think Denise refers to book resources here… I think she refers to things such as "speaker labels," etc. Those, of course, will always have a theological bent as well.

[Y]

tom

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/522119#Comment_522119

The sad part is that when Libronix was abandoned for L4, there was a clean slate available. They did in essence start from scratch. This was the greatest opportunity Logos has ever had to write something that would outperform the other companies programs and impress everyone, even on older hardware. But a poor choice of platform ensured that even a brand new rewrite would still carry a Microsoft ball and chain. Early adopters had computers indexing for hours, locking up and crashing. And once they got it running, they discovered a lack of features that they had already enjoyed with the older software.

Hindsight is always 20/20. When you are an early adopter, you do get burned. Bob has said that using the platform choice they did was a mistake, and he has said that over and over and over again.

When they were making the decision to produce L4, which was years before L4 even came out, it did look like the current platform was the way to go because of the promises that it had. The problem is that it also had a lot of issues. By the time L4, not only were developers starting to abandoned the platform, MS was backing off its development of the platform for it was making changes for its own future.

As far as I know, the dust hasn't settled on where computing is going. Until more dust has settled, I believe we are stuck with what we have.

BKMitchell

Hello Bruce,

You asked:

... I have often wondered what the reasons were for this so I decided to start a new thread to discuss it...

Now, here are a few reason some do not upgraded or rather prefer Libronix over Logos4/5:

(a) check this out http://www.logos.com/support/lbs/HebrewRegularExpressions basically none of those searches are possible in Logos4/5, currently. Yet, these are the types of searches that people I know use weekly if not daily.

(b) The syntactical WIVU database (not to be confused with the grammatical WIVU) of the SESB 3 has never been updated to work with Logos4/5! Want to use the WIVU? Then, you have only two options (a) Libronix Or (b) Emdros database (link)

(c) Indexing (I know on newer computers this isn't so much of an issue) But, when Logos4 was first released many I know were not prepared for indexing and were put off by it.

(d) Libronix and Logos4 had an Original Language library/base package and that was great for those who were strictly interested in Exegesis and textual studies. Well, Logos5 got read of it because it was too confusing for those who wanted upgradable libraries or it didn't make enough money (Yes, I know Logos sells a Biblical Language base package BUT only to enrolled students). Now, if others want those tools/resources they need to buy them separately or they need to purchase one of the more expensive higher libraries that have textual tools but usually come with a lot of other stuff. Only, the Portfolio package has everything that is in the new Biblical language package. I am sorry to say, but this is very disappointing to many I know.

(e) Ability, to install just the books you want to install.

(f) Speed and low system requirements.

(g) Lack of Japanese Bible translations. A version of Libronix sold in Japan has a Japanese GUI and Japanese Bible. (I know Logos is working on a Japanese interface for Logos5 but the still do not have any Japanese Bibles available).

I have the Logos5 minimal upgrade, but I still keep Libronix around for areas were Logos5 is weak.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/522158#Comment_522158

Wild Eagle ... we still have a Win95 going just to support the older synths.

BK ... well written points. I'm still impressed the JBS site displays the L5 logo.

Frank Sauer

For me the main issue for Libronix still around is the lack of the true effectiveness of the Sermon File Add-In. Logos calls it a completed feature but is truly lacking in comparison to the ease of use and productivity of the original that was sold to customers.

I believe via conversations with Bob that he never liked it and it sounded as though there was not a real plan to implement it in V4 and beyond had it not been for the outcry of those who use it. So we are left with a shadow of the addin in V5.

BKMitchell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/522281#Comment_522281

One more reason:

http://community.logos.com/forums/t/74789.aspx

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/522119#Comment_522119

2) CONTROL: I have complete control over my Libronix Library. I can reinstall it all on a new computer tomorrow without ever contacting a Logos server. I don't need Internet. If I am short on disk space I can delete the resources I do not need. I can locate Resources anywhere I please ... even removable media, and Libronix can access and use them. If I pull the removable media out, the next time it runs it still runs fine, just without those resources. No 5 hour downloads and reindexes needed.

Until the link to SermonCentral was broken in L3, it was my preferred tool. Afterwards, I got serious about learning L4, & then L5. After a long period of learning, I've grown to appreciate L5. Today, I'd have to say that my preferred tool is L5. Frankly, it's now a much better tool, especially when run on adequate hardware. And speed is adequate if not stellar even on my relatively slow i7 machine (specs in my signoff); initial startup or a change of layout each take less than 10 sec--usually around 4-5 sec. And response time once it's open? Almost always good. (What's good ? ALWAYS under a second. Otherwise, I'll risk losing my flow of thought while waiting on the computer instead of focusing on the work.)

Most L5 functionality (with notable exceptions, listed in this thread) now meets or exceeds L3.

But I don't LOVE L5 the way I loved L3 & its predecessors. As I read the responses in this thread, I began to wonder why? I think John's words (quoted) strike at the heart of the difference in my feelings.

I LIKE L5. It's even my preferred tool. But I don't think I'll ever love it they way I loved L3. Why? It isn't completely mine. Dependence on the cloud has changed "everything." It's brought many benefits to portable & wearable devices that would've been much more difficult, otherwise. I understand that. But I still don't like that dependence. And I won't. Ever. I just don't want to be THAT connected.

Thanks for starting this thread. It's triggered an interesting reflection....

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/523238#Comment_523238

Thanks everyone for helping me understand your perspectives more.

I am encouraged that Logos is listening to this conversation and I have confidence they will continue to improve a product that is amazing to make it even better - http://community.logos.com/forums/t/74806.aspx