Rapture (caught-up)
I was "caught-up" so-to speak, on the subject of the "Rapture" on Amazon.com. I was browsing the theology section, and was reading some of the replies on the subject. As I was reading the rebuttals, I came across a reply that seemed to have no challenge or rebuttal to it. I thought that I would lay this out here for the experienced and see what they make of it.
As for myself, I do study scripture, but only basically, for pleasure using Logos and mostly reading from hardback books. I'm just curious as to how many flaws this person would have in his post.
Post following:
V. Sirois says:
There is nothing in our future for fulfilled Bible Prophecy - everything was fulfilled in the first century just as Jesus promised, in the destruction of Jerusalem.
The main problem you seem to be having is that you base everything on the "PHYSICAL" aspect of eschatology, when it was never meant to be that way (except in the Old covenant aspect of shadow/type) and everything would be fulfilled in the spiritual aspect of new covenant promised fulfillment.
John says, "Little children , IT IS THE LAST TIME.And even as ye heard that anti-christ will come (in the last time), even now there are many anti-christs, WHERE_BY WE KNOW THAT IT IS THE LAST TIME." The many anti-christs proved that the predicted "Anti-Christ" was already full bloom in the first century.
How can we be living in the last days, when they were living in the LAST TIME of the last days in the fullness of the Spirit of Anti-Christ.??? The falling away took place in the first century as predicted by Christ and Paul.
If you want, I have an excellent little booklet that puts this subject to rest as to a first century fulfillment, along with a few books that I'll send free of charge, which have never been refuted.
Look at 2Pet.3. Peter is speaking to his first century audience about things that were predicted by the Prophets for THEIR last days. The False Teachers were questioning the soon second-coming, just as those of Noah's days. Both groups were denying a soon coming judgment on their generations.
Notice what Peter says in the Greek, 'Seeing then that all these things ARE BEING DISSOLVED (present tense, first century scenario), what manner of persons ought you (first century believers) to be,......presently waiting and presently hastening the presence of the day of God, on account of which the heavens already being on fire will be dissolved, and the elements already burning already melt."
Peter says he was living in the LAST DAYS - was he lying ?? (1Pet. 1:5, 20 / 4:5-7).
Read 2 Pet.2:1--3:7. Compare with all of Jude. They are both pointing to a present (first century ) situation in their last days. The last days scoffers were among them - the Greek text emphatically brings this out.
2 Pet. anticipates a fulfillment for first century believers, otherwise Peter would have said, "Don't worry about a thing, Jesus ain't coming back for 2000 years or so, you'll be dead so you won't be able to eagerly "LOOK" for Him anyways." Jude was actually written as a fulfillment of many of 2 Pet.3. Compare Jude with 2 Pet.
Also what Jude says in vs.14, that the coming of Christ to execute judgement would be on the first century wicked.
Also vss.17-19 , "...words spoken by the apostles" (Peter); "...There would be mockers in the last time walking after their own lusts...(2Pet.3:3); "THESE are the ones presently Separating themselves ( first century wicked amidst the first century believers).
1 Pet.1:5..."salvation about to be revealed in the last time."
1 Pet.4:4 (first century wicked speaking evil).
1 Pet.4:5 (first century wicked will give account "to Him who is on the verge of judging the quick and dead."
1 Pet.4:7 "The end of all things is at hand" (therefore, the first century believers were to be sober and watch.)
75% of Jude is in the present tense, signifying that wickedness was a first century problem (specific letter to specific people) and that judgement would be dished out in the first century as a relief to first century believers.
BTW, The word RAPTURE "harpazo" in the greek never gives any inclination of direction (up), but simply means "to be seized, taken hold of, taken advantage of,.. see Theological dictionary of the new testament & New international Dictionary of N.T. Theology. If "UP" was implied, then the Greek prefix/preposition "ana" or possibly (unlikely) "ek" would be used with "harpazo" to give it direction, but they are not used.
Here are 2 articles that might help to understand the issue of the rapture: They are from Don Preston's web-site. He is a Preacher, Author, and Debater who has never been refuted in his understanding of Full-Preterism. You can read a load of other articles as well that have to do with Eschatology:
http://www.eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=79:thessalonians-and-the-olivet-discourse&catid=33:matthew-24&Itemid=61
http://www.eschatology.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=166:leaving-the-rapture-behind&catid=42:time-statements&Itemid=61
The question needs to be asked, "Who is Jesus talking to in Matt.24, and who are the letters written to in the new testament."
He said, "THIS GENERATION" (demonstrative pronoun/specific first century contemporary people)= 40 year period=30a.d. - 70a.d.
The second coming was in their immediate future, otherwise Christ and Paul were both liars. All you have to do is read the context of Matt. 24(which starts at the end of Chap.23, and you'll see that it all coincides with the disciples question about the temple complex and the end of the age-mosaic age -(not end of the world-bad translation from the KJV.) which would take place in their immediate future with the destruction of the temple in 70ad - that is why the second coming and resurrection were in the future. We are reading first century mail to those who would see these things take place in their generation.
Jesus Himself said that He would return "In the Glory of the Father".
What did He mean by that statement?? God's glory was revealed in His judgemnets on nations in the Old Testament (Read the examples below) - but first read this:
The parallel texts for Mark 13:30 are Matt.24:1-44 and Luke 17:20-37 ; 21:5-36. In all 3 gospels, Christ is addressing the disciples questions surrounding the temple and it's destruction, which would be in that generation, ("this" generation = specific to the disciples, 40 years (30a.d.-70a.d.).
After they were admiring the First century temple buildings in Matt.24:1, Jesus tells His disciples in Matt.24:2 "See all these things? There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." He was specifically talking about the first century temple.
After this the disciples ask, "When will these things take place,(the destruction of the temple) and what will be the sign of your presence and the end of the age (Mosaic Age) - the Jews saw life in 2 ages: Mosaic Age and Messianic Age., in essence, "What will be the sign that You are reigning as Messiah and the Mosaic age has been done away with??"
The "sign" that Christ was reigning and the end of the Mosaic age, is seen in Matt.24:27-30.
Vs.27: As bright as lightning is, it means an imminent storm. The tribulation would reveal the soon coming of Christ (His presence in judgement).
Vs.29: The sun would be darkened, moon not give light, the stars fall from heaven.
Many believe this to be a literal destruction of the universe, but nothing could be further from the truth.
Jesus was talking to His "Jewish" disciples. The Jews saw this as "Apocalyptic Language" that described God's judgement upon nations.
Read the following passages from the Old Testament to see how this language was used:
Ps.18:7-13 & 2 Sam.22:1-16 (David delivered out of Sauls hands)
Isa.13:1-11 (Judgement on Babylon)
Ezek. 32:1-16 (judgement on Egypt)
Isa.34:1-10 (judgement on Idumea & Bozrah) - see also Luke 23:28-30 & Rev.6:13-16 & Hosea 10:8 (judgements on Israel)
Amos 8:1-11 (judgement on Israel)
Joel 1:11-15 w/ Matt.21:33-46; Joel 2:28-32 (judgements on Israel)
There are a few more, but I'm sure you know what Jesus was saying - Judgement is coming soon on Jerusalem, and that would be in 70a.d.
Vs. 30: Judgement upon Jerusalem would be the sign that Christ was reigning in heaven at the right hand of the Father (Matt.26:63-66 - Christ was claiming that He would judge them, even as the Father had done in the Old Testament). The tribes of the land of Israel would mourn when they saw their only means of communication with God destroyed(the temple). The old heaven and earth would give way to the New Heaven and earth (old covenant -new covenant).
Pertaining to the Resurrection, read this:
1 Cor.15:25 says in the greek, "For He must PRESENTLY reign til all enemies are put under His feet; the last enemy PRESENTLY BEING destroyed is THE DEATH (specific death=spiritual death in Adam).
Christ was PRESENTLY reigning in the first century til His enemies (Israel=those who rejected Christ - read Matt.23:29-36) were put under His feet in 70a.d.
If physical death was PRESENTLY BEING destroyed, don't you think we would see some kind of evolutionary process going on with our bodies, being half physical and half spiritual???
Also, read verses 29-49 and see how often the PRESENT Tense is used in the Greek.
Vs.29 "what will they do who are being baptized for the dead if the dead are not presently rising??" (first century resurrection!!)
Vs. 32,"If the dead are not presently rising, let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die."
Vs. 35, "But someone will say, How are the dead Being presently raised up? And with what body are they presently coming into? (first century resurrection).
Vs. 36, "Foolish one, what you are presently sowing is not made alive unless it dies (first century sowing).
Vs.37, "And what you are presently sowing, you are not presently sowing that body that shall be.....(first century sowing of the body - were they burying their bodies before they died???-think about it!!!)
Vs. 38 "But God is presently giving it a body (first century transformation = out of the body of Adam(old covenant,sin-death, into the new covenant body of Christ = righteousness, eternal life)
Vs. 42-44, "So also is the present resurrection of the dead. The body is presently being sown in corruption, it is presently being raised in incorruption. It is presently being sown in dishonor, it is presently being raised in glory. It is presently being sown in weakness, it is presently being raised in power. It is presently being sown a natural body(man in Adam = out of covenant), it is presently being raised a spiritual body (first century transformation period = taken out of Adam (dead to God) and being transformed into the image of Christ (alive to God). There is presently a natural body and there is presently a spiritual body (one was being sown, the other rising unto newness of life.).
Full-Preterism is the only eschatological view that truly keeps with a Grammatico-Historical Hermeneutic of Scripture.
It is sad to say, but all those that believe in a "future-to-us" second coming and resurrection, will ultimately die without ever seeing it come to pass - that's because we are reading someone elses mail (first century believers) and all prophecy was fulfilled by 70a.d.
If you would like a free DVD and Book that explain the true symbolism of the Scriptures - along with the fact that Full-Preterism is irrefutable, then let me know here.
I would appreciate any thought on this piece of work.
Enjoy
dwdraw2
Comments
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Daniel Presley said:
As for myself, I do study scripture, but only basically, for pleasure using Logos and mostly reading from hardback books. I'm just curious as to how many flaws this person would have in his post.
According to the author of the post, none. According to many others, many (including me).
I think eschatology is the last things we should discuss in these forums. [;)]
Since these forums are not the place to discuss theology (let alone eschatology!), I hesitate to comment further. He takes the preterist view (or at least a version of it). I would hesitate to agree with or debunk that view here. But I could say that there are those who hold this view who's faith I would not question.
Looks a little self-promoting too (last paragraph).
Logos does have a myriad of resources on eschatology. This includes Four Views on Revelation, which you may find interesting. But it doesn't discuss the preterist view itself in depth. It does however represent the preterist view as it goes through Revelation as a commentary.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Since the only way to answer this post is by resource recommendations, one book I see in Logos that may shed some light either to confirm one's faith or challenge it is, "Will Catholics be left behind?", by Carl Olsen. I think you have it if you have Silver and above, otherwise it can be purchased here for $13.95. The synopsis:
Carl Olson grew up with many misconceptions about the “end times.” This study is a thorough critique of the popular notion of the “Rapture”—the belief that Christians will be removed from earth prior to a time of Tribulation and the Second Coming. It examines the theological, historical, and biblical basis for premillennial dispensationalism, the belief system based around the Rapture, and popularized in the best-selling Left Behind books.
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Don Awalt said:
Since the only way to answer this post is by resource recommendations, one book I see in Logos that may shed some light either to confirm one's faith or challenge it is, "Will Catholics be left behind?", by Carl Olsen. I think you have it if you have Silver and above, otherwise it can be purchased here for $13.95. The synopsis:
FYI: I have Platinum, but do not have this resource. It may be in a Verbum bundle, but it is not in any standard bundle, as far as I could tell. Not sure about other bundles.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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It is in the Catholic Scripture Study International Studies (30 vols.) (International Version) which is not sold in any Logos 5 / Verbum package. It is also available as an individual volume. I recommend it as well.Richard DeRuiter said:Don Awalt said:Since the only way to answer this post is by resource recommendations, one book I see in Logos that may shed some light either to confirm one's faith or challenge it is, "Will Catholics be left behind?", by Carl Olsen. I think you have it if you have Silver and above, otherwise it can be purchased here for $13.95. The synopsis:
FYI: I have Platinum, but do not have this resource. It may be in a Verbum bundle, but it is not in any standard bundle, as far as I could tell. Not sure about other bundles.
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Richard DeRuiter said:
FYI: I have Platinum, but do not have this resource. It may be in a Verbum bundle, but it is not in any standard bundle, as far as I could tell. Not sure about other bundles.
I have L4 Platinum and L5 Gold and don't have the book also.
EDITED: OK, I see the Sleiman's explanation now. Thanks.
Bohuslav
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V. Sirois said:
Full-Preterism is the only eschatological view that truly keeps with a Grammatico-Historical Hermeneutic of Scripture.
It is sad to say, but all those that believe in a "future-to-us" second coming and resurrection, will ultimately die without ever seeing it come to pass - that's because we are reading someone elses [sic] mail (first century believers) and all prophecy was fulfilled by 70a.d.I find this statement rather interesting. It is certainly at odds with much of the forum with regard to the scriptures—it would appear to not be so "useful for teaching, for reproof …" if it is simply "someone else's mail." Even though my view of scripture differs somewhat from many of the members here, I attach greater importance to it than simply "someone else's mail." What else would we then consider to be "someone else's mail"? Isaiah, Hosea, Paul's Epistle to the Romans? Where does this lead?
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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George Somsel said:
What else would we then consider to be "someone else's mail"? Isaiah, Hosea, Paul's Epistle to the Romans? Where does this lead?
So true.
Bohuslav
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Much of the answers to these questions lie in whether or not God's promises to Israel were intended to happen to literal Israel or whether the Church would replace Israel and the blessings would be primarily received "spiritually". Logos has a book called, Israelology, written from a dispensationalist perspective but through extesnive quoting from other schools of thought, laying out the systematic theology on the topic of the future of Israel. I highly recommend it: http://www.logos.com/product/3901/israelology-the-missing-link-in-systematic-theology
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
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Pick up the book: The end is near, or, maybe not.
Kenneth Myers.
Available on Kindle, very inexpensive.
Will help a great deal with understanding an Eschatology of Hope.
Grace and Peace
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If the book of Revelation was written in 90 a.d. then that goes against everything beings fulfilled in 70 a.d.
From my understanding "this generation" that does not pass away refers to the generation of that context. Which would be the one that see's the signs vs.33 that chapter 24 of Matthew is all about.
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Divinesoteriology said:
If the book of Revelation was written in 90 a.d. then that goes against everything beings fulfilled in 70 a.d.
From my understanding "this generation" that does not pass away refers to the generation of that context. Which would be the one that see's the signs vs.33 that chapter 24 of Matthew is all about.
Not necessarily. The Greek γενεά which is used here could also mean "race, kind."
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Richard DeRuiter said:
According to the author of the post, none. According to many others, many (including me
Thanks for your reply. It is humorous, I never thought of it in that light.
I will check out the books.
Thanks again.
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Thanks for your reply.
I will check-out the books you recommended.
Thanks again.
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Tanks for the reply.
I didn't think of that in that light (someone else's mail.) It blew right by me, or maybe through my ears.
I do read some Eschatology, but I don't recall reading anything on "Preterism."
Thanks again.
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Thanks for your reply.
I will check out the link and book.
Thanks again
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Thanks for your reply.
Makes sense as to what you are saying "to the generation of that context."
Thanks again
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George Somsel said:Divinesoteriology said:
If the book of Revelation was written in 90 a.d. then that goes against everything beings fulfilled in 70 a.d.
From my understanding "this generation" that does not pass away refers to the generation of that context. Which would be the one that see's the signs vs.33 that chapter 24 of Matthew is all about.
Not necessarily. The Greek γενεά which is used here could also mean "race, kind."
Indeed..
"This is one of the hardest verses in the gospels to interpret. Various views exist for what generation means. (1) Some take it as meaning “race” and thus as an assurance that the Jewish race (nation) will not pass away. But it is very questionable that the Greek term γενεά (genea) can have this meaning. Two other options are possible. (2) Generation might mean “this type of generation” and refer to the generation of wicked humanity. Then the point is that humanity will not perish, because God will redeem it. Or (3) generation may refer to “the generation that sees the signs of the end” (v. 30), who will also see the end itself. In other words, once the movement to the return of Christ starts, all the events connected with it happen very quickly, in rapid succession."
Biblical Studies Press. (2006). The NET Bible First Edition; Bible. English. NET Bible.; The NET Bible. Biblical Studies Press.Whatever the word means, does not seem to change the context to which the "generation" is connected. Meaning that the "generation" is tied to those who see the signs of the coming of the son of man.
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NET's 'hardest verses ... to interpret'. Right.
I don't thnk that was the problem, unless Jesus had special signs made up that the 'genea' could look at for the lexical meaning.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Thanks for the book recommendation "Will Catholics be Left Behind." I'll check-out the link
You guys are already on top of this. Being that I don't study all versions (beliefs) in Eschatology, I wasn't aware that this was a Catholic version. Myself, I'm dispensation. That's primarily what I read about.
Thanks again
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Good point!
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Peace, Daniel!
*smile* If you enjoy novels, Logos' Vyrso Division has a couple on different sides of the question ... the Left Behind Series - and then Hannegraff's response with the Last Temple series. Last Sacrifice, Last Disciple, Last Temple....
I've read both sides and enjoyed them both!
Actually, I enjoyed the Hannegraff-Brouwer books a little more since they were more geared to Biblical times and themes rather than defending the Rapture.... also heavy on Palestine at the time of John the Apostle ....... tear jerkers! Yes! *smile*
Maybe some others have read these also???
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Denise said:
NET's 'hardest verses ... to interpret'. Right.
I don't thnk that was the problem, unless Jesus had special signs made up that the 'genea' could look at for the lexical meaning.
Words have meaning, but meaning is based on context. From that passage it is easy to ascertain the context is about the coming of the son of man. However, the context is not really helpful with the proper interpretation of genea in this certain passages. The word means different things in different contexts. In this context we do not have a lot to go on.. Hence the possibilities..
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I can blow so many holes in preterism that preterists would have a hard time giving themselves a splinter with the remains. But the same is true for every "ism" out there; they are all provincial fiefdoms battling for their own six feet of earth...which will one day cover them. The entire history of Christianity is a tedious parade of 'isms", each attempting to supplant what went before with its own proprietary answers for perceived previous errors. Take just one example--Calvinism, or the more palatable moniker, "Reformed". Now, considering YHWH and His jealous nature, what are the chances that He would allow his precious Truth to ever be rightly addressed as "reformed"? The very idea is insulting and any answer to the question not equivalent to zero is absurd. His Truth won't be categorized in that way, and every time you try to pin it like a moth to a board, it suddenly goes all mercurial on you. If you have pinned something to a board, and have assigned a name to it, I assure you--it isn't Truth.
The proper name for that beast is "arrogance".
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Jacob Hantla is correct, what one has to ascertain is what applies to Israel and what is meant for the church.This plays a big part in how one views eschatology. A good book on discussing the difference between dispensationalism, and covenant theology is continuity and discontinuity by Feinberg
[View:http://www.logos.com/product/2915/continuity-and-discontinuity:550:0]
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Divinesoteriology said:
Jacob Hantla is correct, what one has to ascertain is what applies to Israel and what is meant for the church.This plays a big part in how one views eschatology. A good book on discussing the difference between dispensationalism, and covenant theology is continuity and discontinuity by Feinberg
[View:http://www.logos.com/product/2915/continuity-and-discontinuity:550:0]
Both approaches are wrong.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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David Paul said:
Both approaches are wrong.
What resource(s) would you recommend that would best align with your perspective?
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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The answer may seem crass, but other than the Bible, there are none. Prophecy describes the situation as it exists today and it says the resolution will come quickly. There will be time for those of a willing heart to make adjustments, and then the fat lady sings.
EDIT: Fwiw, I am working on a book now that will establish a profound example of what I am talking about as far as the disconnect of the current state is concerned. It will speak for itself...can't say more.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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There really doesn't seem to be much point in saying "let's not discuss theology here," is there. [heavy sigh]
Eschatology seems especially fraught with differences, nuances, emphases, disagreements, name-calling, pigeon-holing, and my favorite "misinterpreting the obvious meaning" (if it were obvious..., never mind).
I would encourage this discussion to move elsewhere, maybe to Faithlife.
Now, if someone has a Logos book to suggest...
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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David Paul said:
The answer may seem crass, but other than the Bible, there are none.
I think that almost everyone would say this regarding their position.
Richard DeRuiter said:Now, if someone has a Logos book to suggest...
I agree. This is what I was asking David Paul to do.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Divinesoteriology ... when Jesus needs lexical meaning choices, maybe a conclusion is being given to Jesus to help him out.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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[Y]Richard DeRuiter said:There really doesn't seem to be much point in saying "let's not discuss theology here," is there. [heavy sigh]
Eschatology seems especially fraught with differences, nuances, emphases, disagreements, name-calling, pigeon-holing, and my favorite "misinterpreting the obvious meaning" (if it were obvious..., never mind).
I would encourage this discussion to move elsewhere, maybe to Faithlife.
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Milford Charles Murray said:
Actually, I enjoyed the Hannegraff-Brouwer books a little more since they were more geared to Biblical times and themes rather than defending the Rapture.... also heavy on Palestine at the time of John the Apostle ....... tear jerkers! Yes! *smile*
Maybe some others have read these also???
Enjoyed the "Last" series, read all of the LaHay stuff when I was a teenager
, Have two in dead tree format and have bought them in the Logos format. For me, they are a nice to read and relax with. [Y]Some day soon I will buy the last one in the "Last" series. I thought they were a breath of fresh air after enduring so may "Left Behind" books. [;)]
http://hombrereformado.blogspot.com/ Solo a Dios la Gloria Apoyo
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Richard DeRuiter said:
There really doesn't seem to be much point in saying "let's not discuss theology here," is there. [heavy sigh]
I see I did not miss much here. [O]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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George Somsel said:
Not necessarily. The Greek γενεά which is used here could also mean "race, kind."
That's a spin dispensationalists have been using ever since nothing happened in 1988. They had always claimed prior to that it would be "the generation that sees the fig tree", or as they claimed, the generation which saw Israel become a nation again. (notice that Matthew 24 says nothing about Israel becoming a nation). 1948 + 40 = 1988 = proof that dispensationalism is wrong. [H]
"Obviously, in context, the generation that would see the signs-chief among them the rebirth of Israel. A generation in the Bible is something like forty years. If this is a correct deduction, then within forty years or so of 1948, all these things could take place."
Since then, they either redefine the word to mean race (a view that falls apart completely if you read Matthew 23 and continue into chapter 24.
Or, shifting the year from 1948 to 1967.
Or, claiming that a generation (that EVERYONE agreed previously was 40 years) last 70, 80, or even 120 years.
The only resource I am aware of that speaks directly to the OP's question would be Sproul's "Last Days according to Jesus". Sproul does a side by side study comparing Full vs. Partial preterism while going through the New Testament, and in the process I believe gave us one of the best introductions to the view out there.
Only available on Logos as part of the Sproul collection. $80 on Logos. The Libronix collection is still available for on $15 at CBD. Huge bargain here for sure.
Other Logos resources would be any and all of Gary Demars material, or that of his organization American Vision. Demars books are easy reading, well written and very worthwhile reading.
Kenneth Gentry. Logos has a couple titles. Probably the best "Before Jerusalem fell" apparently not on Logos. Those who still believe Revelation was written in 95AD probably haven't read Gentry.
The Book of Revelation Made Easy: You Can Understand Bible Prophecy
Four Views on the Book of Revelation
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Daniel Presley said:
I do read some Eschatology, but I don't recall reading anything on "Preterism."
J. Stuart Russels Parousia. Best book ever written on the topic of New Testament prophecy. Not available on Logos that I am aware of. Available free online, Google books and various other places. Also in print or on Kindle at Amazon.
Already mentioned Sprouls "Last Days".
Don Preston is really good, has some great material but goes too far in some areas IMO. But I recommend his material as long as you maintain critical thinking.
If you are like I was years ago and have never been exposed to anything but dispensationalism, these books will all be huge eye-openers.
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Divinesoteriology said:
"This is one of the hardest verses in the gospels to interpret."
No it isn't. It is very clear and plain what it says and what it means.
What this commentary SHOULD say is "This is one of the hardest verses in the gospels for dispensationalists to accept."
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John said:Divinesoteriology said:
"This is one of the hardest verses in the gospels to interpret."
No it isn't. It is very clear and plain what it says and what it means.
What this commentary SHOULD say is "This is one of the hardest verses in the gospels for dispensationalists to accept."
[;)]
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Denise said:
Divinesoteriology ... when Jesus needs lexical meaning choices, maybe a conclusion is being given to Jesus to help him out.
Sorry, I am not following you.
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Divinesoteriology said:
In this context we do not have a lot to go on.. Hence the possibilities..
Baloney. The context is perfectly clear. Matt 23 begins the prophesy of the temples destruction. Matt 24 spells it out "not one stone left upon another". The rest of the passages tells what would happen BEFORE the fall of the temple. The temple fell in 70AD, and hence fell within the 40 year generation. And as foretold in Matt 16:28, some of the disciples lived long enough to see it.
The phrase "this generation" is found in the gospels 17 times in 16 verse. Several are parallel passages. Each and every time it references the people who were living in Jesus' day.
In Matthew 11:16-24, Jesus even defined exactly who he was talking about when he used the term. It was those who had heard himself and John the Baptist speak.
In Matthew 23:34-36 the people being spoken of is crystal clear. The different "generations" are mentioned, but the then present generation is the final one Jesus said would "fill up the measure" (Matthew 23:32)
They did fill up the measure by killing Christ and most of his apostles. Once full ... well the history is available for all to read.
"And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath." (Rev 16:19)
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So, John...what are you gonna do when prophecy starts to happen?
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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John said:Divinesoteriology said:
In this context we do not have a lot to go on.. Hence the possibilities..
Baloney. The context is perfectly clear. Matt 23 begins the prophesy of the temples destruction. Matt 24 spells it out "not one stone left upon another". The rest of the passages tells what would happen BEFORE the fall of the temple. The temple fell in 70AD, and hence fell within the 40 year generation. And as foretold in Matt 16:28, some of the disciples lived long enough to see it.
The phrase "this generation" is found in the gospels 17 times in 16 verse. Several are parallel passages. Each and every time it references the people who were living in Jesus' day.
In Matthew 11:16-24, Jesus even defined exactly who he was talking about when he used the term. It was those who had heard himself and John the Baptist speak.
In Matthew 23:34-36 the people being spoken of is crystal clear. The different "generations" are mentioned, but the then present generation is the final one Jesus said would "fill up the measure" (Matthew 23:32)
They did fill up the measure by killing Christ and most of his apostles. Once full ... well the history is available for all to read.
"And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath." (Rev 16:19)
Deleted ---- If you wish to discuss this further
http://forum.divinesoteriology.com/
or
https://faithlife.com/post-tribulationalism/activity
or
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Super Tramp said:Richard DeRuiter said:
There really doesn't seem to be much point in saying "let's not discuss theology here," is there. [heavy sigh]
I see I did not miss much here.
[li][um]
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Peace and Every Blessing, Divinesoteriology!
*smile* You have a FaithLife Debating Platform, I believe??? Perhaps you would invite John to meet you there for your theological debate.
I personally would so very much appreciative it if you two debated elsewhere, please! This thread was always a bit "touchy" ... Richard warned us well -- indeed! However, everyone was trying to be "really cool" !!! Great! Positive! Helpful! Really great!
... now it's beginning to deteriorate; but I believe that some of the positive aspects of our sharing together can yet be saved...
so, again, please consider moving your debate and inviting others to join you ... *smile*
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Milford Charles Murray said:
Peace and Every Blessing, Divinesoteriology!
*smile* You have a FaithLife Debating Platform, I believe??? Perhaps you would invite John to meet you there for your theological debate.
I personally would so very much appreciative it if you two debated elsewhere, please! This thread was always a bit "touchy" ... Richard warned us well -- indeed! However, everyone was trying to be "really cool" !!! Great! Positive! Helpful! Really great!
... now it's beginning to deteriorate; but I believe that some of the positive aspects of our sharing together can yet be saved...
so, again, please consider moving your debate and inviting others to join you ... *smile*
Done ...
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Divinesoteriology said:
The issue with that perspective is the the context is about the son of man arriving or coming, which did not take place in 70 a.d. or in 1843,1844, or in 1914.
It is an indisputable historical fact that the temple was destroyed in 70AD. It is also clear that none other than Jesus himself used the same language concerning the timeframe of that event, and of his "coming in the clouds". In the Old Testament, a "coming in the clouds" was metaphor for divine judgment. Why would that change in the New Testament?
The Lord came riding upon a swift cloud and judged egypt ... in 480 B.C. (Isaiah 19:1)
If you find yourself at a fork in the road, tradition goes one way and scripture goes another, which do you choose?
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Thank you, Blair! *smile* Actually, I was part of your debating FaithLife Group for a wee while; however, way back when the FaithLife Groups were just beginning, you weren't getting many takers, so I think I left your group. If I didn't, I was going to!
Blessings and Kindest Personal Greetings! *smile*
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Peace, Blair! Am just now checking, and I see that I'm still a member of your group! It's getting late now in Eastern Canada. Perhaps I'll check in to say "Hi!" again tomorrow or soonest... *smile*
Right now you have 8 members and two followers in your FaithLife Group! *smile*
Edit!
Or.... if your invitation to debate is not FaithLife, but http://forum.divinesoteriology.com/
... well, then..... please make your invitation clear so we can keep this thread (if it continues!) positive and dealing with Logos Bible Software issues! *smile*
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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It would be great to see more members on
https://faithlife.com/christian-debate/activity
There has not been much activity lately
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George Somsel said:V. Sirois said:
Full-Preterism is the only eschatological view that truly keeps with a Grammatico-Historical Hermeneutic of Scripture.
It is sad to say, but all those that believe in a "future-to-us" second coming and resurrection, will ultimately die without ever seeing it come to pass - that's because we are reading someone elses [sic] mail (first century believers) and all prophecy was fulfilled by 70a.d.I find this statement rather interesting. It is certainly at odds with much of the forum with regard to the scriptures—it would appear to not be so "useful for teaching, for reproof …" if it is simply "someone else's mail." Even though my view of scripture differs somewhat from many of the members here, I attach greater importance to it than simply "someone else's mail." What else would we then consider to be "someone else's mail"? Isaiah, Hosea, Paul's Epistle to the Romans? Where does this lead?
And this point (to me at least) seems a valid critique of MANY approaches to the Bible and especially Revelation. If it is all about things that happened in the 1st Century, it isn't really for us. And yet it is just about truths for the "end times", then in what way is it for those who died in Christ? And so to me at least, it seems like we are driven by the text to read it in ways that give meaning to it both now AND then
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
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[Y]Ken McGuire said:both now AND then
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