Does it EVER end at Logos?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529219#Comment_529219

WHEN does it stop with Logos? Seriously? I KNOW logos is not in this for the Word of God. They've already made it clear on many many many occasions. They're here as a business to make money. Well, I've just about had it. When Logos decides to stop supporting L5, and it no longer works on whatever device I'm using, I think that is when I will stop supporting Logos, and it's greed.

I keep TRYING to accept how things work here; but, I can't. It's too much. I pray to God I am being overly judgmental on this company, because then it is on me; not those here. But, I keep seeing Logos and Peter speaking to Simon, and him saying, "Your money perish with you".

I'm sorry, but, it's how I feel, and despite the conversations, I do not see it getting better. There needs to be a change in attitude. Maybe in me; but, as I see it, in a company that seems to be more about the money, than handling God's affairs in a manner in which he would approve.

Logos is not the only Bible software company to offer numerous ads in the software… If that is truly what is offending you you might go to Accordance when it releases it's Windows software next month. Logos and all of these companies exist to make profit. Logos is not the cheapest but most people myself included find it a decent product that is not too overly priced. Logos can be customized in the home screen to show no ads at all, I also believe you can set your email pretences to the same. I have recently added to mine so as to qualify for getting the birthday coupon. Simon was trying to buy the Holy Spirit from Peter, in effect buy his way into the Church, Logos is not trying to sell you God or the Holy Spirit let alone but it from believers. So you take the verse far out of context, not to say one must be out for the sin of avarice. I am not saying I think Logos is guilty of this. One thing I will say Bob would likely be far far richer with far fewer headaches had he stayed at Microsoft and took all his stock options. But that being said his passion for the Word of God, lead him to found Logos. I would bet he would be most happy if it could be possible to give Logos away, new works are expensive to get into Logos, and while I do not know the pay scale at Logos I would hope the pay is well above minimum wage so these hard working programers and inputing personal can make a decent living. More more more… bigger better newer, are the cries of our culture. And I am surely not much better. But it is in our hearts we much say "It is enough" You may fault Logos for offering you more but you do not need to buy it. And Logos can be upgraded freely at anytime. Any User of 2 or 3 or 4 can download the 5 engine. Yes some of the data sets will be missing that have been added in to 5 (or 4 and 5 if you are coming from 3). But you are at no disadvantage to your current position to take the free upgrade path.

Please feel free to turn off the home page unsubscribe to all emails, then you will have what you want. And unless things changes drastically at Logos in a year or so when 6.0 comes out you will be able to download the free engine but you will not get the "talking puppets" or whatever bells as whistles are reserved for the people who have chosen to purchase an upgrade. Believe me I understand fully your concerns but I am not at sure at all greed is a sin that Logos is guilty of. I do think marketing can and does over do it at times but they want to let you know of all new products that are out there.

Oh that all Christians could take to heart the words of the Psalmist--“Whom have I in heaven but you? And there is nothing on earth that I desire other than you.” (Psalms 73:25 NRSV)

-Dan

Dave Hooton

Somehow, I misunderstood this whole upgrade bundle. Again, I admit, that's my problem. To a certain degree. I started to do either a minimum cross-grade or a starter upgrade. Decided to do a Starter upgrade. Then I decided what the heck!? Upgraded to Bronze. Feeling satisfied that I had an almost reasonable upgrade, I discover the error of my ways. Logos has set "Datasets" for Minimal Crossgrades and Silver and above bundles, only.

With Logos 5, Logos has created a minefield of possibilities in trying to appeal to existing users with no libraries (base packages) or with libraries from Logos 4 or Libronix. And they broke the continuity of package names and product levels that had existed for nearly a decade.

The Upgrade / Crossgrade site pages provide a list of features and datasets that is confusing, misleading and inconsistent i.e. the marketing was poor!

I had a job understanding it all and put together a wiki that (hopefully) clarified some aspects of the process (although subsequent feedback lead to some changes, including my own purchase of a crossgrade!).

The logos.com pages haven't been corrected in a significant way but some of us have been urging Logos to clarify the material and the approach taken. Hopefully, we'll see changes for this coming Christmas period.

It is completely justified to be frustrated over excessive adds popping up, however all you have to do is go in your settings in click on what you want and don't want to see. Problem solved...

Mark Barnes

Hi Batman,

What do you think Logos should have done differently that would have meant you didn't misunderstand the upgrade situation?

Mark

PS - Whilst Logos has made it clear that they're a business, not a ministry, I'm confident that they're not motivated by money as an end to itself. Most of the employees, and certainly the senior staff, seem to be motivated by helping as many people as possible to study the Bible. Income is a means to that end, not the end itself.

Joseph Turner

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529225#Comment_529225

I'm not faulting Logos. I'm only making a suggestion. They already suggest extra book packages at discounts when one upgrades to a package, so it would make sense to offer data sets along with those special upgrade deals. That might help some of this. They may already do this; I don't know.

DAL

Since when did batman become a logos user? What software does Robin use?

LOL, I'm sorry, I just had to throw that one out there...just trying to relieve the tension in the air. Here's a riddle for you guys: What did batman tell Robin before they got in the car?....

Batman said, "Robin, get in the car..."

Anyway, about upgrading I wouldn't mind upgrading back to platinum if I had the money but unfortunately at this time I have to settle for bronze and the minimal crossgrade so I can have all the features and databases ,other than that I'm content with what I have hopefully when my situation gets better I will be able to buy what I want but so far so good you guys have a blessed day and sorry about the jokes but you know that was funny -- preacher's jokes I call them sometimes not really funny. Alright have a good one!

DAL

ps. I literally hate my samsung galaxy 4s very clumsy keyboard and too many taps for a very simple action hopefully I'll be able to get the iPhone 5 sometime in February of next year

Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529219#Comment_529219

Why would Logos offer all data sets for any package including Minimal Crossgrade but not for the starter or bronze package? Dave is not the only one who has been disappointed in the marketing strategy. The change began with the release of L4.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529225#Comment_529225

Hi Batman,

What do you think Logos should have done differently that would have meant you didn't misunderstand the upgrade situation?

Mark

PS - Whilst Logos has made it clear that they're a business, not a ministry, I'm confident that they're not motivated by money as an end to itself. Most of the employees, and certainly the senior staff, seem to be motivated by helping as many people as possible to study the Bible. Income is a means to that end, not the end itself.

Like Mark said, of course they want to make money. But I can also tell you that they are DEEPLY interested and in love with the Word of God.

David Thomas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529248#Comment_529248

Why would Logos offer all data sets for any package including Minimal Crossgrade but not for the starter or bronze package?

Perhaps because the Minimal crossgrade was designed for existing power Users who already have all the resources they want, and the Starter/Bronze packages were for those who are new to Logos and either don't want advanced language support or can't afford to buy all the bells and whistles, but they want an introductory library with basic functionality.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529279#Comment_529279

Why would Logos offer all data sets for any package including Minimal Crossgrade but not for the starter or bronze package?

Perhaps because the Minimal crossgrade was designed for existing power Users who already have all the resources they want, and the Starter/Bronze packages were for those who are new to Logos and either don't want advanced language support or can't afford to buy all the bells and whistles, but they want an introductory library with basic functionality.

Precisely. Example: I am a power user in Logos and upgraded from L4 to L5 and got the crossgrade, then ended up getting starter as well because I liked some of the new resources.

My mother, however, just got starter, she is new to Logos and doesn't need all of the features and the added cost of having those features.

It took me a while to figure out MY error.

I don't know how long "a while" is but you can return a purchase for the first month. I am sorry the upgrade is so confusing. I hope we don't have the same issues in the next upgrade..

My suggestion is for maybe someone at Logos to go to the Best Buy and get an iPod (cheapest is all that's really needed).

Then maybe download some apps and look at the in-app purchase process. My geology app let me add layers for flooding, earthquakes, missing suns, blood-red moons (end of time stuff), as well as location of gold mines.

Of course I'm just trying to hint that the present Logos method of datasets pretty much hit all cylinders screwing up.

And as to the constant theme 'Logos is a business', I'm SURE quite a number of forum members either run or close to run major businesses; there's no business principle that 'you have to anger the customer to really be successful.'

Logos is perfectly capable on turning on the brain every now and then.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529307#Comment_529307

My suggestion is for maybe someone at Logos to go to the Best Buy and get an iPod (cheapest is all that's really needed).

Then maybe download some apps and look at the in-app purchase process. My geology app let me add layers for flooding, earthquakes, missing suns, blood-red moons (end of time stuff), as well as location of gold mines.

Of course I'm just trying to hint that the present Logos method of datasets pretty much hit all cylinders screwing up.

And as to the constant theme 'Logos is a business', I'm SURE quite a number of forum members either run or close to run major businesses; there's no business principle that 'you have to anger the customer to really be successful.'

Logos is perfectly capable on turning on the brain every now and then.

I really don't understand why everyone is complaining..... Logos bends over backwards for us in Customer Service. They provide an EXCELLENT product, and always own up to their mistakes and work to make them right.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529311#Comment_529311

You must be the guy that's thrilled to go to Customer Service at the retail store and straighten things out.

Most people just want things to work. No muss. No fuss. No need for mistakes and apologies.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529319#Comment_529319

You must be the guy that's thrilled to go to Customer Service at the retail store and straighten things out.

Most people just want things to work. No muss. No fuss. No need for mistakes and apologies.

All I am saying is the initial argument of this thread is a little unfounded as they even said it was their misunderstanding. That being said, Logos has a GREAT product that DOES work. I don't get the arguments here....

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529342#Comment_529342

Yes, it was my misunderstanding. Somehow, when I did a comparison, between the bundles I felt I could afford, the different options fell short. Ie, when I compared minimum crossgrade to starter, Datasets was there. When I compared Starter to Bronze, it never showed up; so, I gave it no thought. All the marketing and tools seemed to indicate these were all part of the bundles (my assumption, bronze and higher).
My whole point to my frustration is, had I realized everything, correctly, I would have understood better, what I was doing. I fault Logos, because it seems typical of their marketing strategy. I will concede out of hope that it is a constant unintentional poor marketing strategy. However, I find there to be a plethora of "oops" happening here.
As an example, recently (as in this year; not two days ago type recent) there was a banner advertising 75% off a bundle. I forget the price point now. Regardless, I clicked on the ad, and a completely different commentary set was added to the cart. The peculiar thing here is, when I noticed it, I went back, and then the correct item showed up. My assumption is, once you put the incorrect one in, the correct one would be added, if you went back.

I have been with Logos since Libronix 3. Sounds like a very long time. Its really only been 3-4 years. If you care to know, I do understand the marketing reasoning for some of the things I have encountered during these past couple years. I think it's wrong, but, if I had the money, and the know-how, I'd be running Logos, or similar company. So, when I am about to say this, I understand the reasoning behind it. I do "get it". When I first purchased L3, I specifically asked about newer versions coming down the pike. I was told they were "not aware of any new versions". Sadly, they were, because within a few months, out comes L4.
There had been a few issues with, shall we say, poorly worded marketing strategies, ads, etc. I will concede that the Logos heads did and do attempt to backtrack and in some way, try to fix things. Problem is, they keep happening, making me wonder, "Is it really error, or, is it intentional?"

They say they want Logos to be "open and honest". Maybe they do. I'm not judge or jury. Just irritated and frustrated. Hence, the rant. I know, nobody wants to criticize a company that provides generally excellent customer support (No argument here, they tend to do a solid job) and nobody wants to criticize a company that produces Bible products, and we all want to see such a company be on the up and up (and, by wording it that way, I am in NO WAY even hinting or implying they are not). However, I do question some levels of integrity, when such issues continually creep up. As I said, extremely frustrating.

As much as I would love to continue, I have to stop for now.

All I am saying is the initial argument of this thread is a little unfounded as they even said it was their misunderstanding. That being said, Logos has a GREAT product that DOES work. I don't get the arguments here....

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529279#Comment_529279

I dont have a lot of time at the moment. However, I did want to respond quickly.
That is fine. And, actually, a great idea. But, my point was, for those who did bump up, why not just add the extra $25 (what I had to pay) to the Bronze, and perhaps the Starter? And, those who did not, have the Minimum CG? Instead, it's upgrade after upgrade and more ads to upgrade further.

Why would Logos offer all data sets for any package including Minimal Crossgrade but not for the starter or bronze package?

Perhaps because the Minimal crossgrade was designed for existing power Users who already have all the resources they want, and the Starter/Bronze packages were for those who are new to Logos and either don't want advanced language support or can't afford to buy all the bells and whistles, but they want an introductory library with basic functionality.

David Thomas

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529367#Comment_529367

why not just add the extra $25 (what I had to pay) to the Bronze, and perhaps the Starter?

Because many users would rather save $25 rather than pay for a dataset that they would never use.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529242#Comment_529242

Since when did batman become a logos user? What software does Robin use?

Robin uses Olive Tree so he always has a place to perch.

-Dan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529366#Comment_529366

However, I do question some levels of integrity, when such issues continually creep up. As I said, extremely frustrating.

As I said more than once I have felt the marketing department has been over zealous and occasionally misleading. I do not think that they have been meaning to mislead anyone though. And I just ignore adverts that have no interest to me.

-Dan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529385#Comment_529385

I view the marketing crew at Logos like a pack of junkyard dogs they are hyper-zealous to do their job. They do what they do and they do it well. [&] [&][&] [&]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529208#Comment_529208

Dan,

Thank you for your response.
There's two issues I want to go into, more to answer you, than anything else, because you deserve a response.

First is "Logos is not the only Bible software company to offer numerous ads in the software".
Perhaps not. But, I still think it is wrong, regardless how many do it. Now, that being said, IF we were talking about free software, I might let up a bit. Granted, in this case, all the ads are for more bo..., err, resources we might be interested in. From Logos. Point in Logos' favor. I still think it is bad CHRISTIAN ethics to do so. I would not choose to do business that particular way. I don't run Logos, or any other Bible software company. I just have to deal with it. (I will return to this because next issue delves into this).

The next point I wanted to address is in regards to shutting off ads on the Home Page.
I personally have known about that for quite a while. Yet, I still get the ads and even a pop-up.I do not wish to eliminate the Home Page altogether, however; and, I am aware of that possibility, as well.

Now, for those who misunderstand my complaint, it's not that Logos advertises other resources we might be interested in; or, more to the point, other resources Logos might be interested in us buying. I also "get it" that Logos is a business. I suppose what irritates me is that any Christian organization would consider itself a business, then Christianity and it's impact second. "Seek ye second the Kingdom of Righteousness?" No! So, why on earth would a Christian based company seek to make itself a business as it's number one priority.

People misunderstand, and think I think that Logos should be given away for free. Nope. They also misunderstand, and think I think they should not be run as an organization and business. No.
I am grateful for the huge undertaking Bob and his team have taken on. It's a huge task, and sure there are problems, but, I do believe they work extremely hard to fix as many as they can. At least technical ones.
It is not that Logos (or any other Christian organization) is a business, and in business to make money. It's how. And, from where I see things, it's not totally good. Am I saying corrupt? NO!!!!! Let me say that again, NO!! But, they seem to be very content making the business goals the number one priority.

And, once again, let me state this. I am sure that no matter what the company does, someone will complain. Even if it were 100% free, and 100% ad free. Again, I do get that. But, at the same time, if there are frustrating issues, should we keep silent? I didn't think so.

Logos is not the only Bible software company to offer numerous ads in the software… If that is truly what is offending you you might go to Accordance when it releases it's Windows software next month. Logos and all of these companies exist to make profit. Logos is not the cheapest but most people myself included find it a decent product that is not too overly priced. Logos can be customized in the home screen to show no ads at all, I also believe you can set your email pretences to the same. I have recently added to mine so as to qualify for getting the birthday coupon. Simon was trying to buy the Holy Spirit from Peter, in effect buy his way into the Church, Logos is not trying to sell you God or the Holy Spirit let alone but it from believers. So you take the verse far out of context, not to say one must be out for the sin of avarice. I am not saying I think Logos is guilty of this. One thing I will say Bob would likely be far far richer with far fewer headaches had he stayed at Microsoft and took all his stock options. But that being said his passion for the Word of God, lead him to found Logos. I would bet he would be most happy if it could be possible to give Logos away, new works are expensive to get into Logos, and while I do not know the pay scale at Logos I would hope the pay is well above minimum wage so these hard working programers and inputing personal can make a decent living. More more more… bigger better newer, are the cries of our culture. And I am surely not much better. But it is in our hearts we much say "It is enough" You may fault Logos for offering you more but you do not need to buy it. And Logos can be upgraded freely at anytime. Any User of 2 or 3 or 4 can download the 5 engine. Yes some of the data sets will be missing that have been added in to 5 (or 4 and 5 if you are coming from 3). But you are at no disadvantage to your current position to take the free upgrade path.

Please feel free to turn off the home page unsubscribe to all emails, then you will have what you want. And unless things changes drastically at Logos in a year or so when 6.0 comes out you will be able to download the free engine but you will not get the "talking puppets" or whatever bells as whistles are reserved for the people who have chosen to purchase an upgrade. Believe me I understand fully your concerns but I am not at sure at all greed is a sin that Logos is guilty of. I do think marketing can and does over do it at times but they want to let you know of all new products that are out there.

Oh that all Christians could take to heart the words of the Psalmist--“Whom have I in heaven but you? And there is nothing on earth that I desire other than you.” (Psalms 73:25 NRSV)

-Dan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529568#Comment_529568

Now, for those who misunderstand my complaint, it's not that Logos advertises other resources we might be interested in; or, more to the point, other resources Logos might be interested in us buying. I also "get it" that Logos is a business. I suppose what irritates me is that any Christian organization would consider itself a business, then Christianity and it's impact second. "Seek ye second the Kingdom of Righteousness?" No! So, why on earth would a Christian based company seek to make itself a business as it's number one priority.

I don't have a good response…. One could say Logos is guilty of spiritual blindness like Elisha's servant whom he prayed might have his eyes open to see the armies of Yahweh around them. But I am reminded of the story of man in the ship wreck who floating on the water refused the rescue front he fishing boat since God will save me, and even rescue from the helicopter, because he knew God would save him, only to arrive in heaven and ask God why didn't you save me? Only to have the response I sent a boat and a helicopter to save you. Sometimes we need God to open our eyes to the providence around us. I cannot say that Logos model is ideal, nor am I going to criticize it as being unchristian. I do think you have a right to make your feelings known and maybe Logos can design better ways to give people an ad free experience while still having the home screen. Believe me I am on your side in believing there is too much commercialization of the Christian world, to the point a few mega churches i have heard of have shops in them (although most small churches still have fun raising things selling calendars and such and I don;t object to that). Zondervan is a good example… They did a 10th anniversary edition of the Study Bible and then another shortly after that, and I think now another. I am not sure of a huge amount of changes in the latest editions, and it just leaves me to feel, lets change the cover, tweak one or two things and cal it new and improved and our customers will beat down our door to have the latest version (but again, I ask should't they strive to improve it, no one is forcing anyone to upgrade), indeed my hard cover had had an encounter with a pond and while I could still use it I bought a copy of the 10th anniversary edition in leather. All I can say is, when all is said and done, I know it is a line Logos walks to have the right level of marketing can not be easy to determine. It is through dialogue that Logos will come to an even better balance I am sure. I hope you never felt I was trying to dismiss all your concerns as baseless or false.

-Dan

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529568#Comment_529568

So, why on earth would a Christian based company seek to make itself a business as it's number one priority.

But, they seem to be very content making the business goals the number one priority.

I'm very sure that's not how Logos sees it. Helping people study the Bible is the number one priority. Business is the means of achieving that priority, and the better the business is done, the more they can help us study. Like you I'm sometimes unhappy with how they run the business (and marketing/sales is the area I think has the most room for improvement), but I've never personally had cause to think that business is their number one priority.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529589#Comment_529589

Maybe they should just go with Karl Marx - Would that make you happy?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529664#Comment_529664

Wow. This forum's pretty rad. Equating Jesus' concerns for the poor to Karl Marx. I suspect Karl might see the greater offense.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529669#Comment_529669

It was a compare and contrast of Karl Marx to Batman - Big difference -

Last time I checked though, being a small business owner, I have more opportunity creating jobs than running an unprofitable enterprise. That's just me

I'm with you. I just got my full featured v5 after two upgrades. They just dropped the ball on this one. Oh well.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529740#Comment_529740

I'm with you. I just got my full featured v5 after two upgrades. They just dropped the ball on this one. Oh well.

What do you mean after two upgrades?

By the way, I love Logos. I think that they filled the need in a big way for the market of Bible Study. No complaints. Its a quality product worth every penny.

I admit that I was very concerned when I watched their office tour video. This is a huge company with buildings full of employees. The question is, where are they going from here? Catholic, Protestant, and Independent studies are starting to all look the same. Products are featuring the topic they address but not always the perspective from which the author address it. I don't mind reading from someone different, I just want to know upfront. What markets are coming next? Mormon, JW, Jewish, Muslim? Will all faiths have their resources available? Faithlife is another issue. It has so much good in it, I can't deny that. Yet, is it not a Wiki form of Bible study? Everyone, from anywhere, add anything to my studies. If you can't quote Wiki in a college paper then I wouldn't look to Faithlife for a sermon. Yes I am condemning them without a hearing. Sorry.

Any thoughts? I could be wrong and off the rail.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529741#Comment_529741

David,

I did the starter, then the cross platform. Its all worked out and Logos is really good about making sure you don't double pay for anything. The chat feature with the sales person was really handy.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529749#Comment_529749

By the way, I love Logos. I think that they filled the need in a big way for the market of Bible Study. No complaints. Its a quality product worth every penny.

I admit that I was very concerned when I watched their office tour video. This is a huge company with buildings full of employees. The question is, where are they going from here? Catholic, Protestant, and Independent studies are starting to all look the same. Products are featuring the topic they address but not always the perspective from which the author address it. I don't mind reading from someone different, I just want to know upfront. What markets are coming next? Mormon, JW, Jewish, Muslim? Will all faiths have their resources available? Faithlife is another issue. It has so much good in it, I can't deny that. Yet, is it not a Wiki form of Bible study? Everyone, from anywhere, add anything to my studies. If you can't quote Wiki in a college paper then I wouldn't look to Faithlife for a sermon. Yes I am condemning them without a hearing. Sorry.

Any thoughts? I could be wrong and off the rail.

Hey Mike,

From what I can tell, a Logos employee could say better, Logos is dedicated to the Christian Faith. The other resources enhance apologetics.

As far as faithlife, I told our church to think of it as a Faith-Based Facebook. It's not really meant for Bible Study, but can be used for resource sharing to do that with. It is a community, usually meant for groups that are physical groups and then also have an online location as well. For instance, the Men's Bible Study I lead at my church use faithlife for prayer requests, Bible Readings, and I upload their handout each week.

Hope that helps clear things up!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529753#Comment_529753

Sounds good to me!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529568#Comment_529568

But, they seem to be very content making the business goals the number one priority.

And, once again, let me state this. I am sure that no matter what the company does, someone will complain. Even if it were 100% free, and 100% ad free. Again, I do get that. But, at the same time, if there are frustrating issues, should we keep silent? I didn't think so.

You certainly have a right to your opinions, just like the rest of us. My opinion is Bob Pritchett has a moral obligation to his one million customers to see that Logos does not go out of business. This should take priority over answering a minority of vocal critics who want Logos to act as a church rather than a business.

Would you be happy to see Bob holding a "Jesus Saves" sign outside of bankruptcy court?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529763#Comment_529763

Supertramp - Are you stating a "Too Big to Fail" policy?

Maybe we should identify a list of companies that have a moral obligation to stay in business for the 21st perhaps 22nd century.

We don't want a repeat like Gutenberg press which was an outrage, we don't have access to the original plates.

If Logos went out of business tomorrow, as a software user, I would not bat an eye and continue forward. Adobe, Apple, Microsoft will be a history students interest in the 23rd century most likely.

I at one time was dependent on vinyl records for music distribution, I survived RCA leaving that business. Amazing eh?

The way digital content will be delivered and our interactions in the future will have no resemblance to what is in place now -

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529787#Comment_529787

Supertramp - Are you stating a "Too Big to Fail" policy?

No. I worked for General Motors, once upon time. There is no such thing as "too big to fail."

I should have said ethical obligation rather than moral. Companies don't have morals.

Everything I own is temporal. But I imagine my Logos library will outlast me. So will my Klein tools.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529801#Comment_529801

[:D][Y]

Noah H.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529208#Comment_529208

Dan

I happen run across this form, I got an question for you. You said that us Christians should take to heart ,Psalms 73:25.

I just wonder do you really believe that JESUS CHRIST , is the SON of GOD?

I have not had any trouble out of LOGOS , and yall been good to answer any questions that I might had to ask.

But I really like to know , am I dealing with an company run by Christen people, and own by christens.

Or is it own by non believers .

For CHRIST said , what good is it to grain the world , and lose your soul.

Noah H.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529311#Comment_529311

Logos has really , done me well on Customer Service , even went I lost my job and couldn't make my paymenys on time , LOGO'S bear with me until I found another one. I do got to give them that.

Noah H.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529375#Comment_529375

[:D] Hey that angood one Dan, it made melaught

Bad night last night. Apparently Logos went down, and, my main response got lost in the process. Thanks to all who have responded. I will once again attempt my response tonight, but, to all and in a more generic fashion.

First, let me assure everyone, I am indeed aware of turning on and off ads on the Home Page. However, I did receive a sort of pop-up, despite that. Also, I do understand some people enjoy having everything on the Home Page. I will address that issue later. Thanks to the forums, I did learn how to do that, previously, and, perhaps someone newer has learned it now.

Second, people seem to think I am opposed to Logos or Logos being a profitable company. NOT AT ALL! I simply think that ANY organization that claims to be Christian should not check the Christianity ethics at the door, and then say "We're a business". Anyone see the Hebrew National Beef Hot Dog commercials? Whether it's true or not, again, I'm not judge, the slogan should be the number one statement for any business claiming to be Christian: "We answer to a higher authority". THAT is what my point is. A reminder of WHY one is in business. Christian businesses, Churches, Missions, Radio Stations, Bible publishers and so on, should remember that they are not delivering just any product or service. Logos produces Bibles in digital format. They also produce Christian (and religious books), and now even other non-religious books.
Do I begrudge any business making money? NOT AT ALL! Instead, it is when a Christian business, those whose works include producing the very words of God, such as Logos, should ALWAYS remember WHY they are in business. If it's to make money first, their priorities is screwed up. Regardless what the law says, for example, there is no copyright infringement on quoting the Bible. NONE OF US AUTHORED IT! Sorry all you publishers who think otherwise. Should these companies be protected from piracy? Probably. Should they be paid for their efforts? Most definitely. Should they become wealthy? I do NOT begrudge anyone ANYTHING for the labor they do. And if God blesses someone with wealth beyond their imagination, GREAT! My issue is a company who is publishing someone else's work, as if it were their own, in this case, God's authorship, NOT THEIR'S, and barely even acknowledges that it is with humility and an honor to be entrusted with taking on such an awesome task; but rather states, and quite openly, and bluntly, "We are not a ministry, we are a business".

I also "get it" when it comes to being a business. As one (was that you, Super.Tramp?) who said, "Would I rather see them in bankruptcy?" (NOT an exact quote). No. I would rather see them acknowledge Christ first, and then being a business. I don't say this as judge. I say this as from Logos' own words. Perhaps if the priority were refocused to serving our God, and being honored to have been selected to create what we would all tend to agree as an awesome product (despite some glitches that are always around all software, and one of this magnitude, its amazing there arent more), and then on being a business, perhaps some of these other issues would tend to resolve themselves.
Now, understand, I am not a fool to think that nobody would ever have complaints. As the old saying goes, "You cannot please all of the people all of the time".

All I am saying here is, it comes across very heavily that the priority at Logos is to be a business first. Then, oh yeah, Go God! How does that change? Well, depending on how far this is, whether it's just a slight "Hey, we have to make money to stay in business" mindset vs. the mindset of one particular TV Evangelist, who was exposed as being out to sucker religious people. Obviously, God can change anyone. But, it's a self examination, and it's between each person and God. For we must all give account for our own selves. When it comes to Logos, yeah, there are some things that are frustrating, but, at the end of the day, even IF the motivation is pure greed (and notice I said, IF, meaning, I am not saying there is even a hint of greed), even IF, then, at least we all are getting the tools necessary to equip us to be better students of God's word, and better teachers of God's word. As Paul says, "At least the Gospel is being preached".
As an example, take a look at the King James Bible. Was it done with purest of motives? Probably not. But, look at what the result was. How the world was changed, because of it being produced. I hope everyone understands this.

So, someone asked how I would change things, so as to help avoid these types of issues. Since there are several issues here, I will outline them.

First, marketing. I have NO problems with marketing (I do wish Logos would get their marketing act together, as there have been several instances I have encountered where things did not come out as perhaps intended, planned, or whatever. I am making NO allegations of any sort. Just that when I click on an ad banner, it should not ad a different set in the checkout. Wordings should be reviewed to be clear as to what is being offered, at what price, etc. This seems to be more common than we should care to know. Why? I have no idea. But, I pray Logos reviews the marketing strategy and is critical when looking at them, to make sure they are saying what they intending. I have had several issues, my own self, so, I suspect there are many others who have. Wait, I read several in this thread alone. And then others. So, it is in fact a problem. One that needs to be corrected. Right?

Second. I shop with one site that has a pretty awesome grasp on newsletters and advertising. It's a comic related business, and they cater to many franchises in comics, movies, etc. When signing up, people can choose what franchises they want to receive marketing updates on. I chose (no surprise here) DC Comics (Batman) and Star Wars. Chose not to receive some other franchises.
How awesome would this be? We sign up for Logos' newsletters and email ads (by choice) and then we can choose different categories. Say for instance someone wants to receive only Bible specials and say Commentaries. Someone else may like only one Bible, so, they choose Grammar. Someone else may be interested in everything. So, they choose all. Some may not want anything else, so, they may receive emails only when important upgrades (free and notices that Logos next is available) are needed, but no other ads. User choice. So it might look like this:
I want to know about specials in the following categories (a check list that includes "all").
I don't want to know about specials at all. Just notify me when new updates are available.

This also works for the Home Page. Some love getting all the ads on their home page. Some hate it. I know it can be tweaked to some degree, but. should people have to resort to bypassing the Home Page altogether to avoid any ads? So upon purchase, shouldn't it be clear what an opt-in or out would entail? And for those opting in to receive ads, they could receive tailored ads, as shown above, and those opting out, would receive none. But again, update notification should be offered, never pestering. Agreed? Hope so. If not, you'll have to agree to disagree. [:D]

Now as to what happened with my situation that caused this entire rant, yes, I have a suggestion there as well.
Here's what happened to me. I purchased Libronix 3. Within months, despite my specific question in this matter, and having received a denial, Logos 4 was released. I would rather have been told "Yes, we are releasing a new version shortly, but, here is why you don't want to wait,,,," than to have been flat out lied to. THAT right from the start puts me in an antagonist mood towards ANYTHING that goes wrong in the future, so much more so with a business that is producing the Bible. Does everyone understand now where the antagonism is coming from? Good.
So, here I am, now within less than three years from purchase, am being asked to purchase a third bundle. Do I have to? Of course not. But, now after a couple months, I have to decide do I upgrade? Do I stick with L3? Well, that decision gets made for me. THANKFULLY Logos does do this right, and does not pull a typical software move on us. They do offer the L4 "skeleton" for free. I don't think we got all the L4 bells and whistles, which is fine. But, in that Logos did decide to stop support, they did not leave people completely stranded. Bravo! And, while I am on it, Logos does do an excellent job staying on top of new OS's. (And as we ALL know, these are two EXTREMELY frustrating failures of most companies. Logos passes this with flying colors!)
I did not like L4's setup, so I did request the refund, which they promptly refunded. (Again, EXCELLENT scores for Logos). However, I did end up taking on the free L4 skeleton. Now, shortly thereafter, comes L5. I like some of the bo, err resources in L5. I especially am excited about some of the new features. For whatever reason, I missed the boat on where the features I wanted were available. I'm assuming at this point, the name "Minimal Crossgrade" is where I screwed up. I was under the impression that those who wanted the minimal features of Logos 5 could get it at a lower price. When I compared options, I now realize, the comparisons change when you compare two bundles.
So, that would be the first thing I would change. I would not customize what one gets, per se, I would keep it all listed. (I do believe there is a full comparison that does do this; but, I did not find it, until later).

Further, I think that having the Crossgrade is an excellent idea. For about $100ish, those who do not want to upgrade to Logos 5 can get ALL the features. I probably would have done this option, had I fully understood this whole thing. But, Im not complaining about going bigger. I did want some of what was included in the Bronze.

The next thing I would have changed is charging (as in my case) the additional $25 to the Bronze package (perhaps even to the Starter). By doing this, none of us knows we are paying the additional $25. We just might choke a little, as I did, when I saw $300ish to upgrade. (And, I do hope I got the resources from L4, since I had to pay that upgrade cost, as well. I think I did, but, there is no way of telling). But, the point here is, I upgraded to Starter (MY choice) failed to get what I wanted, by not fully understanding the details. I decided later I did in fact want to go Bronze. MY choice. I'm totally cool with it, because it was MY choice. Then I find out later, I did not get what was touted as being so whoop-dee-doo in Logos 5. Honestly, I thought I had not received all the updates and downloads. (Since I have seen three updates since upgrading, I still wonder). I came to the forums, and after seeing people not getting Clause searches, etc., I again thought there was an issue with the downloads. THEN I discovered the reality. It's only included in Silver and higher packages! At this point, Im ready to go full refund and just use what I had, and use the free skeleton. Suddenly, I read the Minimal Upgrade at yet another $25 price tag. Ive gone through so much money the past couple months, having to get a different car, amongst other things, whats another $25? The major issue is, WHY NOT BYPASS the stupidity right from the start? Add it to the bundles, and add the fee. At least that way, it helps keep people from feeling as I do. Helps; not eliminates. But, WHY cause more issues than is necessary? As one person said, and I am reversing their psychology, "Why would someone like my grandmother want to pay an additional $25 for bells and whistles they won't ever use?" But that's the point! Having a minimal crossgrade that offers the minimum is indeed a good thing. And, at a minimal price. But, when someone gets a Bronze package, which DOES retail at $630, don't you think there is reason to include the highly touted datasets? Even if it does cost an extra $25?

And finally, but, definitely not least, the most important change I would make is to make it clear that Logos is in fact a Bible-based company, who's main objective is to spread the Word of God, and to equip those who spread the Word of God. Then, to be a business, have a business model that exalts God, and at the same time has the sense enough to know how to stay in business. But, the main thing as they say, is to keep the main thing, the main thing. Right?

So, now you all understand better, why the seeming lunatic rant. Do I judge anyone at Logos? No. But, by their own words, Logos' primary purpose is to be a successful business. And, as far as I can see, that is never going to honor God, and it is never going to succeed. Regardless how much money is made.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529241#Comment_529241

I'm not faulting Logos. I'm only making a suggestion. They already suggest extra book packages at discounts when one upgrades to a package, so it would make sense to offer data sets along with those special upgrade deals. That might help some of this. They may already do this; I don't know.

That would also be good. This way people are fully aware of what they are not getting. I believe it's called "full disclosure" of sorts.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529242#Comment_529242

Since when? A few months before Logos 4.
humor may very well be needed in a heated topic like this. But, what good does hiding from criticisms do anyone? If I am unjustified in my statements, I will have to answer for them. If I am correct, and there needs to be a heart change, and it happens, isn't that a good thing? So, either way, it should be a good thing.

IPhone 5? You sure? I'd do my investigating on that one. IPhones are very expensive and do they offer more? Also, when investigating, find out how to get things fixed, and how much it costs, and all those insider details they disclose, but you don't hear. Afterwards, if you want one, at least you will be fully informed. There's lots of little things that arent easily known about Macs. And, Im not downing them, just making you aware of their proprietariness. That has been known to be an issue down the line. If you are aware of them at the start, no surprises, and you'll be ok. (Unfortunately, I do not remember all the details, as when I dealt with cell phones, there were a lot coming on the market. I just remember there were some proprietary differences that caused some headaches, because users were uninformed).

Since when did batman become a logos user? What software does Robin use?

LOL, I'm sorry, I just had to throw that one out there...just trying to relieve the tension in the air. Here's a riddle for you guys: What did batman tell Robin before they got in the car?....

Batman said, "Robin, get in the car..."

Anyway, about upgrading I wouldn't mind upgrading back to platinum if I had the money but unfortunately at this time I have to settle for bronze and the minimal crossgrade so I can have all the features and databases ,other than that I'm content with what I have hopefully when my situation gets better I will be able to buy what I want but so far so good you guys have a blessed day and sorry about the jokes but you know that was funny -- preacher's jokes I call them sometimes not really funny. Alright have a good one!

DAL

ps. I literally hate my samsung galaxy 4s very clumsy keyboard and too many taps for a very simple action hopefully I'll be able to get the iPhone 5 sometime in February of next year

Mike Childs

Brother, I just can't agree with you.

After all, Logos does GIVE AWAY FREE their software engine and a number of free Bibles, including an audio Bible. There are a large number of free resources from Logos, and there are more free resources given away each month.

In over 18 years of doing business with them, I personally have never been treated unfairly.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/529951#Comment_529951

See Bob's post below.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/530045#Comment_530045

Not arguing, Bradley, but Bob's apologetics are always business based. I'm guessing he doesn't go down the religion road since it'd be a no win. So, conclusions are drawn from Logos behavior.