Place all your Verbum-specific suggestions here! (or, How to Rebrand Logos for Catholics!)

Logos really is wonderful software, just like America is a wonderful country. However, just as you can tell that America was for many years staunchly non-Catholic in its convictions, and that Catholics were for long stretches strangers and sojourners in this country, just so does Verbum have a lot of stuff going for it that Catholics have to remember to bracket, and most of this stuff is from the Logos days.

I can appreciate that Logos is a friend's party, rather than home. I also understand that this is pretty much the reason for Verbum is branching out like it is into re-branding.

Consider these suggestions as suggestions on how and where to re-brand better. I do love the product, mind, otherwise I wouldn't bother --- you have a lot of great commentaries and resources, and even when they're free they're brilliantly indexed in Verbum. Wonderful!

However, it still stands improvement, as do all things of the world.

Generally, these suggestions come in three sorts:

Catholic foundations. Big sources which tells you that you're at home. (Nos. 1, 2, 3, 4.)
"Scrutiny hat" toggles. Functions and features which reminds you when you're leaving home. (Nos. 5, 6.) These are especially important during and probably easier to implement than the replacing the "foundation" reference works.
Flavoring. Little sources and features that make you feel at home. (Nos. 7, 8.)

More specifically:

Timeline. Some stuff on the timeline regarding Church history seems questionable. Just as an example, I learned yesterday that the office of bishop was invented in the second century. (This is odd not just in a Catholic sense, I might add, and in a Catholic sense it is downright confusing, if not wrong, if not plain wrong.)
Basic resources for basic features not included in Verbum. When I tried to look up the references for a different claim on the timeline, I find that it references a basic resource found as low as Logos Bronze (Baker Encyclopedia of the Bible.) Hrm. Well. I don't have Logos Bronze. I have Verbum Master. Presumably, the Timeline will be getting an overhaul when the Catholic Encylopedia (1910) comes out.
Overhaul the timeline, &c. when the Catholic Encyclopedia (1910) comes out. Also, include it in some low- or mid-level base packages.
Reading lists. Lots of these reading lists, being from and for a non-Catholic standpoint, are not very helpful. Not only do they reference works which, as per No. 2, are not in even the Master-level library, but even if these works were included they would contain claims not at all safe to examine without putting on our scrutiny hats. Which brings me to this:
Color-code different sources. I have a fascination with Reformed theology for reasons which are not appropriate on these forums, so I bought a package of Calvinist resources. Is there a way I could, at a glance or at a toggle, tell which resources are not Catholic? I'd hate to start reading Contending for the Faith without the friendly reminder that I'm "at a friend's party" with that one. Color-coding non-Catholic sources would be a solution. Also, it would help winnow or prioritize non-Catholic reading lists.
Toggle an "auto-hide" on non-Catholic sources, toggling it on for casual reading and study and off for academic work.
Images. I can appreciate that this is primarily study software, and that there are going to be low-resolution scans of public domain woodcuts in grainy black and grey. However, please look into making my Home Page not full of text, and my image searches not tons of clip art. The Catholic faith enjoys the greatest art there ever was and ever will be. Magnificat, for its part, does this sort of thing very well, as does Daniel Mitsui, and Corpus Christi Watershed. For that matter, the Art Renewal Center may be a good resource for a lot of classic religious and devotional art. Maybe you can even use Wikipedia, if you keep the images themselves free. Seriously --- send a photographer to Europe for six weeks and you'll get it. License photos and you'll do even better.
Hymnal. The good folks at Corpus Christi Watershed have now put together two Hymnal-Missals using only public domain hymnody. Nothing against "A Mighty Fortress is Our God" but "Faith of our Fathers" seems like it deserves even more attention under a Verbum branding.

I'll most more as I notice more. These are, as always, open for discussion.

Any thoughts?

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Comments

Unix

#5 is a great suggestion, also occasional commentary volumes in sets that are predominantly Protestant!!:[quote]Color-code different sources. I have a fascination with Reformed theology for reasons which are not appropriate on these forums, so I bought a package of Calvinist resources. Is there a way I could, at a glance or at a toggle, tell which resources are not Catholic? I'd hate to start reading Contending for the Faith without the friendly reminder that I'm "at a friend's party" with that one. Color-coding non-Catholic sources would be a solution. Also, it would help winnow or prioritize non-Catholic reading lists.

The 1966 Jerusalem Bible Reader's Edition!

Matthew C Jones

Overhaul the timeline, &c. when the Catholic Encyclopedia (1910) comes out.

Leave my timeline out of the "overhaul" Don't add it until Logos 6 so I can skip the upgrade.

Color-code different sources.

How about just colour code all the Catholic resources? There are less of them to deal with. A litany of rainbow colours will just become confusing and won't help those with poor eyesight much. Remember the pie graph of denominational resources? It was hard to distinguish between the colours of some groups. The Rainbow Bible had to issue a colour coded bookmark to help readers differentiate the different colours.

Besides the confusion, this sounds like the idea of another poster to put "heresy labels" on Catholic works. Why can't we stick with denominational tagging and let each reader take some personal responsibility for what they read?

BTW: I have Verbum Capstone along with Logos Portfolio. I am not at all against Catholic resources. I ordered the Catholic Encyclopaedia in a third party software while I await its release from Pre-Pub in Logos. No hurt feelings intended.

Unix

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538094#Comment_538094

RC users would get value for their money: Protestants already get more value being able to discern conservative/traditionalist works with the help of denominational tagging:

Why can't we stick with denominational tagging and let each reader take some personal responsibility for what they read?

MJ. Smith

While I understand the impetus for many of these suggestions, some of them I personally would not want to see implemented.

Timeline.

I rarely use the timeline - I much preferred Libronix where I could make my own timelines, specific to my needs. But as it stands now I know exactly what it means - this is the date provided by some Logos resource that has been tagged for dates. I'd not be keen on Logos trying to edit the dates or make them "meaningful" because I would no longer know what they are.

Overhaul the timeline

The timeline is constantly being updated as more resources are being coded for time. It will be updated for Catholic Encyclopedia etc.

Reading lists.

These are my baby ... others on the forums can confirm I've tried for years to get people to use this feature. Naturally the rule of thumb is "if the author is MJ Smith" the reading list is perfect. And, of course, I'm Catholic.[:)]. However, the purpose of these is for users to offer lists of resources - for general use, for specific groups, for themselves. I don't believe they should be limited to Logos resources nor do I think they should be denominationally "pure".

Color-code different sources.

Toggle an "auto-hide" on non-Catholic sources,

I would hate either of these features. Too many resources are arguably equally appropriate to multiple groups - especially when dealing with pre-Reformation material. There are also books I wish to include in my "Catholic" collections where the author is silly enough to think that they are Lutheran, Anglican, Orthodox, Coptic, or UCC.[;)] There are also Catholic authors whose views are greatly annoying to me (or at least non-helpful) that I don't wish to include in my Catholic collections. So I much prefer making denominational collections that meet my needs rather than trusting a company that confuses Raymond E. Brown with Raymond Brown.[:(]

My Guides all have denomination specific collections which I open and close at will - providing the same information that you are suggesting be conveyed by color and toggle.

Images.

Hymnal.

[Y]

Benjamin Baxter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538094#Comment_538094

Good points, generally, but these are going to be toggles.

A litany of rainbow colours will just become confusing and won't help those with poor eyesight much. Remember the pie graph of denominational resources? It was hard to distinguish between the colours of some groups.

Heh. Well, I'll just say that two -- or maybe three, counting the East --- colors should be sufficient. Rivers separating the various denominations are not so deep or wide as those separating them from Catholicism. In expression, non-Catholics are as different from Catholics as Catholics are from the Orthodox. That's setting aside the ideas for a moment --- just the words are confusing.

What would also be nice would be a way to self-color, or self-code all of these things. That way, the wound is always self-inflicted. That, or a mess of toggles.

Besides the confusion, this sounds like the idea of another poster to put "heresy labels" on Catholic works.

Well, it really is. I was just trying to be polite about it. Keep in mind, too, that my point in doing this is so that I can specifically purchase non-Catholic works for my own reading and use. I'd just like to buy a lot of non-Catholic resources and simultaneously know that I'm reading one when I am.

Why can't we stick with denominational tagging and let each reader take some personal responsibility for what they read?

"Search all" functionality, for one. This is the sort of thing which can, and should, be handled electronically.

--------------

I don't believe they should be limited to Logos resources nor do I think they should be denominationally "pure".

I didn't realize that they weren't limited to Logos resources! Huh.

So far as being denominationally "pure," --- well, it really comes down to this: If the goal of Verbum rebranding is about making Catholics feel at home, and not like guests tolerated as long as they have money, then it has to involve a sense of security and trust, especially if there are going to be any non-Catholic works.

Then again, maybe casual use simply won't bother buying alien resources for use, or buy at the levels where there aren't any.

Hrm.

I'll stick by the "self color" or "self code" resources solution. I know I personally would like a reminder other than "Oh, that's right --- the word 'Calvin' is in the title."

Benjamin Baxter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538113#Comment_538113

Ugh. These are supposed to indented in places. Any chance I could get some help with this?

Simon’s Brother

Let me first say I understand you are suggesting these changes for the Verbum branded interface, but I think some of your suggestions have potential implications or applications in both branded interfaces and would require Logos maintaining one data superset rather than separate data sets for both branded software interfaces. Hence some of my comments below are made with this mind set and not meant to imply I am against them, but simply that I think they are issues broader than the Verbum brand.

1. Timeline. Some stuff on the timeline regarding Church history seems questionable. Just as an example, I learned yesterday that the office of bishop was invented in the second century. (This is odd not just in a Catholic sense, I might add, and in a Catholic sense it is downright confusing, if not wrong, if not plain wrong.)

I'm not an expert in church history but can understand the interpretation of events could be influence by your faith / denominational belief system. I think having more resources with a catholic, and eastern orthodox for that matter, viewpoint could help balance that out.

2. Basic resources for basic features not included in Verbum. When I tried to look up the references for a different claim on the timeline, I find that it references a basic resource found as low as Logos Bronze (Baker Encyclopedia of the Bible.) Hrm. Well. I don't have Logos Bronze. I have Verbum Master. Presumably, the Timeline will be getting an overhaul when the Catholic Encylopedia (1910) comes out.

This can be an issue for many users regardless of their doctrinal beliefs - links to resources they don't own. It then becomes a question of do I choose to purchase that resource or not. I do get though for users with a catholic faith basis it could be a bigger problem in terms of which resources are included in base packages and which are not.

3. Overhaul the timeline, &c. when the Catholic Encyclopedia (1910) comes out. Also, include it in some low- or mid-level base packages.

I have not problem with links from this resource being added to the existing timeline when it comes out. I am not sure it would be practical for Logos to be running separate timelines for Logos and Verbum brands - and if so do they then start setting up separate timelines and branding based on denomination. Hence I think 'overhaul' is problem too strong a term to use in this instance. Addition of more catholic and for that matter eastern orthodox related links and events to the timeline I am fine with - these are all part of church and world history. Like any resource it is up to me to determine how I choose to own the resource and relate to the content.

4. Reading lists. Lots of these reading lists, being from and for a non-Catholic standpoint, are not very helpful. Not only do they reference works which, as per No. 2, are not in even the Master-level library, but even if these works were included they would contain claims not at all safe to examine without putting on our scrutiny hats.

Not all, but I would say a significant number of reading lists are user created. You can contribute to them by creating lists that have a catholic focus. There is nothing preventing you from doing so, other than your own limits on time etc. There was not a lot of catholic faith based material available when these lists first came out so it should not be unexpected to not find a lot of the sort of links you would like. It will take user contributions to change the status quo.

5. Color-code different sources. I have a fascination with Reformed theology for reasons which are not appropriate on these forums, so I bought a package of Calvinist resources. Is there a way I could, at a glance or at a toggle, tell which resources are not Catholic? I'd hate to start reading Contending for the Faith without the friendly reminder that I'm "at a friend's party" with that one. Color-coding non-Catholic sources would be a solution. Also, it would help winnow or prioritize non-Catholic reading lists.

This would be nice, as another posted suggested maybe the reverse would be easier and have catholic resources color-coded. This of course raises the question of what to do with Eastern Orthodox resources. For me currently I tag resources myself, often using community tags as a guide if I am not sure if a resource is catholic, eastern orthodox or what protestant denomination influences the resource. But if a system of color-coding could be implemented I think it would be beneficial for all and less work to maintain than tagging, for users at least.

6. Toggle an "auto-hide" on non-Catholic sources, toggling it on for casual reading and study and off for academic work.

I would think the reverse could also be asked for in Logos branded interface, but then where is the line drawn, can I get this for pentecostal or baptist or wesleyan resources. And then what about Calvin v Arminian resources ?

7. Images. I can appreciate that this is primarily study software, and that there are going to be low-resolution scans of public domain woodcuts in grainy black and grey. However, please look into making my Home Page not full of text, and my image searches not tons of clip art. The Catholic faith enjoys the greatest art there ever was and ever will be. Magnificat, for its part, does this sort of thing very well, as does Daniel Mitsui, and Corpus Christi Watershed. For that matter, the Art Renewal Center may be a good resource for a lot of classic religious and devotional art. Maybe you can even use Wikipedia, if you keep the images themselves free. Seriously --- send a photographer to Europe for six weeks and you'll get it. License photos and you'll do even better.

No matter our faith basis I'm sure we would all like better quality and a broad base of images available in Logos/Verbum. We are also all going to have different subsets of images that interest each of us more than others, but you've raise some good suggestions for improving Images which I think could be applicable to both the Verbum and Logos branded products - after all both faiths share a common history for a significant period of time.

8. Hymnal. The good folks at Corpus Christi Watershed have now put together two Hymnal-Missals using only public domain hymnody. Nothing against "A Mighty Fortress is Our God" but "Faith of our Fathers" seems like it deserves even more attention under a Verbum branding.

If you mean the Logos Hymnal it's been around forever and a day in Logos land, the presentation of it may have change in more recent times, I'm not sure if the content has been expanded off hand, but Logos Catholic Hymnal as a separate resource I think is a fair call to be included as part of Verbum base packages and available as a separate resource for those that want to add it to their Logos branded product.

Benjamin Baxter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538114#Comment_538114

Good points, generally, but these are going to be toggles.

What would also be nice would be a way to self-color, or self-code all of these things. That way, the wound is always self-inflicted. That, or a mess of toggles.

Besides the confusion, this sounds like the idea of another poster to put "heresy labels" on Catholic works.

Why can't we stick with denominational tagging and let each reader take some personal responsibility for what they read?

"Search all" functionality, for one. This is the sort of thing which can, and should, be handled electronically.

--------------

I don't believe they should be limited to Logos resources nor do I think they should be denominationally "pure".

I didn't realize that they weren't limited to Logos resources! Huh.

Then again, maybe casual use simply won't bother buying alien resources for use, or buy at the levels where there aren't any.

Hrm.

I'll stick by the "self color" or "self code" resources solution. I know I personally would like a reminder other than "Oh, that's right --- the word 'Calvin' is in the title."

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538116#Comment_538116

Your responses would be easier to follow if you did the following for quotations:

1. Be sure to use "reply" in the upper right not "quick reply" in the lower right.

2. Highlight the section you wish to quote.

3. Make sure your cursor in the message box is where you want the quote

4. Click on quote.

Hope this helps

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538116#Comment_538116

If the goal of Verbum rebranding is about making Catholics feel at home,

For myself, the major "not at home" issues are:

ties to the secular calendar rather than liturgical calendar so there is a constant updating of resources rather than of calendar.
inability to attach a note to multiple items e.g. making a note apply to 2 lectionary readings or the lectionary and the missal.
prayer list function not supporting Biblical references etc. ... or ideally even a liturgical prayer book option

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

[quote]Color-code different sources. ...

[quote]What would also be nice would be a way to self-color, or self-code all of these things. ...

+1 [Y] for enabling Logos users to choose a color for each resource. Colorful Tabs in Logos open resources plus Title Background color in search results would be awesome. Mock up example using yellow highlighter for St. Augustine's Confessions (tab) and Select Letters of St Jerome (search result):

Keep Smiling [:)]

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538144#Comment_538144

Logos already supports multi-colored panels by type. I presume colors are the issue.

Benjamin Baxter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538115#Comment_538115

Let me first say I understand you are suggesting these changes for the Verbum branded interface, but I think some of your suggestions have potential implications or applications in both branded interfaces and would require Logos maintaining one data superset rather than separate data sets for both branded software interfaces. Hence some of my comments below are made with this mind set and not meant to imply I am against them, but simply that I think they are issues broader than the Verbum brand.

I'm not an expert in church history but can understand the interpretation of events could be influence by your faith / denominational belief system. I think having more resources with a catholic, and eastern orthodox for that matter, viewpoint could help balance that out.

Strongs' 1985 ---

I would think the reverse could also be asked for in Logos branded interface, but then where is the line drawn, can I get this for pentecostal or baptist or wesleyan resources. And then what about Calvin v Arminian resources ?

Catholic / Non-Catholic / Orthodox are the three main modes of expression when it comes to Christian thought. Non-Catholic is more of a thing than each individual group of ideas is when it comes to practice. Except for certain groups of classically trained diehards --- in a good way, for what it is --- even within the same discipline there's a lot of interplay between radically incompatible modes of thought within what I am not calling Protestantism (for ecumenical reasons.)

It's the same, in a sense, regarding different spiritualities in Catholicism. The difference is that, for a Catholic, that's safe territory spiritually, whereas not Catholic is not. (Latter-day Merton aside.)

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538154#Comment_538154

Logos already supports multi-colored panels by type. I presume colors are the issue.

..

I honestly can not see any highlighting color in the above screenshot. I have a blind spot in dead center of my left eye and my right eye only sees color if I look directly at something. (No, I do not drive anymore. [H])

There are not enough uniquely distinguishable colours to address all denominational tags, even if I could see them. Since I can not it won't bother me for Logos to go ahead and do so.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538177#Comment_538177

I honestly can not see any highlighting color in the above screenshot.

Are you just referring to the tab? I see pink there.

Dan Francis

A New Catholic Commentary on Holy Scripture This commentary is one i own and it is very good. In most ways every much as good as the Jerome Biblical commentary.

The International Bible Commentary: A Catholic and Ecumenical Commentary for the Twenty-First Century Is a wonderful resource from Liturgical Press.

Speaking of Liturgical Press

New Collegeville Bible Commentary Series I believe December will be the release of the final three volumes to complete this... the NT is already consolidated into a one volume and would guess the entire set will get a one or two volume consolidation soon.

-dan

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538176#Comment_538176

(Latter-day Merton aside.)

Who has problems with latter-day Merton? The main objections to Merton I hear are, like objections to deMello, based on naive misunderstandings. Unfortunately, my Logos doesn't have the resources I'd need to support my contention - or yours for that matter.[:(]

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538192#Comment_538192

ST ... when you go to settings and change the background, it varies by type of resource as to which backgrounds change. In the example, the left one is a hebrew interlinear (from a denomination that George regards as heretics), while the right is a hebrew phrase analysis (approved creed and acceptable).

Which, regarding to another of the suggestions above, I decided to try out the timeline package from Another Software Co. Kind of interesting the way the pieces can be controlled, and user time events inserted. So in-between Libronix (of course the best) and ASC, customizable timelines appear to be do-able. Of course in Logos5, they're customizable by incrementally buying a whole lot of resources.

Benjamin Baxter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538192#Comment_538192

Who has problems with latter-day Merton? The main objections to Merton I hear are, like objections to deMello, based on naive misunderstandings. Unfortunately, my Logos doesn't have the resources I'd need to support my contention - or yours for that matter.

Where do naive misunderstandings come but uncautious self-study? As great as Logos is, it is still just a tool for self-study, and does not protect from uncaution. Time will tell if Merton is more like Tertullian or more like Origen in the way that he ended.

Anyways, are there any other suggestions for Verbum specifically? You seem like you might have specific ideas, yourself, Mr. Smith.

Benjamin Baxter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538230#Comment_538230

NEW IDEA:

Imagine how nifty it would be to be reading Psalm 117 and see a link to Dextera Domini, the Offertory from Holy Thursday.

Now that I think about it, if music is a thing with Logos, then there's a real opportunity to plug the propers with Verbum. These, more than hymns, are essentially Roman during Sunday worship. For the propers, there are tons, and I mean tons, of resources through the Church Music Association of America, pretty much all of it through a Creative Commons license. (Also, through Corpus Christi Watershed, which is pretty much my favorite non-profit.)

Between CCW and CMAA, all free stuff:

Musical settings of the psalms.
Propers, especially the Simple English Propers.
Public-domain hymns.
Weekly music settings.
Tons and tons and tons of other related stuff ...

It's funny --- with something like Verbum, I guess part of the question is going to be "How many other things besides doctrine are its focus?" I mean, you already have plenty of stuff in even the base packages which is not even doctrine but discipline.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538230#Comment_538230

Time will tell if Merton is more like Tertullian or more like Origen in the way that he ended.

It won't take time to show that Tertullian is the better of the two poor analogies. You seem determined to imply a leaning towards heresy which is precisely what I originally objected to.

Where do naive misunderstandings come but uncautious self-study?

I find they also come from listening to ignorant and/or bias "teachers" who themselves are often simply being reflexively protective of their own naive misunderstandings.

Mr. Smith.

Ms. Smith indicated in another of your treads (expanded here):

the ability to link notes to more than one passage ... lectionary based Bible study is much more of a web than Logos currently supports
support for liturgical calendars - current situation requires updating resources regularly to provide dates ... which is especially silly in supporting historical liturgical resources
sub-item for above: tagging historical hymns by liturgical date where appropriate; calendar devotionals based on liturgical calendar
the ability to include Bible references in prayer lists
ideally support for liturgical prayer
the inclusion of the deuterocanonicals in all translations which include them
web presentation of cross-reference with ability to collect into sets and subsets with related notes so that cross-references can be organized information rather than disorganized blobs with no ability to preserve one's work if you do try to classify them.
a mechanism for pulling diagrams into Logos - argument maps, concept maps, mind maps, graphic organizers/templates, tables - not compiling into PB's but adding index data and a link to documents from software designed to create these artifacts.
reinstating the topical, user-generated time lines of Libronix
addition of Jewish and liturgical-tradition churches' vocabulary to the LCV - sooner rather than later.

Benjamin Baxter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538232#Comment_538232

Ms. Smith

Whoopsie-daisy. [:$] Sorry about that ---

I find they also come from listening to ignorant and/or bias "teachers" who themselves are often simply being reflexively protective of their own naive misunderstandings.

I am happy to fess up to ignorance. Fixing my own ignorance is part of the reason to get Logos to begin with! That said, I do not point at myself for the origin of this opinion. I don't know who first thought it up, but I caught it from Catholic Answers, a generally trustworthy organization, whose article I read after a worrisome personal contact.

I won't say anything else about Merton, though --- I really don't want to derail the thread more than I already have. More in private message.

ideally support for liturgical prayer

[Y]

the inclusion of the deuterocanonicals in all translations which include them

I noticed that --- this must be a simple one, too. It was a little frustrating to find King James qualified by "1900."

Ken McGuire

Timeline. Some stuff on the timeline regarding Church history seems questionable. Just as an example, I learned yesterday that the office of bishop was invented in the second century. (This is odd not just in a Catholic sense, I might add, and in a Catholic sense it is downright confusing, if not wrong, if not plain wrong.)

Basic resources for basic features not included in Verbum. When I tried to look up the references for a different claim on the timeline, I find that it references a basic resource found as low as Logos Bronze (Baker Encyclopedia of the Bible.) Hrm. Well. I don't have Logos Bronze. I have Verbum Master.

Yes, it is frustrating when the Logos tools assume things that are, uh, highly debatable. Verbum base timelines and genealogies should be according to the official teaching, and links should largely be to resources in Verbum packages.

Reading lists. Lots of these reading lists, being from and for a non-Catholic standpoint, are not very helpful.

These are largely user written and are certainly user editable. Some are better than others, but the best way to rectify this is to add to them.

Re: your ideas about a toggle to hide or visually tag "non-Catholic" materials, I would discourage this. Admittedly I am outside the Church of Rome, but my understanding of Roman theology is that discussion and dialogue are key elements of it. That is why you can have a continually creative discussion with fathers that goes back for 2000 years. It is a pity whenever that discussion has to be stomped out by saying that what someone has to say is NOT even a voice in the whole (root of "Catholic"). Cutting this off wounds the church, as Ut Unum Sint even says. If the base packages are "orthodox", then the user should be able to recognize the uses and limitations of additional packages that that user had added.

Re: Art and Music - yes. This can and should be expanded. But this Lutheran was a bit shocked when I found "A Mighty Fortress" in the Liturgy of the Hours. There have been jokes that except for the last Sunday of October, that Roman Catholics sing it more than we Lutherans...

SDG

Ken McGuire

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538307#Comment_538307

But this Lutheran was a bit shocked when I found "A Mighty Fortress" in the Liturgy of the Hours. There have been jokes that except for the last Sunday of October, that Roman Catholics sing it more than we Lutherans.

As I recall it was written by a Catholic Augustinian monk[:P] We seem to lack any de-baptism rite so once you're in you're stuck.[:D]

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538294#Comment_538294

I don't know who first thought it up, but I caught it from Catholic Answers, a generally trustworthy organization,

I have a graduate degree in Buddhist studies. The most accurate way to think of it is that Buddhism is the most coherent and thorough attempt of man to find God without the benefit of revelation. Christianity is God's thorough attempt to find man and bring him back. Not to mention that Buddha and Ananda are official saints (Barlaam and Jehosaph) - which shows something about how long term the admiration for Gautama's single-minded search for God is. That's not to say he got it right - God's self-revelation is critical. But he did learn a great deal about human nature and how to bring one's behavior in line with one's ideals along the way. We may need to modify the vocabulary to move it into the contemporary Western culture but there's little theological conflict. Gautama Buddha was the ultimate skeptic.

Ken McGuire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538313#Comment_538313

But this Lutheran was a bit shocked when I found "A Mighty Fortress" in the Liturgy of the Hours. There have been jokes that except for the last Sunday of October, that Roman Catholics sing it more than we Lutherans.

As I recall it was written by a Catholic Augustinian monk We seem to lack any de-baptism rite so once you're in you're stuck.

As you may or may not be aware, a key aspect of Luther's thought was a criticism of those who said that our sin could "shipwreck" God's baptism - and this dispute was pretty close to the center of the dispute over penitential discipline which was the official cause of you cutting us off. As Jaroslav Pelikan wrote, the Lutheran Reformation was of "obedient rebels." And so the more Lutheran I become, the more Catholic I become as a consequence. Anyway - this is drifting off topic in a few ways...

Benjamin Baxter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538307#Comment_538307

Admittedly I am outside the Church of Rome, but my understanding of Roman theology is that discussion and dialogue are key elements of it. That is why you can have a continually creative discussion with fathers that goes back for 2000 years. It is a pity whenever that discussion has to be stomped out by saying that what someone has to say is NOT even a voice in the whole (root of "Catholic"). Cutting this off wounds the church, as Ut Unum Sint even says.

Well, ho-kay. There is recurring confusion, and you're not the only one, about my motives for suggesting the "scrutiny hat" features. I'm not really married to the particular suggestions I've made, but the principle is very defensible. Here's how I got there:

In various places with Verbum, there are referenced, and frequently, a mix of Catholic and and non-Catholic resources, with no easy way to distinguish the two. This causes a problem for casual study by those unfamiliar with various resources. There are basically three ends to this problem:

Status quo.
Use no non-Catholic resources.
Tell users about these various resources.

Basic problem with No. 1: Discourage casual study, and make careful study more difficult or frustrating for those who don't know what they're doing.

Logos wants to make a zillion dollars. Casual study is a broad market. Comparatively, how many MJ Smiths and Jimmy Akins and Scott Hahns are there?
Even careful study is frustrating if ignorant Catholics keep bumping into references to the Tyndale Bible Dictionary, &c. Few are ignorant of Catholic teaching like Catholics, especially these days. I am basically a member of this group. I'll talk to my Calvinist friends all day long, but for right now, when I study, I need to get a fuller understanding of what's going on with the faith.
Re-branding Verbum is supposed to make Catholics feel at home. It's one thing for Catholics visiting Logos to have to sort through a mix of evangelical-Reformed-Lutheran-&c. Having this stuff constantly referenced removes the feeling of being at home. Remember: Catholics don't regard Catholicism as a denomination among many. We regard it as the fullness of the faith, and everything else is missing something.

Basic problem with No. 2: Catholics should have non-Catholic sources, and Logos wants to sell stuff now.

Logos wants to make a zillion dollars. Logos seems to make at least, like, five dollars a month by selling resources. No sense starting the store from scratch, and that really shouldn't be on the table.
It will take tons of time. Meanwhile, No. 3 is at least a half-solution available sooner, without complete overhaul necessary.
Having non-Catholic sources really is necessary even for Catholics. As Mr. McGuire points out, though I would quibble with the particulars.

I suggest No. 3, somehow telling Verbum users about non-Catholic sources, is an appropriate response which dodges all of these problems.

Here's the real nut of it:

Without some title-flagging system, I'm going to have to strictly limit my Reformed purchases. If for no other reason, I need to do this because otherwise I have no way to easily keep track of which is which. And, for similar reasons
Without some automatic flagging system, I certainly won't purchase a Logos base package of any kind. That is, until such time that I am well-formed in the faith --- hah! That'll take some time.

I'm not every consumer. I'm just a guy who wants to use Logos to learn about the Catholic faith, and I have an evangelical duty to learn about the newer Christian faiths. If this is the guy who Verbum is marketed towards, and I think it is, and I think most average-level Catholics are in the same boat, then the principle really is sound.

Even if this is possible through some workaround, this should be, for Verbum:

Built-in, and
Automatic, and
Optional.

Benjamin Baxter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538316#Comment_538316

I have a graduate degree in Buddhist studies. The most accurate way to think of it is that Buddhism is the most coherent and thorough attempt of man to find God without the benefit of revelation.

For what's it's worth, I picked up the same opinion from an overindulgent diet of Chesterton and C.S. Lewis --- [;)]

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538320#Comment_538320

In various places with Verbum, there are referenced, and frequently, a mix of Catholic and and non-Catholic resources, with no easy way to distinguish the two. This causes a problem for casual study by those unfamiliar with various resources. There are basically three ends to this problem:

You are saying Verbum is dangerous for casual inquiry. I see several solutions for that:

Take personal responsibility for what one reads. This would include discovering what doctrine the authors cling to, Any critical study should start there.
Ask one's priest to approve all resources in one's library Then you can extend trust to Webster's 1828 Dictionary.
Rely on Logos (the creator of Verbum) to colour code or tag each resource correctly. (Why should you trust the judgement of a company that published Calvin, Tyndale Dictionary, Lutheran, Baptist, Pentecostal, SDA, or Eastern Orthodox materials in the first place?)

I guess it all depends on whether one is embarked on a quest of free inquiry or guided discovery.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538357#Comment_538357

Or do like me. I put a 'Evangelical' in the title of all the offending evangelical resources (I'm evangelical). Then Logos automatically warns me to be careful. Indeed I think it was Unix that quoted my Evangelical Standard Version (ESV).

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538320#Comment_538320

In various places with Verbum, there are referenced, and frequently, a mix of Catholic and and non-Catholic resources, with no easy way to distinguish the two.

I have a rather different viewpoint. The Logos datasets that support Bible Facts, morphology, timeline, clause diagrams, Bible sense lexicons etc. all show some bits of Evangelical bias. I don't expect, or want, Logos to make Catholic versions of the datasets although I occasionally want Logos to note alternative opinions. In general for atlases, Bible dictionaries etc. my concern is with the canon covered not the denominational tags. Why? Because for basic Bible reading, if the reading is honest various denominations should come to the same basic meaning and issues. I think that using the same tools helps reinforce the idea that the Bible itself should be the same to all of us. On the other hand, there is wide variation in theological interpretation - here I find that denominational collections and customized Guides using those collections is sufficient to remind me of what volumes are most likely to contain nonsense (vs. reasonable alternatives).

That is why I'm unconcerned with links to the Tyndale Bible Dictionary and prefer to do my own denominational labeling - especially since Catholic authors are perfectly capable of writing nonsense.

Benjamin Baxter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538357#Comment_538357

The Logos datasets that support Bible Facts, morphology, timeline, clause diagrams, Bible sense lexicons etc. all show some bits of Evangelical bias. I don't expect, or want, Logos to make Catholic versions of the datasets although I occasionally want Logos to note alternative opinions.

Agreed --- I don't expect or want that either. "Scrutiny hat" features are at some level friendly reminders that these do have some bits of evangelical bias and can't be read as uncritically. Way I read the situation, Logos is making Verbum for the sake of marketing themselves to users who already don't want to deal with sorting out evangelical bias.

Benjamin Baxter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538357#Comment_538357

Ask one's priest to approve all resources in one's library Then you can extend trust to Webster's 1828 Dictionary.

As a matter of fact, Catholics do enjoy imprimaturs, even --- especially --- for reference material. Sort of the same impulse which gives we Christians refutations of heresy in the Church Fathers, canons and anathemas in ecumenical councils, &c.

How about this: Distinguish which works have imprimaturs. Certainly this feature is desirable for Verbum, and I would argue does not go far enough. This would allow searching by works which are not just "Church Documents" but, simultaneously, works which are not but simultaneously still have some minimal protection against serious error.

There should also be a toggled feature which distinguishes these works in the title itself.

Again, this does not go far enough, but it does do a lot of what I'm getting at.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538382#Comment_538382

Logos is making Verbum for the sake of marketing themselves to users who already don't want to deal with sorting out evangelical bias.

From my time on the forums I thought it was to keep the Evangelicals away from Catholic cooties.

{intended as humor only - no theological import intended}

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538405#Comment_538405

How about this: Distinguish which works have imprimaturs. Certainly this feature is desirable for Verbum, and I would argue does not go far enough. This would allow searching by works which are not just "Church Documents" but, simultaneously, works which are not but simultaneously still have some minimal protection against serious error.

I do not think that is going far enough. There are some solidly Catholic works that lack imprimaturs.

Again, this does not go far enough, but it does do a lot of what I'm getting at.

I think the only way to satisfy your requirements is for Verbum to have its own separate website where only Catholic books get listed. With such quarantine the non-Catholic cooties you fear will be kept at bay. Then if any Catholic wants to see heretical teachings they can gaze at the resources on the Logos website in the middle of the night and maybe they won't get caught. [S][co]

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538530#Comment_538530

Benjamin Baxter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538530#Comment_538530

I do not think that is going far enough. There are some solidly Catholic works that lack imprimaturs.

I agree.

With such quarantine the non-Catholic cooties you fear will be kept at bay.

Did you miss the part where I purchased a Reformed package along with Verbum ...?

Catholics use theology as spiritual reading. Just the other day I was exhorted to read works of theology rather than apologetics, and to read them with docility and openness to the Spirit, if not uncritically.

Note, please, that this would be inappropriate while reading the Book of Mormon, &c.
Note also that, in a different sense, every Christian should read the Book of Mormon.

Do you see the issue?

Catholics simply use a different mode of thought when reading non-Catholic works, and they should read non-Catholic works.

Verbum, if it is really going to be marketed towards Catholics, should be molded with the realization that not all sources are read by Catholics the same way, even at the level of high theology. It is a series of Catholic-specific base packages, and Logos should begin with that as a foundational assumption.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538696#Comment_538696

Catholics use theology as spiritual reading. Just the other day I was exhorted to read works of theology rather than apologetics, and to read them with docility and openness to the Spirit, if not uncritically.

Note, please, that this would be inappropriate while reading the Book of Mormon, &c.

Note also that, in a different sense, every Christian should read the Book of Mormon.

Do you see the issue?

Yes. The issue is how one reads the resources.

Apparently Catholics believe Augustine and Papal encyclicals are inspired in addition to the Bible.
Mormons believe their prophet (president) speaks with authority equal with their Book of Mormon and the Bible.
Seventh Day Adventists have Ellen G. White.
Pentecostals have prophetic utterances and words of knowledge
Evangelicals have their Doctors of Divinity and respected theologians..
Some have nothing more than the Bible

When I read resources from my Logos library warning labels would be useless because every book in my library (except the Bible ) is subject to error and heresy.. The authors may be lovers of God but they are still fallible men, mere men.The issue is clear to see.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538696#Comment_538696

Catholics use theology as spiritual reading. Just the other day I was exhorted to read works of theology rather than apologetics, and to read them with docility and openness to the Spirit, if not uncritically.

I've never hear a priest, nun or theological professor give such odd advice. Reading theology yes - uncritically? never. Yes, there are authors that one can read with more confidence than others but your wording leads to misunderstandings such as

Apparently Catholics believe Augustine and Papal encyclicals are inspired in addition to the Bible.

Now, I know ST knows better - he's just having fun. And it is true that a number of denominations, including Catholics, have church documents that are read as being more reliable than books by the average Joe. And it is true that a number of denominations, including Catholics, consider the history of interpretation of a passage when evaluating competing possible interpretations.

=====

I think that Christians of many denominations use theology as spiritual reading and read authors with whom they generally agree with a more relaxed attitude than those with whom they generally disagree. I don't see this as a denominational difference. Because Catholics are used to more diversity of theology within the Church than most of the small American based denominations, I tend to think denominational labels are of less importance to us than some other groups. A standard base set of liturgical theology texts for a Catholic on a parish liturgy committee includes Russian Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran (ELCA), optional UCC, and Catholic resources. And I mean liturgical theology not history, pragmatics etc.

Ken McGuire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538763#Comment_538763

Catholics use theology as spiritual reading. Just the other day I was exhorted to read works of theology rather than apologetics, and to read them with docility and openness to the Spirit, if not uncritically.

I've never hear a priest, nun or theological professor give such odd advice. Reading theology yes - uncritically? never. Yes, there are authors that one can read with more confidence than others but your wording leads to misunderstandings such as

I think you may have misread Mr. Baxter - at least I read him differently. I did not think his statement "if not uncritically" was saying he was reading it uncritically - but rather that there something to reading beyond just a critical, academic reading of theology. It is engaging to read Augustine, even if you are quite skeptical about his neoplatonism, for example. In fact, in reading a great many of the fathers (and the too few mothers who have left literary remains) is like this. You may not always agree in everything, but your recognize them as family - and can learn from them. And at times it is spiritually useful to let it flow instead of getting out the fallacy hound... Often I have found more there when I let this happen - and my thinking I think grows in the process.

Lutheran (ELCA)

We LCMS can be a bit prickly to outsiders - sometimes quite unfortunately. But there is good stuff from us too...

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538780#Comment_538780

I think you may have misread Mr. Baxter - at least I read him differently. I did not think his statement "if not uncritically" was saying he was reading it uncritically - but rather that there something to reading beyond just a critical, academic reading of theology

You may well be right - it makes more sense.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538763#Comment_538763

Now, I know ST knows better - he's just having fun.

You got me. [:P]

I just don't understand why anyone would want to limit their library. It is my understanding the Vatican has an extremely expansive library.

I also find it unimaginable that someone would embark on a study without a critical look at the author's background. Whether I am reading Cardinal John Henry Newman, Gail A. Riplinger, Dr. John F. MacArthur, or Walter Veith, I am keenly aware of the author's position. It is the only prudent way to research the subject at hand. For that matter, I double check what my pastor says from the pulpit to see if it "jives" with scripture.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538780#Comment_538780

I did not think his statement "if not uncritically" was saying he was reading it uncritically - but rather that there something to reading beyond just a critical, academic reading of theology.

I agree. That is why I buy things like The Catholic Spirituality Collection and The Thomas Merton Collection. It is what first intrigued me about Erasmus.

Benjamin Baxter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538795#Comment_538795

MJ: I had this in mind, from This Tremendous Lover, p. 114, regarding the discipline of spiritual reading:

[quote]We must, of course, read in a spirit of faith. That does not mean we are not to read critically, or that we have to accept every statement that every writer makes, or to believe that every advice or direction given applies to our own particular case. On the contrary, one should only follow such advice with caution and prudence, taking frequent counsel of some wise priest or other guide. But we must believe that God will speak to us in our reading, and when He does speak, we must be ready to listen to Him and heed His words. In fact, if one asks in what dispositions should one read, the answer is: "with faith, hope, charity, humility, and submission to God's will."

Emphases added. This allows for critical reading in a sense, but it is a different sort of critical lens than is used while reading the Institutes.

This book goes on to describe two types of spiritual reading: One for "expositions of doctrine, rather than apologetical arguments." The other regards meditation and mental prayer. In neither case are non-Catholic works appropriate.

Again, all I mean at this point is that non-Catholic works, where included on Catholic software, should be somehow visibly delineated.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538872#Comment_538872

Again, all I mean at this point is that non-Catholic works, where included on Catholic software, should be somehow visibly delineated.

Yes, if you want a guided discovery instead of free inquiry.

Benjamin Baxter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538872#Comment_538872

More suggestions, some along the lines of MJ Smith's ideas earlier in the thread or as mentioned in other threads:

Standard content:

Monthly intentions of the Holy Father displayed in home feed.
Particular rites should also be included.
NAB/local English translation and all three Roman missals should be standard, and for liturgical use the appropriate translation of scripture should be a "forced" default.

Features:

Export selected hours to .epub, &c.
Generally, Universalis-like features for the Liturgy of the Hours.
Daily Missals for Extraordinary and Ordinary forms fully integrated.

Really, daily liturgical readings should be more than a blip in of a sidebar. Antiphons, collects, readings, &c. should all appear in the main feed on the home page.

Sources:

This Tremendous Lover
Humility of Heart
Knox translation of the Vulgate (I know I keep saying this, and it's for a reason.)
Apologetics along these lines, especially Thomas More and Hilaire Belloc.

Liturgical collection: Various works by

Lazlo Dobszay,
Adrian Fortescue,
Alcuin Reid,
Klaus Gamber,
Annibale Bugnini,
Josef Jungmann,
Dom Gregory Dix,
Fr. Aidan Nichols,
Romano Guardini
Dom Prosper Guéranger
Also: The Banished Heart,
Why Catholics Can't Sing,
Spirit of the Liturgy (the original and not just the one by Ratzinger)
The Musical Shape of the Liturgy by Dr. William Mahrt

Benjamin Baxter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538874#Comment_538874

Yes, if you want a guided discovery instead of free inquiry.

Free inquiry: You get what you pay for. [:P]

Benjamin Baxter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538878#Comment_538878

Other essential Catholic authors for Verbum, most of them obvious:

Frank Sheed, esp. Theology and Sanity
Fulton Sheen
Peter Kreeft
Frank Chacon's series of apologetics books
Louis Bouyer, esp. The Spirit and Forms of Protestantism
Fr. Robert Barron, esp. Catholicism
Fr. Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange, esp. Predestination
Ed Feser, esp. Aquinas: A Beginner's Guide
Hans Urs von Balthasar
Dietrich von Hildebrand
&c.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538872#Comment_538872

MJ: I had this in mind, from This Tremendous Lover, p. 114, regarding the discipline of spiritual reading:

[quote]We must, of course, read in a spirit of faith. That does not mean we are not to read critically, or that we have to accept every statement that every writer makes, or to believe that every advice or direction given applies to our own particular case. On the contrary, one should only follow such advice with caution and prudence, taking frequent counsel of some wise priest or other guide. But we must believe that God will speak to us in our reading, and when He does speak, we must be ready to listen to Him and heed His words. In fact, if one asks in what dispositions should one read, the answer is: "with faith, hope, charity, humility, and submission to God's will."

This I strongly agree with; it is not what I had read you to mean. However, I would not consider this advice to be particular to Catholics nor would I expect the spiritual reading approached in this manner to be exclusively Catholic. At least that is not my experience in spiritual direction - individual or communal. But understanding what you intended, your suggestion is understandable - although not a feature I'd use much.

Some recent authors I'd add to your list:

Hugo Rahner
Karl Rahner
Simon Tugwell
Timothy Radcliffe
Tielhard de Chardin
Josef Pieper
Karl Adams
George Mahoney (Catholic who converted to Orthodox)
Jaroslav Pelikan (Lutheran who converted to Orthodox)
Robert C. Bondi (non-Catholic)
Alexander Schmemann (Orthodox)
Leonardo Boff
Louis Bouyer (edit: I see this on your list - oops)
Dag Hammarskjöld (non-Catholic)
Timothy Ware (Orthodox)
John Meyendorff (Orthodox)
Evelyn Underhill (Anglo-Catholic)
Dom Aelred Graham
William Johnston
Cynthia Bourgeault
Abraham Joshua Heschel (Jewish)
Gordon W. Lathrop (Lutheran)

Benjamin Baxter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/538889#Comment_538889

Your comments are fair. I'm sorry I've taken so long to make it clear. Oy ...