Sabbath NEAR Abraham

simple ... resources on this topic.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/526697#Comment_526697

now there is some work on sabbath on Logos

http://www.logos.com/products/search?q=sabbath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/526697#Comment_526697

do you wish to find the verb or the word for "sabbath"?

for if you are looking for the word I am scared that you will not find anything since the first time the word appears in Exodus 16:23

as for the verb it appears in Gen 2:2, 3; 8:22; see also Exod 5:5; 12:15

Most people entirely overlook the verb. Same word, same spelling (scroll-wise), same pronunciation (practically speaking)...at Creation.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/526709#Comment_526709

Thanks for your help. Logos does have some good resources on the Sabbath. A quick glance indicated that I have about 25 of those resources listed using "Sabbath" to search for products.

I did overlook the verb form and thanks to your inspiration, just invested the last half hour discovering all the neat stuff we uncover by searching:

logos4:Search;kind=Bible;q=$3CLemma_$3D_lbs$2Fhe$2F$D7$A9$D7$81$D7$91$D7$AA$3E;match=nostem

And...not sure how to copy a URL for a syntax search, but that is interesting too.

I am still curious about a "search" that will turn up productive hits in all my library resources, not just my Bibles, that deal with the notion of Sabbath keeping before Moses. It's not that big of a deal, but can always use better honed search skills.

Rosie Perera

I couldn't find much, which is perhaps why you are striking out. Maybe they didn't keep Sabbath before Moses. James Montgomery Boice in his Romans Commentary says, "there is no indication that Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, or any of the patriarchs observed or even knew about the Sabbath." James Montgomery Boice, Romans: The New Humanity, vol. 4 (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1991–), 1742.

Here's another author who presents a case for that view:

The first observance of a sabbath day mentioned in Holy Scripture is in Genesis 2:2–3, where we are told, “God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it; because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.”

Though it is not mentioned by name, here we see the first observance of a sabbath rest. The Lord God himself rested on the seventh day from all his work. That is what it is to keep the sabbath. It is to rest from all your work. Though he kept the sabbath, there was no other mention of it for 2,000 years. Adam never kept a sabbath day, either before or after the fall. Yet, he worshipped God and walked with him. Abel never observed a sabbath day; but he worshipped God. Enoch walked with God; but he never observed a sabbath day. Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord; but we never read of him observing the sabbath. Abraham was the friend of God; but he did not keep a ceremonial sabbath day of any kind.

Throughout the days of the patriarchs, (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob), though God was believed, worshipped, loved and honored by his people, not one of his people kept a sabbath day. Even Joseph, that great, eminent type of Christ, never once observed a sabbath day.

Were these men antinomians? Were they evil, licentious, wicked men? To even suggest such nonsense is offensive. These were men, all of them, who walked with God. They were holy, righteous, believing men. They did not keep a sabbath day, because God did not require them to do so. Yet, they worshipped God! My point is just this:—Sabbath observance is in no way essential to the worship of God.

Don Fortner, Basic Bible Doctrine (Danville, KY: Don Fortner, 2007), 488–489.

And there's this interesting bit from the Pulpit Commentary on Exodus:

V. IN HIS METHOD OF SUPPLY GOD MADE SPECIAL PROVISION FOR THE SABBATH. On the sixth day of the week, a double portion was provided, and was to be gathered in correspondence with the provision. Certainly it must be admitted that the regulation here gives no means of judging how far the Sabbath was a recognised institution in Israel, if indeed it was an institution at all. This is a matter on which we are not able to affirm; nor are we able to deny. To whatever extent there may have been a weekly Sabbath among the patriarchs, it could not have been kept up through the hardships of Egypt! Anyway, this remarkable increase of an extra omer on the sixth day—when the reason of it was explained—was the very thing to prepare the people for the exact commandment which so soon followed. Jehovah had thus more ways than one of impressing upon them the sanctity and peculiarity of the Sabbath. In Egypt they had doubtless been required to toil every day, knowing little rest, save the inevitable rest of sleep, and it would be hard to break them away from this expectation of daily drudgery. Early association and training are wanted to make one day different from others; and we may conclude that it was only the generation growing up in the wilderness and becoming habituated to the Sabbath rest that really took to it in a natural and easy way. But this regulation of the manna must have been a great help even to the elder generation. As each sixth day came round they were reminded that God himself was remembering the Sabbath day to keep it holy, and therefore they should do the same.

H. D. M. Spence-Jones, ed., Exodus, vol. 2, The Pulpit Commentary (London; New York: Funk & Wagnalls Company, 1909), 57.

And in Charles Hodge's Systematic Theology:

Grotius did not believe in the perpetuity of the Sabbath, yet he admits that in Genesis 2:3, it is said that the seventh day was set apart as holy from the creation. He assumes, on the authority, as he says, of many learned Hebrews, that there were two precepts concerning the Sabbath. The one given at the beginning enjoined that every seventh day should be remembered as a memorial of the creation. And in this sense, he says, the Sabbath was doubtless observed by the patriarchs, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc. The second precept was given from Mount Sinai when the Sabbath was made a memorial of the deliverance of the Israelites from Egyptian bondage. This latter law enjoined rest from labour on the Sabbath. The Scriptural argument which he urges in support of this theory, is, that in all the accounts of the journeyings of the patriarchs, we never read of their resting on the seventh day; whereas after the law given from Mount Sinai, this reference to the resting of the people on the Sabbath is of constant occurrence.

Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology, vol. 3 (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), 326.

One more:

From Adam to Moses.—There is no scripture to show that the rest day was observed from Adam to Moses. It is the testimony of the early church fathers that the patriarchs had no sabbath. (See Eccl. Hist. of Eusebius, Book I, Ch. 4.) However, whether God’s people of the patriarchal age kept a rest day, or how they kept it, does not determine Christian duty. God in the various dispensations has given commandments in accordance with the times and conditions under which the people lived. The laws of God as given in one dispensation need not necessarily be God’s will for another. (See Christ’s instructions in the Sermon on the Mount.—Matt. 5:21–48.) The first reference to the rest day, after Genesis, is found in Ex. 16:23, a little while before the giving of the law upon Mt. Sinai.

Geo. R. Brunk, “The Lord’s Day,” in Bible Doctrine: A Treatise on the Great Doctrines of the Bible, Pertaining to God, Angels, Satan, the Church, and the Salvation, Duties and Destiny of Man, ed. Daniel Kauffman (Scottdale, PA: Mennonite Publishing House, 1914), 130.

And here is the paragraph from Eusebius to which Brunk refers (my boldface):

That the nation of the Hebrews is not new, but honoured among all for its antiquity, is well known. The writings and literature of this nation concern ancient men, rare and few in number, but yet excelling in piety, righteousness, and every virtue. And, indeed, even before the flood, there were some who were distinguished for their virtue; and after this others, both of the sons and posterity of Noah, among whom we would mention Abraham, celebrated by the Hebrews as the founder and progenitor of their nation. Should any one, beginning from Abraham, and going back to the first man, pronounce those who have had the testimony of righteousness, Christians in fact, though not in name, he would not be far from the truth. For as the name Christians is intended to indicate this very idea, that a man, by the knowledge and doctrine of Christ, is distinguished by modesty and justice, by patience and a virtuous fortitude, and by a profession of piety towards the one and only true and supreme God; all this was no less studiously cultivated by them than by us. They did not, therefore, regard circumcision, nor observe the Sabbath, nor do we; neither do we abstain from certain foods, nor regard other injunctions, which Moses subsequently delivered to be observed in types and symbols, because such things as these do not belong to Christians. But they obviously knew the Christ of God, as he appeared to Abraham, communed with Isaac, spoke to Jacob; and that he communed with Moses and the prophets after him, has already been shown.

Eusebius of Caesarea, An Ecclesiastical History to the 20th Year of the Reign of Constantine, trans. Parker S.E. (London: Samuel Bagster and Sons, 1847), 46–47.

From the entry for Sunday in A Catholic Dictionary:

Something must be said on three points connected with the Jewish Sabbath which are of theological importance.
(1) There is no trace of its being observed among the Hebrews before the time of Moses. No doubt, in Genesis 2:3, we read that “God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it,” but it is never said that He told men in the pre-Mosaic period to do so likewise, and evidently the sacred writers knew nothing of a Sabbath kept by the Patriarchs. It is implied that the division of days into weeks, unknown among the Romans till the Empire, was very ancient among some of the Semitic people, for Laban (Gen. 29:27) speaks of the “week of this woman”—i.e. the week of marriage festivities. We now know that among the Assyrians the first twenty-eight days of every month were divided into four weeks of seven days each, the seventh, fourteenth, twenty-first, and twenty-eighth days being Sabbaths; and there was a general prohibition of work on these days (G. Smith, “Assyrian Eponym Canon,” p. 19, seq.) The date of this usage among the Assyrians is still uncertain (Dillman on Exod. p. 214). But we may conjecture that the division was based, not on the seven planets, but on the phases of the moon, and was familiar within and without Israel before Moses. But from this it does not follow that there was any divine command to keep the Sabbath, or even that the Israelites rested on it. Indeed, the day of rest implies a settled and agricultural life; to a people of shepherds a Sabbath is not necessary or even possible. (So Wellhausen, “Geschichte des Volkes Israel,” ch. iii.)

William E. Addis and Thomas Arnold, A Catholic Dictionary (New York: The Catholic Publication Society Co., 1887), 780.

I was able to find one dissenting voice in Calvin. Richard B. Gaffin, in Calvin and the Sabbath, writes:

Finally, in commenting upon the phrase, “For in six days the Lord made,” Calvin conjectures that hallowing the Sabbath probably existed before the giving of the Law at Sinai. That is so, he believes, because the prohibition of manna-gathering in Exodus 16 seems to reflect that the Sabbath was a well-known custom. He also considers it “not credible”17 that the Lord in revealing the rite of sacrifice to the Patriarchs did not also institute the weekly Sabbath.

Richard B. Gaffin Jr., Calvin and the Sabbath (Fearn, Ross-shire, UK: Christian Focus Publications, 1998), 85–86.

I could look further down in my search results, but that's all the time I have right now. But you could try this search I did and see what else you can turn up in your library:

sabbath NEAR patriarchs

Lynden O. Williams

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/526787#Comment_526787

Gao, Logos has just released some resources on the Sabbath http://www.logos.com/product/31464/andrews-university-press-sabbath-studies-collection that you may be interested in. Also a search of their website using the word Sabbath shows this: http://www.logos.com/products/search?q=sabbath

Other than that use your Bible dictionaries AYBD, has a good article on the Sabbath from Creation onwards. The reading list on the subject (which has not been updated for some time) has links to many resources in Logos. http://topics.logos.com/7th_day_Sabbath

Disclaimer: I am a Seventh-day Adventist. [:)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/526794#Comment_526794

Thank you Rosie and Lynden for your guidance. I appreciate your time and help.

"sabbath NEAR patriarchs" narrows it down to to some useful resources including Boice and others. AYBD is also a good choice.

The reading list was a great idea too.

Thanks.

Jacob Hantla

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/526791#Comment_526791

Maybe they didn't keep Sabbath before Moses.

[:P] Probably why we aren't finding much.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/526864#Comment_526864

I am not Sabbatarian, and didn't expect many Biblical hits, but according to Google--21,300,000 hits--some thought has apparently been given to this matter. I suspect there is more in my library than I have found.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/526791#Comment_526791

I couldn't find much, which is perhaps why you are striking out. Maybe they didn't keep Sabbath before Moses. James Montgomery Boice in his Romans Commentary says, "there is no indication that Adam and Eve, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, or any of the patriarchs observed or even knew about the Sabbath." James Montgomery Boice, Romans: The New Humanity, vol. 4 (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House, 1991–), 1742.

Here's another author who presents a case for that view:

The first observance of a sabbath day mentioned in Holy Scripture is in Genesis 2:2–3, where we are told, “God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all work which he had made. And God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it; because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.”

Though it is not mentioned by name, here we see the first observance of a sabbath rest. The Lord God himself rested on the seventh day from all his work. That is what it is to keep the sabbath. It is to rest from all your work. Though he kept the sabbath, there was no other mention of it for 2,000 years. Adam never kept a sabbath day, either before or after the fall. Yet, he worshipped God and walked with him. Abel never observed a sabbath day; but he worshipped God. Enoch walked with God; but he never observed a sabbath day. Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord; but we never read of him observing the sabbath. Abraham was the friend of God; but he did not keep a ceremonial sabbath day of any kind.

Throughout the days of the patriarchs, (Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob), though God was believed, worshipped, loved and honored by his people, not one of his people kept a sabbath day. Even Joseph, that great, eminent type of Christ, never once observed a sabbath day.

Were these men antinomians? Were they evil, licentious, wicked men? To even suggest such nonsense is offensive. These were men, all of them, who walked with God. They were holy, righteous, believing men. They did not keep a sabbath day, because God did not require them to do so. Yet, they worshipped God! My point is just this:—Sabbath observance is in no way essential to the worship of God.

Don Fortner, Basic Bible Doctrine (Danville, KY: Don Fortner, 2007), 488–489.

And there's this interesting bit from the Pulpit Commentary on Exodus:

V. IN HIS METHOD OF SUPPLY GOD MADE SPECIAL PROVISION FOR THE SABBATH. On the sixth day of the week, a double portion was provided, and was to be gathered in correspondence with the provision. Certainly it must be admitted that the regulation here gives no means of judging how far the Sabbath was a recognised institution in Israel, if indeed it was an institution at all. This is a matter on which we are not able to affirm; nor are we able to deny. To whatever extent there may have been a weekly Sabbath among the patriarchs, it could not have been kept up through the hardships of Egypt! Anyway, this remarkable increase of an extra omer on the sixth day—when the reason of it was explained—was the very thing to prepare the people for the exact commandment which so soon followed. Jehovah had thus more ways than one of impressing upon them the sanctity and peculiarity of the Sabbath. In Egypt they had doubtless been required to toil every day, knowing little rest, save the inevitable rest of sleep, and it would be hard to break them away from this expectation of daily drudgery. Early association and training are wanted to make one day different from others; and we may conclude that it was only the generation growing up in the wilderness and becoming habituated to the Sabbath rest that really took to it in a natural and easy way. But this regulation of the manna must have been a great help even to the elder generation. As each sixth day came round they were reminded that God himself was remembering the Sabbath day to keep it holy, and therefore they should do the same.

H. D. M. Spence-Jones, ed., Exodus, vol. 2, The Pulpit Commentary (London; New York: Funk & Wagnalls Company, 1909), 57.

And in Charles Hodge's Systematic Theology:

Grotius did not believe in the perpetuity of the Sabbath, yet he admits that in Genesis 2:3, it is said that the seventh day was set apart as holy from the creation. He assumes, on the authority, as he says, of many learned Hebrews, that there were two precepts concerning the Sabbath. The one given at the beginning enjoined that every seventh day should be remembered as a memorial of the creation. And in this sense, he says, the Sabbath was doubtless observed by the patriarchs, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, etc. The second precept was given from Mount Sinai when the Sabbath was made a memorial of the deliverance of the Israelites from Egyptian bondage. This latter law enjoined rest from labour on the Sabbath. The Scriptural argument which he urges in support of this theory, is, that in all the accounts of the journeyings of the patriarchs, we never read of their resting on the seventh day; whereas after the law given from Mount Sinai, this reference to the resting of the people on the Sabbath is of constant occurrence.

Charles Hodge, Systematic Theology, vol. 3 (Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 1997), 326.

One more:

From Adam to Moses.—There is no scripture to show that the rest day was observed from Adam to Moses. It is the testimony of the early church fathers that the patriarchs had no sabbath. (See Eccl. Hist. of Eusebius, Book I, Ch. 4.) However, whether God’s people of the patriarchal age kept a rest day, or how they kept it, does not determine Christian duty. God in the various dispensations has given commandments in accordance with the times and conditions under which the people lived. The laws of God as given in one dispensation need not necessarily be God’s will for another. (See Christ’s instructions in the Sermon on the Mount.—Matt. 5:21–48.) The first reference to the rest day, after Genesis, is found in Ex. 16:23, a little while before the giving of the law upon Mt. Sinai.

Geo. R. Brunk, “The Lord’s Day,” in Bible Doctrine: A Treatise on the Great Doctrines of the Bible, Pertaining to God, Angels, Satan, the Church, and the Salvation, Duties and Destiny of Man, ed. Daniel Kauffman (Scottdale, PA: Mennonite Publishing House, 1914), 130.

And here is the paragraph from Eusebius to which Brunk refers (my boldface):

That the nation of the Hebrews is not new, but honoured among all for its antiquity, is well known. The writings and literature of this nation concern ancient men, rare and few in number, but yet excelling in piety, righteousness, and every virtue. And, indeed, even before the flood, there were some who were distinguished for their virtue; and after this others, both of the sons and posterity of Noah, among whom we would mention Abraham, celebrated by the Hebrews as the founder and progenitor of their nation. Should any one, beginning from Abraham, and going back to the first man, pronounce those who have had the testimony of righteousness, Christians in fact, though not in name, he would not be far from the truth. For as the name Christians is intended to indicate this very idea, that a man, by the knowledge and doctrine of Christ, is distinguished by modesty and justice, by patience and a virtuous fortitude, and by a profession of piety towards the one and only true and supreme God; all this was no less studiously cultivated by them than by us. They did not, therefore, regard circumcision, nor observe the Sabbath, nor do we; neither do we abstain from certain foods, nor regard other injunctions, which Moses subsequently delivered to be observed in types and symbols, because such things as these do not belong to Christians. But they obviously knew the Christ of God, as he appeared to Abraham, communed with Isaac, spoke to Jacob; and that he communed with Moses and the prophets after him, has already been shown.

Eusebius of Caesarea, An Ecclesiastical History to the 20th Year of the Reign of Constantine, trans. Parker S.E. (London: Samuel Bagster and Sons, 1847), 46–47.

From the entry for Sunday in A Catholic Dictionary:

Something must be said on three points connected with the Jewish Sabbath which are of theological importance.
(1) There is no trace of its being observed among the Hebrews before the time of Moses. No doubt, in Genesis 2:3, we read that “God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it,” but it is never said that He told men in the pre-Mosaic period to do so likewise, and evidently the sacred writers knew nothing of a Sabbath kept by the Patriarchs. It is implied that the division of days into weeks, unknown among the Romans till the Empire, was very ancient among some of the Semitic people, for Laban (Gen. 29:27) speaks of the “week of this woman”—i.e. the week of marriage festivities. We now know that among the Assyrians the first twenty-eight days of every month were divided into four weeks of seven days each, the seventh, fourteenth, twenty-first, and twenty-eighth days being Sabbaths; and there was a general prohibition of work on these days (G. Smith, “Assyrian Eponym Canon,” p. 19, seq.) The date of this usage among the Assyrians is still uncertain (Dillman on Exod. p. 214). But we may conjecture that the division was based, not on the seven planets, but on the phases of the moon, and was familiar within and without Israel before Moses. But from this it does not follow that there was any divine command to keep the Sabbath, or even that the Israelites rested on it. Indeed, the day of rest implies a settled and agricultural life; to a people of shepherds a Sabbath is not necessary or even possible. (So Wellhausen, “Geschichte des Volkes Israel,” ch. iii.)

William E. Addis and Thomas Arnold, A Catholic Dictionary (New York: The Catholic Publication Society Co., 1887), 780.

I was able to find one dissenting voice in Calvin. Richard B. Gaffin, in Calvin and the Sabbath, writes:

Finally, in commenting upon the phrase, “For in six days the Lord made,” Calvin conjectures that hallowing the Sabbath probably existed before the giving of the Law at Sinai. That is so, he believes, because the prohibition of manna-gathering in Exodus 16 seems to reflect that the Sabbath was a well-known custom. He also considers it “not credible”17 that the Lord in revealing the rite of sacrifice to the Patriarchs did not also institute the weekly Sabbath.

Richard B. Gaffin Jr., Calvin and the Sabbath (Fearn, Ross-shire, UK: Christian Focus Publications, 1998), 85–86.

I could look further down in my search results, but that's all the time I have right now. But you could try this search I did and see what else you can turn up in your library:

sabbath NEAR patriarchs

I have a hard time watching this scholarly gem...it is too painful. For the same reason, I have a hard time reading the above quotes. The same question keeps coming to mind...

How Is It Possible To Fail So Badly?

Jn. 21:25 is a pretty clear statement of the obvious...and yet the obvious obviously isn't clear enough for many folks, such as the scholars above. The fact that something isn't in the Bible doesn't mean it didn't exist (a logical fallacy that is known as "the argument from silence"), it just means it isn't mentioned overtly in the Bible. Granted, an explicit command isn't found there regarding keeping the Sabbath in Genesis, but that doesn't mean that there's nothing there at all. There's actually quite a bit.

Gen. 26:5 is an explicit example of that "quite a bit". The scholars above revel in pointing out there is no explicit command nor any example of patriarchal observance of the Sabbath, but YHWH's remarks to Isaac show that where Abraham was concerned, there was a whooooooooooole lot of "keeping" being kept for him to be keeping nothing at all. He kept "commandments, statutes, and laws" (literally "tohraah"), and did this all as a "charge" which essentially means as a watch-guard.

QUESTION: When did YHWH give all these commandments, statutes, and laws...all this tohraah...to Abraham? What's God's glitch? Doesn't He know that the Bible "says" nothing about such things? But didn't we just see that it does? But what were those "commandments, statutes, and laws", specifically? We can't say because the Bible doesn't say, but even so WE OBVIOUSLY CAN'T SAY THAT NO SUCH COMMANDMENTS WERE GIVEN BECAUSE YHWH HIMSELF SAYS OTHERWISE.

Of course, there is more scholarly failure to identify. If we repeat their monotonous assertion that "there is no command in the narrative of Genesis so we can and must conclude it was never spoken", we quickly find ourselves backed up into a dubious corner.

Again, what's God's glitch? Hasn't anyone told Him how this all works? Hasn't He been informed what the scholarly rules are? What's this nonsense about sin in Gen. 4:7? What sin? Cain can't sin! He doesn't live in Eden and can't get back in--there's a cherub and flaming sword to make sure of that. The only command previously given was not to eat of the tree. There's nothing else to worry about and nothing to sweat. Abel's head got in the way of a heavy object? Oh well...life's tough. No big deal. Right?

No? NO??? What do you mean, "No"?!?! Wait a minute! You can't curse (Gen. 4:11) Cain for killing Abel! THERE'S NO LAW--NO COMMAND--SAYING THERE IS ANYTHING WRONG WITH IT!! Does YHWH need Paul to come and explain to Him that "sin in not imputed when there is no law"? Rom. 5:13 How can someone be cursed for guilt when there is NOTHING to be guilty of?? There can be no transgression because there is no law to transgress. Isn't it OBVIOUS that Cain is being shafted unjustly?!?!?

Umm...are you not feeling comfortable with this scenario? I can see why. But the logic is irrefutable. Cain is guilty of nothing because there is nothing for him to be guilty of...

...unless...

...unless YHWH had a good, long session of "laying down the law" with Adam and company, a session which included the "no killing" clause. But the scholars say that is IMPOSSIBLE because it was not explicitly depicted in the Bible. Hmmm...quite a dilemma, is it not?

Not so much...no. It is evident...as in a conclusion can RIGHTLY be drawn...that the "no killing rule" was emphatically established, whether it was explicitly depicted or not. That conclusion is REQUIRED by the context. Otherwise, YHWH is convicting people who have no guilt.

Guess what? Guess what we just established...nay, proved: COMMANDS NOT DEPICTED AS HAVING BEEN GIVEN IN THE BIBLE HAD TO HAVE BEEN GIVEN...otherwise 'Elohhiym is unjust.

This established fact succinctly explains Gen. 26:5.

So, when were these commands given? Again, one can't point to a clear and explicit enunciation...per se. However, there IS a highly plausible and credible possibility. Remember this? Gen. 3:22 Adam and Eve, having eaten of the fruit, came to know evil and GOOD. What does it mean to "know good"? It has to mean what is good in YHWH's sight, specifically what He considers good as far as we are concerned. What might that be? Deut. 6:24, 25 Deut. 10:12, 13 And does that have implications for the Sabbath? Psa. 92:1 (Psalm 92 is written for the Sabbath) Mt. 12:12

Frankly, I could go on and on and on. The point is made. The things YHWH said He had given Abraham--commandments, statutes, and laws--are the exact same things YHWH gave Moses "for our good". This has to be the same "good" that Adam came to know when he ate the fruit. The Sabbath was made for man, not for YHWH, (Mk. 2:27) and shaabbatth was made on the seventh day, the day after man was made. Also, remember that Yeishuu`a was baptized even though He had no need for John's repentance. The purpose was to establish an example for us because He is our example in all things. Such was also true of the Sabbath...YHWH needed no rest, but man did. And he still does, which is why there still remains a Sabbath rest for God's people. Heb. 4:9

Oh, and the whole scope of prophecy is fundamentally arranged around the Sabbath, from Gen. 1:1 to Rev. 22.

Speaking of prophecy, it also provides the answer to that original question--how is it possible to fail so badly? 2 Thes. 2:11

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/526887#Comment_526887

For the same reason, I have a hard time reading the above quotes.

Then don't read them.

How Is It Possible To Fail So Badly?

David, I don't say "you failed" when you attempt to provide information to help other people learn how to do their own research and draw their own informed conclusions. Please do not jump on me for doing my bit.

You think you are the only one on these forums with the right answers, and it gets really tedious hearing that refrain over and over again. I wasn't saying I agreed with the quotes I found; I just showed Gao Lu how to do a more targeted search (what these forums are all about -- helping people learn how to use Logos better) and copied and pasted the first few relevant quotes that came up in my library when I did that search, in case he doesn't have as large a library as I do.

I think you have a lot of interesting things to say that are worth investigating. Please say them in a fashion that isn't shouting us down (exclamation points and capital letters) and don't ramble on and on. It makes it hard to read what you write. And give others the same courtesy of assuming there might be something worth investigating in what they post. It is not helpful to your cause if you ridicule us (or the authors we find quotes from in our libraries) by likening us to Miss South Carolina.

You could have made the gist of your argument more succinctly and persuasively if you'd edited it down to, "The absence of a recorded command to keep Sabbath does not prove that God never gave it to anyone prior to Moses. For example, God judged Cain for murder, so he must have commanded the first family not to murder, but we don't have that command recorded." Period. Point made. Nobody up in arms about it. Thank you very much.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/526895#Comment_526895

Rosie, I don't think for a second that you personally believe all the things in the excerpts you posted--they're just excerpts. I realize that. I am sorry if you feel that I am directing my comments toward you personally. I tried to make it clear that I was perturbed by the excerpts themselves, and yes, the authors of them. From a typical Christian perspective, its just their opinion and, hey, we all have them. My perspective is different, and sees things such as this as literally dangerous and life threatening. From my perspective, these "well-educated men" who so consistently overlook things in plain sight (to put it nicely) are pied pipers leading people astray. If there was anything in Logos that I could post or link to, I would just do that, but there isn't. I'm sorry for bothering you, but if you understood where I was coming from perspective-wise, I hope you'd understand my approach a little better.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/526895#Comment_526895

Outside Logos, you can read

-. Jo Ann Davidson “The Decalogue Predates Mount Sinai: Indicators from the Book of Genesis.” Journal of the Adventist Theological Society, vol. 19, nos. 1 & 2 (2008): 61-81.

-. Mathilde Frey, The Sabbath in the Pentateuch: An Exegetical and Theological Study (PhD Dissertation), Andrews University Seventh-day Adventist Theological Seminary

indirectly directed to the subject:

-. John Paul II, Apostolic Letter: Dies Domini

-. Frederic Godet, le Dimanche (first twenty pages)

Since the Bible is silent about it, I believe that is why people did not really comment or study on and/or about it

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/526904#Comment_526904

Since the Bible is silent about it, I believe that is why people did not really comment or study on and/or about it

Well, only "explicitly" silent. Many implications give a view that isn't "the usual fare".

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/526903#Comment_526903

Rosie, I don't think for a second that you personally believe all the things in the excerpts you posted--they're just excerpts. I realize that. I am sorry if you feel that I am directing my comments toward you personally. I tried to make it clear that I was perturbed by the excerpts themselves, and yes, the authors of them. From a typical Christian perspective, its just their opinion and, hey, we all have them. My perspective is different, and sees things such as this as literally dangerous and life threatening. From my perspective, these "well-educated men" who so consistently overlook things in plain sight (to put it nicely) are pied pipers leading people astray. If there was anything in Logos that I could post or link to, I would just do that, but there isn't. I'm sorry for bothering you, but if you understood where I was coming from perspective-wise, I hope you'd understand my approach a little better.

OK, thank you. Apology accepted. I had thought you were perturbed at me that I had chosen those particular examples.

I know that you have a quite different perspective than most Christians and that you don't agree with pretty much anything published in Logos format (except the Bible). I'm surprised that you literally find it all life threatening. I think that's a bit extreme, even if it's all wrong. In any event, the way you react to it with such intense animosity makes people unlikely to want to look into your very different way of thinking. You are not at all persuasive in your ways.

I appreciate how much you were able to tone down your response from the initial conflagration that came back at me. Hopefully we can keep our dialog more at this level in the future. Otherwise the virtual noise of it drowns out anyone's ability to think clearly. Blessings.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/526905#Comment_526905

Well, only "explicitly" silent. Many implications give a view that isn't "the usual fare".

I am not sure what you mean:

But according to what I understand you meant that they were not used to do so.

If i understood you well then how would you explain the "remember" in Exodus 20? was it not related to "a usual fare" that they may have forgotten?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/526916#Comment_526916

Sorry for being so cryptic. I think you and I do agree that the patriarchs kept the Sabbath. By "usual fare" I was referring to the common Christian explanation that is usually given that says they didn't keep it because there is no explicit statement saying they did. While I do think "remember the Sabbath" is a possible, even probable, indication of previous existence, in Hebrew zaakhar (remember) isn't exactly the same as "remember" in English. When YHWH says "I will remember my people", that doesn't mean He forgot them or was in danger of forgetting them, although they sometimes felt like He did. It means that He is going to "act on their behalf". The "acting" is key to remembering; it isn't a static, internal process of the mind or heart. In English we have a saying, "to put something on the front burner" which refers to cooking on a stove top. That is kind of what zaakhar means, and it is conceptually related to the "charge" that YWHW gave to Abraham. That word is mishmeretth, which comes from shamaar, which means to guard & keep.

Consider an armed sentry. He is shamaar-ing (guarding) as part of his mishmeretth (active duty to protect). When he is called upon to bring his weapon to the ready, he is zaakhar-ing (remembering, i.e. acting on behalf of) his mishmeretth.

I think Israel clearly lost touch with the Sabbath while in Egyptian servitude, so yes, when YHWH reinstitutes it in Exo. 16 (which occurs, obviously, before Exo. 20), I think that was a reacquaintance, which is precisely why it was done prior to the giving of the commandments. The meaning is "recall to mind", yes, but much more "keep this on the front burner" and "keep this charge" (shamaar this mishmeretth), or guard this as if your life depends on it. It does. Deut. 32: 46, 47

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/526978#Comment_526978

Back to the original question, you need to search on the code word (at the time) 'rest'. This opens up the 2nd Temple period. Also, if you have the Targums.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/526980#Comment_526980

Back to the original question...

The original question is moot...there is no NEAR for Sabbath and Abraham. Edwin's first response about the verb form which he seems to have removed, sufficiently made that point which is why I didn't bother. Once this moved beyond that, I simply tried to make the point that Sabbath NEAR Abraham isn't the end of the story.

I'm not sure what "the original question" would be at this point, besides what has been addressed.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/526985#Comment_526985

Back to the original question...

Edwin's first response about the verb form which he seems to have removed

Sorry I removed it. I felt a bit awkward since he was not looking for some bible references but rather some resources about it

But you had time to comment about. Now I feel confused since it seems it was still useful

Well, the first impression remains most of the time the best

Sorry for any inconvenience

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/526985#Comment_526985

Sorry my replies are so slow. When I click "quick reply" it takes all day for the message to be approved and post. One post apparently never was approved...although it was a bit of a repeat. So owell.

Anyway...thanks for all your help, though I admit finding the help among everything else took some wading through alligator infested water.

My REAL intended ORIGINAL question was how to prepare create a search to find resources that discussed the notion of Sabbath keeping before Moses. Discussing the validity of the argument or entering a theological debate was not the intent--how to create an effective SEARCH was my real question.

I suppose the patriarchs were indeed NEAR a Sabbath rest, although none had entered in during Bible events. I suppose they all have by now. Brothers and Sisters, you and I are NEAR Sabbath as well. Don't miss it! Heb 4:1-12 And we soon may enter into that rest! Imagine!

May God bless each of you with His Presence and Peace.

PS. I wonder how many hours till this will get posted--if it does?