is the issue COMPETING products mentioned in the forum?

I'm stil a little shaky on this;

Is the issue mentioning COMPETING bible software on the forum OR is it mentioning products by name in general?

I was thinking about some note taking software and wanted to mention it because it's great and didn't know if that would be a faux paux or not..

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

Terry Poperszky

I don't think there was any real consensus but for most people, it was mentioning products (and posting links) that had the possibility of taking money out of the pocket of Logos. Mentioning the names of other products shouldn't tick anyone off, but who knows we are Christians, we can be offended by almost anything. [;)]

Mark

Robert

I thought the link to Dan P's response was pretty clear. (see http://community.logos.com/forums/p/136/4581.aspx#4581 . He said that that there was a difference of opinion between him and his brother Bob P who leads the company. Dan feels that the forum should have rules and one of the rules would be that competing products should not be mentioned as it is a logos forum. Bob apparently did not agree (according to the post) and has refused to put rules on forum members. Dan respects Bob's decision, though he disagrees with it. Different forum members have sided with one side or another.

Personally, if off topic posts are allowed and if space is given to people to talk about snow or how many posts they put on the forum, or how to hijack a thread, then I would suggest, that as some forum members seem to benefit from those posts, others would benefit from suggested software you or others might suggest.

Matthew C Jones

DISCLAIMER: I am not a Logos employee (wish I was).. Neither do I speak on behalf of Bob, Dan, or Dale Pritchett. This is just my understanding of the issues and is subject to correction.

Is the issue mentioning COMPETING bible software on the forum OR is it mentioning products by name in general?

Robert,

To answer the question in a nutshell: Competing sales. That includes active links and sales advertisements for competitors. I venture to say it includes leading forum users to third party sites to buy Libronix software that is available on Logos.com . I have personally given references to Libronix products for sale outside of the Logos web site when such product is not offered for sale on the Logos site. It is doubtful Logos could lose any sales by those posts. If you have a recommendation on a useful tool that is complementary to Logos, by all means share it with us.

The disagreement between Bob and Dan is about whether or not there should be rules for the forum. I seriously doubt Bob and Dan have a big disagreement over whether or not competing software companies should get a big color advertisement and link posted that drags customers to the competitor's site for sales. As explained before, active links to competitor's sales sites are damaging. Also, highly praising a direct competitor while bashing Logos in this forum is just plain rude.

But Bob Pritchett himself is open and uncritical with his comments on non-Logos products that can be used complementary with Logos products for enhancing the studies and productivity of Logos users. There has been open dialogue on using different note taking tools (Zotero, OneNote, etc.) Logos 4 has been linked to various outside web sites (SermonAudio.) But you will never hear Bob tell you go buy the "other guy's software" if Logos has a comparable solution.

Donovan R. Palmer

My understanding was competing products. Mainly because if this is done alot with linking, it skews up rankings in Google searches, etc. On the other hand, products of more general types, were not a problem. (i.e. as someone here has said OneNote, Zotzero, etc.)

Regardless of this, I personally feel that it is is bad taste to go onto someone's forum and promote their competitor's products anyhow. I don't hide the fact that I use other products, but would rather promote them one on one or in more neutral venues.

Mark

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60159#Comment_60159

I think both Don and Matthew have given good advice. But still, the issue can be gray. For example, what do you do about Galaxie's Journal resources? They are produced by Galaxie, and yet, Logos sells them on their site: http://www.logos.com/products/details/2111

Does this mean we should not direct people towards the Libronix offerings offered by a publishing partner? It also might be hard for forum members to distinguish between a partner and a competitor. I for one, did not know Rejoice was a competitor until I got that impression on the forum. I would have assumed they were a partner as Galaxie is described or as Nelson would be described.

I agree wiht Don and Matthew about poor taste in promoting competing products. But there is a gray line in all of this.

Bobby Terhune

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60184#Comment_60184

Concerning Galaxie Software my thoughts are this, Galaxie is a licensed producer of Logos products, If I buy directly from them then 50.00 goes to help a company produce more products and keep them updated. It took a lot of effort for Galaxie to update all those back issues of their journals to the latest Logos format and fix all the typo's. Since they really do support their journal files, I personally feel right about my money going to them. They are my only exception to purchasing from Logos.

Think about "Other" previous products that have Old file dates, that have never been updated since their initial release. In my library I have 1,221 books that have a file date of 2004 or earlier, These books predate Libronix 3, plus I still have 50 or so files still in LSF/LIX format. These files have never had any typos fixed, or additional updated tagging done. Compared to other publishing partners, I think Galaxie has really done a great job.

J.R. Miller

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60197#Comment_60197

Bob has said before that it comes down to trusting us to act with restraint and with respect. A sort of, "do unto to others as you would have them do unto you" policy. So imagine you are running a company that sells widgets Imagine your ability to feed your family, and pay your employees, and the future of your company relied upon sales of your "widget". Would you like other widget companies or their users to come to your website and say, "hey, stop buying widgets though this company, you can get a better price on widgets at this other company."

How would you respond? Would you like it? Would you encourage others to continue doing this?

However you answer the questions, is how Bob has asked you and me to act on this forum. Since we do not live under the Law, but under grace, I think Bob would like to think we would trust in the leading of the Spirit and conviction of our own conscience rather than set a "policy".

Hope that helps :-) Merry Christmas all.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60219#Comment_60219

Thanks for chiming in everyone; I think you answered my Q.

As you can see; I did ask it in the General forum.

bob

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60197#Comment_60197

Galaxie is a licensed producer of Logos products, If I buy directly from them then 50.00 goes to help a company produce more products and keep them updated. It took a lot of effort for Galaxie to update all those back issues of their journals to the latest Logos format and fix all the typo's. Since they really do support their journal files, I personally feel right about my money going to them. They are my only exception to purchasing from Logos.

Bobby, Your whole post is well thought out and commendable. I do see Galaxie and Nelson as publishers of Libronix format material and that is different than being just a reseller of that software. You are correct in praising them for updating their titles. I don't have any problem with you supporting them with a purchase. I will ask that you not evangelize the forum readers to switch where THEY purchase the Galaxie titles. I'm not even sure you espouse that opinion. That is the only point I might differ with you on. If BobP wanted to compare a user's licenses with their Logos.com purchases he would discover most have purchased some resources elsewhere. [:$]

Hey Robert P., Can you now share with us the note software you are thinking is so good?

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60255#Comment_60255

http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/redmond/projects/inkseine/

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60283#Comment_60283

Robert, That is very interesting. Thanks for sharing this find.

First, I just have to comment on the link & company name. When Bill Gates gets a hold of these guys he might end up owning their company. Their website and name are prominently displayed while their disclaimer is down towards the bottom of their page. (They are NOT Micro soft)

The application looks feature rich but won't appeal to most users. I used PenWrite Pro and a couple others to write stylus input apps. I thought the market too limited to keep up with this stuff. (Sometimes I still use handwriting recognition for kanji input.) The functionality of it would have saved me lots of work last Summer creating my OneNote files of Logos 3.0 resources. I will definitely check it out further.

BillS

Is the issue...?

Hi Robert,

To me, the "issue" seems to be a bit like sin... With sin, it isn't so much how close we can get without actually crossing the line into sin. Rather, it's how close to the center of God's will we can get.

Similarly, no one disagrees on the purpose of the forums & newsgroups: to discuss Logos Bible software & its use. How close we can get to the center of that purpose is the issue, not discovering how far away we can get from their intent without technically crossing Logos' line--whether the line is at mentioning competing bible software or whether it's doing something that would deprive Logos of revenue.

May Christ's joy & peace be with each & every member of this community that has formed around our common interest!

Blessings to you all.

Bill

Bobby Terhune

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60286#Comment_60286

Matthew,

I sure don't want to evangelize anyone or to change their buying habits, or who they feel they should support. I want Logos to suceed! I support the prepub system even when I know from a financial point of view the "value" of my purchases will decline in value later compared to what I paid for them, when they get put into a future bundle or base package.

Portfolio edition is selling for 4,290.00 for 1,550 resources, and that comes out to about 2.75 per title. Why then do I support prepub? Because if no one buys the resources on prepub and supports Logos, they will never get produced. And of course I get the benefit of using that resource for a couple of years before it gets included in a bundle of some sort, if indeed it ever does.

I remember how painful that realization hit me when L3 Gold came out. I had already bought the New American Commentary, NIGNT, and the Pulpit Commentary and other many other books besides before It came out. But in reality I'm OK with it, if seminary students or pastors had to purchase these and other packages individually, think how small many peoples library's would be. In effect the prepub system paid for the development costs so that Logos could bless others down the road with more books for less money. I say Amen to that!

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60311#Comment_60311

To me, the "issue" seems to be a bit like sin... With sin, it isn't so much how close we can get without actually crossing the line into sin. Rather, it's how close to the center of God's will we can get.

Similarly, no one disagrees on the purpose of the forums & newsgroups: to discuss Logos Bible software & its use. How close we can get to the center of that purpose is the issue, not discovering how far away we can get from their intent without technically crossing Logos' line--whether the line is at mentioning competing bible software or whether it's doing something that would deprive Logos of revenue.

Bill, Now you've gone and made me feel guilty for the many digressions I have posted. [:$] I do appreciate Robert's sensitivities to this issue. If only I could be that way with everybody else here...

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60317#Comment_60317

Now you've gone and made me feel guilty

Hi Matthew, & thanks for the gentle response. I'm not casting stones... (to start, I'd have to be "not guilty" of digressions, myself!) and am hoping my post didn't come across as against anyone... Rather, it's my reminder to myself as much as anyone that if I'm looking at the edges of the lane, I'm looking in the wrong direction... need to be looking at the center. The forums are just another area where it's all too easy to find myself turned around. [:(]

Blessings to each of you!

Bill

J.R. Miller

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60314#Comment_60314

Why then do I support prepub? Because if no one buys the resources on prepub and supports Logos, they will never get produced. And of course I get the benefit of using that resource for a couple of years before it gets included in a bundle of some sort, if indeed it ever does.

Back in 1990, my college roommate bought a 4 head Dolby Surround Sound VCR for $600. Today, I can get a VCR with superior technology at Wal-Mart for $39. Early adapters always pay more for the exact reasons you mention, but they also get the value of longer use.

Right on brother! [Y]

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60286#Comment_60286

Their website and name are prominently displayed while their disclaimer is down towards the bottom of their page. (They are NOT Micro soft)

Matthew,

They are one of the "R&D" portions of MS right? If you read some of their stuff; this is early dev stuff; at least that's the way I read it.

thanks for the tip on PenWritePro...I'll check it out...if you know of more; please share them...I'm always on the lookout for this kind of thing.

sigh...if I'd only bought a tablet pc..... [:D]

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60311#Comment_60311

To me, the "issue" seems to be a bit like sin... With sin, it isn't so much how close we can get without actually crossing the line into sin. Rather, it's how close to the center of God's will we can get.

Bill,

No...I think you missed my point. I didn't know what the rule was. I'm not trying to "see what I can get away with" or anything like that...I didn't know what the rule is...is it:

1.) No product can ever be mentioned on this blog.

2.) No competing bible software product can be mentioned.

that's all....it wasn't a moral issue for me...I just didn't want to post my post about the note software and have someone tell me that I didn't read Dan's post closely enough....or didn't understand it well enough....

God bless,

bob

Juanita

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60311#Comment_60311

Similarly, no one disagrees on the purpose of the forums & newsgroups: to discuss Logos Bible software & its use.

Let me use Bill's statement to ask about "off topic" labeled threads. If they are related to computer issues, glitches, hardware, and are not about Logos Bible software, then apparently they aren't approved?? I had a computer issue the other day and my husband said to ask the guys on the Logos forum and I told him it was not allowed-that any post had to be about Logos Bible software. I respect the right of Logos to limit the scope of what is permissible on the forum and I have no problem with that.

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60481#Comment_60481

If they are related to computer issues, glitches, hardware, and are not about Logos Bible software, then apparently they aren't approved??

Joan, Bob P hates rules. So there are no rules.

BUT, they have indicated many times (and this was true also on the newsgroups) that they provide this service for Logos related issues. Normally, this clarification has come about after a theological discussion. There are many other places on the web for such discussions and they have no desire for these forums to provide a place for these especially given that they often devolve into arguments.

They have also told us what we should all already know - it is bad form to advertise a competitors product - like walking into Burger King and telling people the burgers are cheaper at McDonalds.

We need to use our common sense with regard to other Off Topic areas - an occasional request for prayers, an inquiry about those struck by a blizzard - these don't take over the forums in teh same way that theological arguments do (or political ones).

I hope that that is as clear as mud

Juanita

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60489#Comment_60489

Yes, Damian, thanks. I am in favor of giving others grace and actually when someone asks for prayer and I see dozens of responses, it is quite heart warming. I think we need to have that kind of care and unity displayed occasionally.

When it comes to other Bible software companies, it is ironic that Logos software can be discussed rather freely in their forums to the point of how to write syntax so Logos will open up to a particular location when invoked from their software. However, each forum is unique and has their way of doing things, understandably.

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60494#Comment_60494

When it comes to other Bible software companies, it is ironic that Logos software can be discussed rather freely in their forums to the point of how to write syntax so Logos will open up to a particular location when invoked from their software.

I wrote a number of the posts on the BW forum on how to access Libronix v3. We also had a discussion here not long ago about how many of us use BW and Logos side by side. The issue is not, as I understand it, interoperability but people encouraging others to use a different program (and the Mac area is particularly sensitive in this regard)....

Donovan R. Palmer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60499#Comment_60499

The issue is not, as I understand it, interoperability but people encouraging others to use a different program (and the Mac area is particularly sensitive in this regard)....

As a user of another Mac Bible product, I have never understood the greater sensitivities. For years I have seen people use Logos and BW side by side on Windows, so it shouldn't be a problem to do it on OSX. In fact, I would just like to see it normalised.

Damian McGrath

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60530#Comment_60530

Donovan, I agree with you. It shouldn't be a problem. But, I can't ever remember people saying "I don't like logos for windows please tell me about BW." Sadly, we've had lots of posts like that wrt the Mac. I think it's a cumulative sensitivity.

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60537#Comment_60537

@Damian, and @Donovan. I think the sensitivity is related in some way to the inherent "war" over Win v Mac platform wars. I can guarantee the same degree of difficulty if ever a Linux product were released.

Donovan R. Palmer

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60540#Comment_60540

@Damian, and @Donovan. I think the sensitivity is related in some way to the inherent "war" over Win v Mac platform wars. I can guarantee the same degree of difficulty if ever a Linux product were released.

Probably. I just see them all as cool tools. Get the cool tool you need, and if you can, get more than one cool tool! [H]

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60472#Comment_60472

They are one of the "R&D" portions of MS right? If you read some of their stuff; this is early dev stuff; at least that's the way I read it.

I read it differently. I will dig deeper to discover which it is. I may be wrong but I believe they want you to think they are part of MS when in fact they are not. We will see. Their product looks very versatile.

thanks for the tip on PenWritePro...I'll check it out...if you know of more; please share them...I'm always on the lookout for this kind of thing.

Sorry Robert, it wasn't meant to be a recommendation. It is very old software that primarily was used to write apps used on tablets in police cars and such. I don't know if it is still used or usable on today's hardware. I also used some program from a company called OWL. I wil try & find out if these or other pen development stuff is available now. The program you found looks workable, especially when used in conjunction with OneNote. Why is it they always market pen tablets for sports coaches? I hate locker rooms! [+o(] They stink.

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60530#Comment_60530

As a user of another Mac Bible product, I have never understood the greater sensitivities. For years I have seen people use Logos and BW side by side on Windows, so it shouldn't be a problem to do it on OSX. In fact, I would just like to see it normalised.

They are, after all, tools. Mac/Windows, Logos/that other application. Much of it is mere personal preference. Preferences can and do change. It is not worth an ulcer.

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60474#Comment_60474

it wasn't a moral issue for me...

Hi Bob,

God bless, & I ask forgiveness for any offense offered--none was intended.

Although I'd like to comment further, I believe that at this point for me wisdom would be silence. [:#]

Blessings, brother!

Bill

Ted Hans

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60698#Comment_60698

As a user of another Mac Bible product, I have never understood the greater sensitivities. For years I have seen people use Logos and BW side by side on Windows, so it shouldn't be a problem to do it on OSX. In fact, I would just like to see it normalised.

They are, after all, tools. Mac/Windows, Logos/that other application. Much of it is mere personal preference. Preferences can and do change. It is not worth an ulcer.

By "that other application" you mean Accordance. Like Donovan, I have never understood the sensitivities expressed sometimes in the forum. I think promoting another software is bad form in a Logos forum but to mention another software some folks just get upset over nothing IMHO. I am amazed how tribal some folks have become about a tool like a software. Perhaps this is cultural but i have really not been able to understand it.

I think the real difficulty is in understanding what the word PROMOTING means.

Ted

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60481#Comment_60481

If they are related to computer issues, glitches, hardware, and are not about Logos Bible software, then apparently they aren't approved?? I had a computer issue the other day and my husband said to ask the guys on the Logos forum and I told him it was not allowed-that any post had to be about Logos Bible software.

Joan, Since I see you on the forums I assume you are an avid Logos user. Therefore any time your computer has a glitch your use of Logos is being effected (Work with me here [;)] ) So posting hardware or operating system questions IS somewhat related to getting better usage from your Logos software. Feel free to ask how to tweek your computer to enhance the Logos experience.

There are threads on which operating system runs Logos best. There are threads about what drive configuration makes Logos shine. Dual monitor usage is covered as well as handheld devices. Dave Hooton and Richard DeRuiter have helped me immeasurably with backup/restore instructions and hardware configuration recommendations. There are a bunch of technically savy people on the forums at all times. You will get helpful answers more quickly posting here than anywhere else I know. (Except for Richard who thought he deserved a Christmas vacation with family in Southern California. He couldn't figure out how to log in the forums while ocean surfing! Have a blessed time with your family, Richard.)

Remember what our teachers used to say about questions? For evey student that asks, there are 20 more in the classroom that are wondering the same thing. If you have a technical problem it is likely somebody else has had it too. They may have the solution already or join your quest for the solution. Post away!

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/60715#Comment_60715

Remember what our teachers used to say about questions? For evey student that asks, there are 20 more in the classroom that are wondering the same thing. If you have a technical problem it is likely somebody else has had it too. They may have the solution already or join your quest for the solution. Post away!

Matthew

That was a superb post! This is basically a self-policing community, but we welcome inquires.

Quick Links

Recent Posts
Activity
Unanswered