Is everyone welcome here?
In the past couple of weeks, the tone of these forums seems to have changed. I no longer feel welcome.
Nearly every thread that I have subscribed to recently or made a small contribution to has degenerated into opinionated, closed minded drivel. This appears to have been mainly from an antischolarly fundamentalist or conservative point of view. Any other viewpoint is dismissed out of hand, usually without any reasoned argument.
I come to the forums for advice and news on Logos Bible Software. I expect a little discussion of Biblical issues around that, but not that I should have to conform to someone else's views or that my own views will be dismissed out of hand.
Logos is used by a hugely diverse group of people: Christians of all types, other groups related to Christianity, Jews, agnostics, others. A user's theological viewpoint should not affect their acceptance on these forums. With my own progressive, non-conservative viewpoints, I am starting to feel how perhaps the Catholic users have felt here in the past.
My very reason for using the software, is to take a scholarly approach to the Bible and other literature, allowing me to make my own judgements on spiritual matters. I need to be free to explore on my own terms.
Is everyone welcome here?
Comments
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Jonathan Pitts said:
Is everyone welcome here?
Everyone is welcome apart from those who don't treat others with courtesy and respect. I'm pretty sure that means you are very welcome here [:)].
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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I've felt the same way myself a few times.
I come back to these forums because it is still a good source of information and advice. Time and again, I find that there are good interactions. But there are bad days, and bad threads.
However, I wouldn't characterize any antagonism as emanating from any theological angle. I think it's the personalities and egos that set things off rather than particular philosophical or religious persuasions. Sometimes, it's simply because of the cultural divide.
I've been poked fun at for being "conservative" too.
Speaking for myself, yes you are very welcome.
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Mark Barnes said:Jonathan Pitts said:
Is everyone welcome here?
Everyone is welcome apart from those who don't treat others with courtesy and respect. I'm pretty sure that means you are very welcome here
.+1 [Y]
Have joy in the Lord!
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Lee said:
However, I wouldn't characterize any antagonism as emanating from any theological angle. I think it's the personalities and egos that set things off rather than any philosophical or religious persuasion. I've been poked fun at for being "conservative" too.
Speaking for myself, yes you are very welcome.
[Y]
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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Mark Barnes said:Jonathan Pitts said:
Is everyone welcome here?
Everyone is welcome apart from those who don't treat others with courtesy and respect. I'm pretty sure that means you are very welcome here
.Thank you Mark. I was sorry to miss meeting you in person when I came to Bridgend for Steve Runge's course.
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Jonathan I think you are right that there have been some discussions that have drifted in a negative direction but please don't give up on the forums. We just need to continually gently remind folks of the forum guidelines when things get off track. As I often say, there is hardly a day that goes by that I don't learn something new from people here.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Lee said:
However, I wouldn't characterize any antagonism as emanating from any theological angle.
The particular theological angle that I mention has just been in a few threads that I have subscribed to recently. However, time and again I have seen potentially useful threads degenerate into a pointless exchange between two or three posters, which makes the thread unwelcoming to everyone else.
My reason for posting here is simply to ask regular forum users to consider how threads will appear to new users and to users with different viewpoints. A sensible dialogue is what helps here, not just stating your own views and repeating them ad infinitum.
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You make a good point there. [:)]
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Jonathan Pitts said:Lee said:
However, I wouldn't characterize any antagonism as emanating from any theological angle.
The particular theological angle that I mention has just been in a few threads that I have subscribed to recently. However, time and again I have seen potentially useful threads degenerate into a pointless exchange between two or three posters, which makes the thread unwelcoming to everyone else.
My reason for posting here is simply to ask regular forum users to consider how threads will appear to new users and to users with different viewpoints. A sensible dialogue is what helps here, not just stating your own views and repeating them ad infinitum.
[Y]
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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It's sometimes easy to identify the "problem" threads without even opening them.
If you spot a new thread on the forum homepage, and in a short space of time it tends to grow very rapidly, gaining more pages more quickly than most other posts - you can almost be sure there's some heated debate going on there. [:D]
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Paul-C said:
It's sometimes easy to identify the "problem" threads without even opening them.
If you spot a new thread on the forum homepage, and in a short space of time it tends to grow very rapidly, gaining more pages more quickly than most other posts - you can almost be sure there's some heated debate going on there.
I usually avoid them like the plague. The same goes for most theological threads, they usually degenerate really quickly.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Jonathan, you are indeed welcome here! It always amazes me that anyone would feel otherwise - even on the most rabidly secularist/atheist fora, I have felt that I was most welcome, even especially when my arguments were reviled.
Anyway, I am a relative newcomer and I don't believe I've had the pleasure of interacting with you very much; and I cannot say that I know much about you.
However, I must say something about your post, something that is liable to not go over well; and yet, I'm going to say it anyway because methinks it's important and relevant.
I think you imagine that below you are inhabiting a kind of "Switzerland of the Mind" - that you are putting forth a neutral and supremely reasonable point of view. And I am sure there are many people on this forum who agree with you.
But you see, there are some problems with that posture.
First....
Jonathan Pitts said:Nearly every thread that I have subscribed to recently or made a small contribution to has degenerated into opinionated, closed minded drivel. This appears to have been mainly from an antischolarly fundamentalist or conservative point of view. Any other viewpoint is dismissed out of hand, usually without any reasoned argument.
...you seem to be equating "anti scholarly fundamentalism" (a thoroughly loaded term) and "conservative point of view" with "opinionated, close minded drivel" (more loaded terms.)
Consider it this way: what does it signify that "opinionated, close-minded drivel" should appear to only come from those points of view and not from others?
It might mean that you simply don't notice the "opinionated" and "close-minded drivel" that emanates from viewpoints more reconcilable to yours?
Or that you are more likely to see Conservative view points as "close minded"?
Or Fundamentalist viewpoints as "anti-scholarly"?
Or that you have concluded these things about Conservatives and/or Fundamentalists without actually having engaged in first making an attempt to understand those viewpoints?
It is also worth asking what is meant by those terrifically abused words:
- "opinionated" is a word used pejoratively by people who seem to think that at that very moment they are not actually advancing their own opinion, but somehow speaking from some Mt. Olympian region of neutrality.
- "close minded" is a phrase that is often used to describe pejoratively those people with whom we disagree; implying, of course, that the speaker is colossally "open-minded," while at the same time demonstrating that he is manifestly close-minded when it comes to these same allegedly close-minded people.
And so on....
Second....
[quote] I come to the forums for advice and news on Logos Bible Software. I expect a little discussion of Biblical issues around that, but not that I should have to conform to someone else's views or that my own views will be dismissed out of hand......A user's theological viewpoint should not affect their acceptance on these forums. With my own progressive, non-conservative viewpoints, I am starting to feel how perhaps the Catholic users have felt here in the past.
You don't seem to be aware that you are actually expecting other people to conform to YOUR normative notions.
[quote]
My very reason for using the software, is to take a scholarly approach to the Bible and other literature, allowing me to make my own judgements on spiritual matters. I need to be free to explore on my own terms.
THAT^^ is a very radical idea.
Now, you might thoroughly understand how radical it is; you may have come to the conclusion that this is the only or best way to explore the truth....however, please don't imagine that this is some sort of neutral point of view.
Many people, including myself, see this approach as potentially quite dangerous to you as a person.
An isolated person trying his or her best to "figure things out" on his own terms is not only liable but likely to end in error, and at worst to stay there.
All of the above was written in the spirit of love.
~Butters [:)]
“To love means loving the unlovable. To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable. Faith means believing the unbelievable. Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton
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Thank you, Butters. "Love for neighbor" should always hold, even with those whose views are offensive. "Toleration" might mean holding my nose as I engage another.
But more important is love for God, which I take to have objective parameters. But that God says to love the unlovely.
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Jonathan Pitts said:
<A> I come to the forums for advice and news on Logos Bible Software.
<B> Is everyone welcome here?
A) As best you can ignore all of the rest and just use the forum to learn / teach how to use Logos - not what it is used for.
Yes, everyone0 -
Butters said:
I think you imagine that below you are inhabiting a kind of "Switzerland of the Mind" - that you are putting forth a neutral and supremely reasonable point of view. And I am sure there are many people on this forum who agree with you.
But you see, there are some problems with that posture.
Thank you, Butters, for that absolutely outstanding post.
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Jonathan
Everyone is welcomed on the forums. You will find people of all persuasions who are tolerant and intolerant. You will also find people of all persuasions who are respectful and disrespectful. That is simply human nature. I choose not to get offended when someone argues forcefully and disrespectfully a viewpoint I do not agree with. I find much in the forums that is helpful. And I have learned in the forums how God has a way of showing the beam in our eyes when we suggest a group or person has a spec in his/her own eye.
A post like yours shows up from time to time on the forum in various shades. And it will show up again and again. This is because the forum is made up of people described in the Bible as sinners. And as sinners, we all will become frustrated at others in what is written or in the way it is written.
You are welcomed in these forums as much as anyone else.
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Philippians 2:3Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
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Butters said:
...you seem to be equating "anti scholarly fundamentalism" (a thoroughly loaded term) and "conservative point of view" with "opinionated, close minded drivel" (more loaded terms.)
The antischolarly nature of the posts I have been reading could reasonably be considered opinionated and closed minded. They seem to immediately reject anyone who has studied an issue and drawn conclusions from that study. Some of the conclusions have been quite mainstream but have still been rejected, seemingly because of their scholarly origins.
I do not consider conservatism or fundamentalism as necessarily opinionated, closed minded or drivel. They simply seemed to be part of the background to the posts that I have been reading.
Butters said:You don't seem to be aware that you are actually expecting other people to conform to YOUR normative notions.
I hope that the views of everyone here will be tolerated. I don't expect everyone to agree with me, although I occasionally encourage others to look in the same direction as me.
Butters said:THAT^^ is a very radical idea.
Now, you might thoroughly understand how radical it is; you may have come to the conclusion that this is the only or best way to explore the truth....however, please don't imagine that this is some sort of neutral point of view.
Many people, including myself, see this approach as potentially quite dangerous to you as a person.
An isolated person trying his or her best to "figure things out" on his own terms is not only liable but likely to end in error, and at worst to stay there.
It seems to me that the very reason for studying the Bible and other Christian books is for me to interact with other writers and scholars and draw conclusions from that process. It defeats that purpose if I start the process by restricting the possible answers to those that I or others consider to be safe or orthodox. If the evidence points to my preconceptions being false then I need to revise those preconceptions.
I am on a lifelong (perhaps eternal) journey of discovery and education, I have not yet reached the destination. Please tolerate my eccentricities while we walk together.
Butters said:All of the above was written in the spirit of love.
Thank you.
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Mark said:
A post like yours shows up from time to time on the forum in various shades. And it will show up again and again. This is because the forum is made up of people described in the Bible as sinners. And as sinners, we all will become frustrated at others in what is written or in the way it is written.
Yes, I have read similar threads before and will again. There just seemed to have been an increase in intolerance in the last few threads that I have subscribed to, such that it was no longer a pleasure to read the posts. My only hope in posting was to remind people to consider how their posts can affect others and perhaps nudge us back towards the tolerance hoped for in the forum guidelines.
I hope my comments will not be taken as criticism of any particular group of Christians. (I acknowledge that my mentions of fundamentalism and conservatism could be interpreted that way.) I sought only to criticise those who turn useful forum threads into unwelcoming and intolerant exchanges.
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Jonathan,
I would be glad to respond to your very thoughtful response; however, I am presently on my way out to a dinner. In the meantime, I would just like to ask you what you mean by the word "tolerance"? (and its iterations such as "intolerance" and "(in)tolerant") It's a word you seem very fond of using.
~Butters [:)]
“To love means loving the unlovable. To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable. Faith means believing the unbelievable. Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton
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If someone expresses a view then it is open to challenge, if you do not like this then do not express a view in the first place. These forums are not meant to be a forum for anything but logos centric discussions.
Methinks that Logos should publish Carson's "The intolerance of tolerance".
Of course there should be good manners in everything.
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I tried really hard to just click away from this hugely disappointing thread...but I have resolved to make this brief comment:
Toleration is NOT a Godly characteristic in any way whatsoever. It is almost blasphemous to suggest it is. Interestingly, the people I most often hear insisting on toleration are non-Christians. That ought to tell you something. YHWH has ZERO toleration for that which is outside his perfect will. Being Holy, He really has no other choice.
Now, that said, let me say this. Toleration is NOT a godly characteristic, but patience IS. If you are unable to discern the difference, then you need to fervently entreat 'Elohhiym for wisdom and devote yourself to lots of meditation--days, weeks, maybe months worth.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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But you're not God David---I hope you take some years (preferably away from Logos forums) to let that sink in some.
The thread on the synoptic problem which he alludes to in the opening thread was not appropriate for Logos, with blatant off-topic banging of drums and pet theories coupled with a dogmatism which is inappropriate for this forum. The disrespect that permeates such posting is intolerable. I wish some respected posters were given the authority to ban the trouble makers who think this place is their pulpit (whether conservative or liberal) once and for all.
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Jonathan Pitts said:
Is everyone welcome here?
Quite welcome, indeed. Especially you, David Paul, DAL, Denise, Lee, Mark Barnes, George Somsel, fgh, Milford Charles Murray, MJ, Lynden Williams, John, Josh, JoshinRI, Francis, Butters , Steve, Jerome Smith, Wild Eagle, David Ames, Jack Caviness, Todd Phillips, Divinesoteriology, DominicM and everyone else whose names I did not mention.
I enjoy hearing from both scholars and new students alike. I learn things from just about everyone who posts. I hope you will continue to post, Jonathan. I am certain you have much to share and I look forward to learning from you. I wish you well.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Dean053 said:
But you're not God David---I hope you take some years (preferably away from Logos forums) to let that sink in some.
The thread on the synoptic problem which he alludes to in the opening thread was not appropriate for Logos, with blatant off-topic banging of drums and pet theories coupled with a dogmatism which is inappropriate for this forum. The disrespect that permeates such posting is intolerable. I wish some respected posters were given the authority to ban the trouble makers who think this place is their pulpit (whether conservative or liberal) once and for all.
I would have to conclude your response is neither tolerant nor patient. I'm okay with that! [:D]
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Nope, I'm not one of those 'tolerant' liberals who are intolerant of anything that is exclusive in its claims (apart from their own). Nor am I a particularly patient person. But I know this place isn't my pulpit, and that I'm not the sole representative of the mind of God on earth, and that excessive dogmatism would be out of place on this forum and disrespectful to other users.
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Butters said:
Jonathan,
I would be glad to respond to your very thoughtful response; however, I am presently on my way out to a dinner. In the meantime, I would just like to ask you what you mean by the word "tolerance"? (and its iterations such as "intolerance" and "(in)tolerant") It's a word you seem very fond of using.
~Butters
Tolerance: The disposition or ability to accept without protest the opinions or acts of others.
Perhaps it was not tolerant of me to start this thread.
There are times when tolerance is appropriate and times when it is not.
It is very appropriate in a forum of bible software users with diverse opinions, especially where theological discussion is discouraged but hints of our theology will inevitably be discovered in our comments on other matters.
God has been very tolerant of me.
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Jonathan Pitts said:Butters said:
Jonathan,
I would be glad to respond to your very thoughtful response; however, I am presently on my way out to a dinner. In the meantime, I would just like to ask you what you mean by the word "tolerance"? (and its iterations such as "intolerance" and "(in)tolerant") It's a word you seem very fond of using.
~Butters
Tolerance: The disposition or ability to accept without protest the opinions or acts of others.
Perhaps it was not tolerant of me to start this thread.
There are times when tolerance it is appropriate and times when it is not.
It is very appropriate in a forum of bible software users with diverse opinions, especially where theological discussion is discouraged but hints of our theology will inevitably be discovered in our comments on other matters.
God has been very tolerant of me.
Your definition of tolerance does not describe YHWH by any possible stretch of the imagination. Not even close...like 100% opposite.
Per my above post, I cannot emphasize enough how important it is to comprehend that YHWH is not tolerant toward you or any human being.
He does, however, exercise tremendous patience toward us all. There are doctrines that I am aware of that could easily cloud the distinction between these two vastly different characteristics. Nothing can be done about that here, obviously. But those distinctions will eventually be made crystal clear...even if many only have a brief time to learn the lesson.
Patience is what YHWH extends toward you that allows your continued drawing of breath...not tolerance.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Jonathan Pitts said:
In the past couple of weeks, the tone of these forums seems to have changed. I no longer feel welcome.
Nearly every thread that I have subscribed to recently or made a small contribution to has degenerated into opinionated, closed minded drivel. This appears to have been mainly from an antischolarly fundamentalist or conservative point of view. Any other viewpoint is dismissed out of hand, usually without any reasoned argument.
I come to the forums for advice and news on Logos Bible Software. I expect a little discussion of Biblical issues around that, but not that I should have to conform to someone else's views or that my own views will be dismissed out of hand.
Logos is used by a hugely diverse group of people: Christians of all types, other groups related to Christianity, Jews, agnostics, others. A user's theological viewpoint should not affect their acceptance on these forums. With my own progressive, non-conservative viewpoints, I am starting to feel how perhaps the Catholic users have felt here in the past.
My very reason for using the software, is to take a scholarly approach to the Bible and other literature, allowing me to make my own judgements on spiritual matters. I need to be free to explore on my own terms.
Is everyone welcome here?
It's my understanding these forums aren't supposed to contain Theological debate, though it does happen, but yes, everyone is welcome.
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One of the major benefits of the Logos forum are fellow participants intimately familar with exactly what YHWH thinks, and indeed even how to correctly spell his name using Canaanite letters (Phoenesian) to approximate aramaic square characters encouraged by Persian satraps.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Jonathan Pitts said:
Tolerance: The disposition or ability to accept without protest the opinions or acts of others.
Okay, so as you seem to realize, on your own definition you yourself are being "intolerant" in this very thread.
Be that as it may, however, I would like to push you further on this definition; this may seem tedious but in the end I hope instructive.
What do you mean "accept without protest"? Do you mean to assent to what is being said inwardly? Or just outwardly? Or both? Or something else?
“To love means loving the unlovable. To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable. Faith means believing the unbelievable. Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton
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Peace, Jonatha! *smile* You are INDEED very welcome here, and I thank you for your various contributions to the Forums!Jonathan Pitts said:In the past couple of weeks, the tone of these forums seems to have changed. I no longer feel welcome.
Nearly every thread that I have subscribed to recently or made a small contribution to has degenerated into opinionated, closed minded drivel. This appears to have been mainly from an antischolarly fundamentalist or conservative point of view. Any other viewpoint is dismissed out of hand, usually without any reasoned argument.
I come to the forums for advice and news on Logos Bible Software. I expect a little discussion of Biblical issues around that, but not that I should have to conform to someone else's views or that my own views will be dismissed out of hand.
Logos is used by a hugely diverse group of people: Christians of all types, other groups related to Christianity, Jews, agnostics, others. A user's theological viewpoint should not affect their acceptance on these forums. With my own progressive, non-conservative viewpoints, I am starting to feel how perhaps the Catholic users have felt here in the past.
My very reason for using the software, is to take a scholarly approach to the Bible and other literature, allowing me to make my own judgements on spiritual matters. I need to be free to explore on my own terms.
Is everyone welcome here?
Some of the small-minded shenanigans that bother and offend you also bother and offend me! They are so unnecessary.
However the Logos Forums are very important, quite helpful to so many people, and mostly advance love and friendship in the larger Christian Church; and I would like to see them thrive and prosper!
Please stay with us and be as positive as you can -- also pointing out in a positive AND caring way way (which you have done,eh???) some of the problems and dangers!
God has said that for his People that -- quote:
God’s Indomitable Love in Christ.
28 *We know that all things work for good for those who love God,* who are called according to his purpose. Romans 8:28 NABRE
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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Butters said:Jonathan Pitts said:
Tolerance: The disposition or ability to accept without protest the opinions or acts of others.
Okay, so as you seem to realize, on your own definition you yourself are being "intolerant" in this very thread.
Be that as it may, however, I would like to push you further on this definition; this may seem tedious but in the end I hope instructive.
What do you mean "accept without protest"? Do you mean to assent to what is being said inwardly? Or just outwardly? Or both? Or something else?
1. I mean what the Shorter Oxford English Dictionary means.
2. I mean accept without protest, not assent.
3. I mean not feeling the need to correct others opinions or acts when they differ from our own.
4. I have a busy day and not too much time for debate.
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Jonathan Pitts said:
I mean not feeling the need to correct others opinions or acts when they differ from our own.
This isn't what tolerance means actually; but okay, you just want to believe what you want to believe. I shall leave you be.
In any case, it should be clear to you now that this entire thread - where you complain about alleged intolerance of others on this board - is actually an expression of your own intolerance, exactly as you define it.
Peace.
~Butters [:)]
“To love means loving the unlovable. To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable. Faith means believing the unbelievable. Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton
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Makes me wonder. If one studies the Scriptures, and reaches a unique viewpoint on something, but latter finds that he is in error and must yield to the orthodox opinion, why study at all in the first place?
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Paul Golder said:
Makes me wonder. If one studies the Scriptures, and reaches a unique viewpoint on something, but latter finds that he is in error and must yield to the orthodox opinion, why study at all in the first place?
Ah, Grasshopper, the pleasure is in the journey. [:D]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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The point of studying Scripture isn't to discern or "reach" a "unique viewpoint" (which invariably means merely rediscovering an old error), but to deepen one's relationship to God (to increase understanding, to have daily contact with revealed truth, to hear him speak to you personally, to explore his word, etc.) And, of course, new findings (archeological, linguistic, etc.) can illuminate the text in different ways.
~Butters [:)]
“To love means loving the unlovable. To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable. Faith means believing the unbelievable. Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton
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Jonathan Pitts said:
In the past couple of weeks, the tone of these forums seems to have changed. I no longer feel welcome.
I just read through this thread and want to come back to this point.
First, I try to avoid theological discussions on these forums. This group of people is too diverse to have consensus on even how to have a thoughtful conversation. This is evident in this thread as well.
Second, if you think the past couple of weeks have been bad, you haven't been around that long. There have been absolutely horrible, accusatory, malicious and downright nasty threads that Logos has decided to lock and in some cases delete altogether.
Third, I'm curious about your sense of feeling "welcome." What sort of comments have made you feel that the general population that inhabit these forums doesn't want you here, or would tend to support or even allow such a sentiment?
Jonathan Pitts said:Nearly every thread that I have subscribed to recently or made a small contribution to has degenerated into opinionated, closed minded drivel. This appears to have been mainly from an antischolarly fundamentalist or conservative point of view. Any other viewpoint is dismissed out of hand, usually without any reasoned argument.
Once again, this is nothing new. This is the internet. You've already been challenged for an over-generalization of fundamentalists, so I won't repeat that. But I would add that they should not get all the blame. There are plenty of rabidly conservative, anti-intellectual evangelicals, or reformed, or catholic, or pentecostal, or... who can be the same way. I've met them in person as well as in these forums and elsewhere. People with strong opinions can easily become suspicious of an authority, like 'scholarship' (a rather vague term, don't you agree?). History has proved them right sometimes, and wrong others. Sometimes the so-called, or self-appointed scholars have gotten things off track, and the uneducated have gotten things going right again. Scholarship is no more immune from the temptation to go beyond it's veneer of objectivity, than any other human social group. (IMHO, of course.) But I'm sure you understand that as well.
Jonathan Pitts said:I come to the forums for advice and news on Logos Bible Software. I expect a little discussion of Biblical issues around that, but not that I should have to conform to someone else's views or that my own views will be dismissed out of hand.
Agreed. No other comment is necessary. I wish everyone had this perspective. (Oops! I just made another comment.)
Jonathan Pitts said:Logos is used by a hugely diverse group of people: Christians of all types, other groups related to Christianity, Jews, agnostics, others. A user's theological viewpoint should not affect their acceptance on these forums. With my own progressive, non-conservative viewpoints, I am starting to feel how perhaps the Catholic users have felt here in the past.
There are those on these forums (and among my FaceBook friends) with whom I sharply disagree. Sometimes their words and comments (posted here or there) make me angry. Really. I agree that people can be quite hurtful, and sometimes intentionally so, as they disagree with positions they do not hold, or have rejected (whether in politics, or theology). Often these people quickly demonstrate that they are not able, or not willing to examine and intelligently defend their position. But offense given does not have to be offense taken. With such people (with whom further discussion would seem to be unproductive), I simply tolerate them; that is I smile, wish them well, and let it go. When I am cursed, I bless. It's really quite a freeing perspective: not to have to fix everything that's wrong with other people's arguments.
Jonathan Pitts said:My very reason for using the software, is to take a scholarly approach to the Bible and other literature, allowing me to make my own judgements on spiritual matters. I need to be free to explore on my own terms.
Of course, you are as free in this as you choose to be. Personally, I'm not looking for scholarly interaction on these forums. It's a challenge to even find intelligent discourse, at times, about theological matters. Most of us are not scholars. That much should be obvious. For scholarly interaction, one would need to find another forum, or better yet, a group of people with whom one could interact fact to face.
Jonathan Pitts said:Is everyone welcome here?
Actually, history has proven the answer to be a resounding "No." Those who are here to stir up trouble, continually mock, insult, or demean others, or other spiritual traditions, will be asked to leave. Ornery people, those who are merely impolite, and occasionally bad mannered, tend to be tolerated. Sometimes another forum member will challenge such behavior. With some, we have just learned to ignore them completely.
I can't speak for anyone but myself of course, but I've not seen anything in your posts that would suggest that you aren't welcome here by most of us, even if there are some who don't.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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George Somsel said:
Ah, Grasshopper, the pleasure is in the journey.
Butters said:The point of studying Scripture isn't to discern or "reach" a "unique viewpoint" (which invariably means merely rediscovering an old error), but to deepen one's relationship to God (to increase understanding, to have daily contact with revealed truth, to hear him speak to you personally, to explore his word, etc.) And, of course, new findings (archeological, linguistic, etc.) can illuminate the text in different ways.
~Butters
But if what you guys say is true, wouldn't the opinion of others (no matter how "close minded" or fundamental they may be), only lead to heightening the experience, and making the journey a well earned worthwhile one?
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Paul Golder said:George Somsel said:
Ah, Grasshopper, the pleasure is in the journey.
Butters said:The point of studying Scripture isn't to discern or "reach" a "unique viewpoint" (which invariably means merely rediscovering an old error), but to deepen one's relationship to God (to increase understanding, to have daily contact with revealed truth, to hear him speak to you personally, to explore his word, etc.) And, of course, new findings (archeological, linguistic, etc.) can illuminate the text in different ways.
~Butters
But if what you guys say is true, wouldn't the opinion of others (no matter how "close minded" or fundamental they may be), only lead to heightening the experience, and making the journey a well earned worthwhile one?
Yes, if offered in a manner respectful of other opinions.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Paul Golder said:George Somsel said:
Ah, Grasshopper, the pleasure is in the journey.
Butters said:The point of studying Scripture isn't to discern or "reach" a "unique viewpoint" (which invariably means merely rediscovering an old error), but to deepen one's relationship to God (to increase understanding, to have daily contact with revealed truth, to hear him speak to you personally, to explore his word, etc.) And, of course, new findings (archeological, linguistic, etc.) can illuminate the text in different ways.
~Butters
But if what you guys say is true, wouldn't the opinion of others (no matter how "close minded" or fundamental they may be), only lead to heightening the experience, and making the journey a well earned worthwhile one?
Well, I'm not exactly sure what you're asking - but let me take a guess and answer it this way: error isn't a bad thing inherently. Indeed, the proliferation of error has always been one of the most productive incitements to doctrinal truth.
Does that make sense? Or even begin to answer your question?
~Butters [:)]
“To love means loving the unlovable. To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable. Faith means believing the unbelievable. Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton
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Butters said:
The point of studying Scripture isn't to discern or "reach" a "unique viewpoint" (which invariably means merely rediscovering an old error), but to deepen one's relationship to God (to increase understanding, to have daily contact with revealed truth, to hear him speak to you personally, to explore his word, etc.) And, of course, new findings (archeological, linguistic, etc.) can illuminate the text in different ways.
~Butters
That might be your point, but this isn't church, and your dogmatic pronouncement about why one should or shouldn't be studying scripture belongs elsewhere (even if I might agree with it in principle). That's what people need to get--people will study the Bible for all kinds of reasons, and it should make no difference to their experience on the forums.
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Butters said:
Does that make sense? Or even begin to answer your question?
I see. Then one could even say that to seek tolerance in one's journey at the expense of the firm conviction of others, will most assuredly lead to areas where the truth will never be found.
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Dean053 said:Butters said:
The point of studying Scripture isn't to discern or "reach" a "unique viewpoint" (which invariably means merely rediscovering an old error), but to deepen one's relationship to God (to increase understanding, to have daily contact with revealed truth, to hear him speak to you personally, to explore his word, etc.) And, of course, new findings (archeological, linguistic, etc.) can illuminate the text in different ways.
~Butters
That might be your point, but this isn't church, and your dogmatic pronouncement about why one should or shouldn't be studying scripture belongs elsewhere (even if I might agree with it in principle). That's what people need to get--people will study the Bible for all kinds of reasons, and it should make no difference to their experience on the forums.
The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh away. It seems that what you grant with one hand you remove with the other. I really don't understand you.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Dean053 said:
That might be your point, but this isn't church, and your dogmatic pronouncement about why one should or shouldn't be studying scripture belongs elsewhere (even if I might agree with it in principle).
I was answering a question someone had asked me. Funny how you zero in on my post, lol.
Cheers,
~Butters [:)]
“To love means loving the unlovable. To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable. Faith means believing the unbelievable. Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton
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Paul Golder said:Butters said:
Does that make sense? Or even begin to answer your question?
I see. Then one could even say that to seek tolerance in one's journey at the expense of the firm conviction of others, will most assuredly lead to areas where the truth will never be found.
In the famous words of the Bible, "What is truth?" Actually, I'm not quite that cynical, but we all seem to think that WE know the truth.
And you know that I'm right. [;)] [:D]
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Paul Golder said:Butters said:
Does that make sense? Or even begin to answer your question?
I see. Then one could even say that to seek tolerance in one's journey at the expense of the firm conviction of others, will most assuredly lead to areas where the truth will never be found.
You're going to have to clarify that for me.
~Butters [:)]
“To love means loving the unlovable. To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable. Faith means believing the unbelievable. Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” ~Chesterton
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Butters said:
You're going to have to clarify that for me.
Let me put it this way: Suppose, just suppose that we are living in a day and age where tolerance and acceptance are desired and striven for above all. Would not the eventual denouement be the loss of that which is absolute?
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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