my notes and privacy
I opened up logos on my android this morning and was surprised to see the notes from my pc. I did not do anything to transfer the notes from one device to another so they must have been uploaded to logos somehow without my awareness. are my notes private? how do I control what gets uploaded? are my notes encrypted on your server? what else it's being uploaded?
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Stephen, your notes, highlights, reading plans, favourites. That is all that I am aware of for now.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Stephen:
I've been fighting this battle for years -- and I've been laughed at over it for years. People who don't understand the power of metadata and big data analytics just say, "I have nothing to hide," while others say, "this is too convenient to bother putting in a switch to turn it off." I don't use notes in Logos for this very reason. Instead, I use OneNote, which allows me to encrypt specific notebooks or sections, and to decide what gets uploaded to a server and what doesn't. Beyond this, it's also a real note taking package. It's not as convenient, perhaps, but it's a lot richer, and it affords me privacy.
Logos is never going to take this issue seriously, because, "these are Bible study notes, you shouldn't be putting information in Logos that you want to hide."
Russ
P.S. "If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide," is one of those big lies that's told so often that many people don't even stop to reflect on it any longer. It's also the best friend of Facebook, Google, and many other companies that sell data for a living. The point of big data, for those who don't get it, isn't just to know something about you. It's to know enough about you to change your behavior and beliefs in specific ways, starting with what and how much you buy, but, in the case of Google and many others, continuing on to your political beliefs, etc. Read Nudge, if you don't get this concept.
If the service is free, you are the product.
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Russ White said:
Stephen:
I've been fighting this battle for years -- and I've been laughed at over it for years. People who don't understand the power of metadata and big data analytics just say, "I have nothing to hide," while others say, "this is too convenient to bother putting in a switch to turn it off." I don't use notes in Logos for this very reason. Instead, I use OneNote, which allows me to encrypt specific notebooks or sections, and to decide what gets uploaded to a server and what doesn't. Beyond this, it's also a real note taking package. It's not as convenient, perhaps, but it's a lot richer, and it affords me privacy.
Logos is never going to take this issue seriously, because, "these are Bible study notes, you shouldn't be putting information in Logos that you want to hide."
Russ
P.S. "If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to hide," is one of those big lies that's told so often that many people don't even stop to reflect on it any longer. It's also the best friend of Facebook, Google, and many other companies that sell data for a living. The point of big data, for those who don't get it, isn't just to know something about you. It's to know enough about you to change your behavior and beliefs in specific ways, starting with what and how much you buy, but, in the case of Google and many others, continuing on to your political beliefs, etc. Read Nudge, if you don't get this concept.
If the service is free, you are the product.
I too have been complaining about this "feature," and I too have been getting the same response that Russ gets.
Right now you have two options on your PC. The use internet option on your PC can be set to yes or no. If the option is set to "yes," everything (and I mean everything) that you do gets uploaded to the cloud. The items that Lynden stated as well as your layouts, your collections, your tags, your... If you set the switch to "no," not only do you not upload any information to the cloud, you cannot download any updates or new books that you have purchased.
Is our items private? According to Bob, they are, but they are less secure than your credit card information is with Target (to use as an example). (Bob stated, if I remember correctly, that they do not use the most secure processes that our banks and others use for financial transactions).
I hope our posts answers your questions.
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Someone on the forums mentioned that they block some parts of Logos from going to the cloud. Unfortunately, if you use Logos on more than one computer, the information that is not uploaded will not be synced.
Zonealarm is one of those firewalls that gives the option to block certain files. Don't know if it will give the option to choose which parts of the Logos gets synced.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Lynden Williams said:
Unfortunately, if you use Logos on more than one computer, the information that is not uploaded will not be synced.
I think (I hope) this is obvious... :-) The point Bob has made to me in the past is that people won't find this obvious, and it will cost them in tech support calls explaining that if you choose not to upload certain things, those things won't synchronize between your devices -- as well as dealing with conflicts when people turn synchronization on and off, etc.
IMHO, dealing with conflict resolution and allowing different things to be synchronized from different systems are all just a part of building a solid note taking package -- OneNote has all of this built in, as well as a lot of other richness. These, and a number of other reasons, are why I consistently argue for better integration with outside notes packages, rather than "better notes in Logos." Let's let Logos do what Logos does --search and resources-- and let notes packages do what notes packages do best --organize and manage notes. With a stronger personal books offering, I could easily convert my notes into Logos books which would then be synchronized across different devices, giving me the best of both worlds.
For right now, I have to search in two places to find stuff I'm looking for --which really isn't that big of a deal, since I normally search in three or four, anyway -- PDF files on a local drive, the Internet, OneNote, and Logos.
Russ
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There is the old adage of "Don't put anything on a computer, or the internet that you don't want the whole world to see"
Which I guess is an easy business model, but yielding to it does sacrifice about 1.35 billion potential customer's in China. (and the 76 million in Iran...)
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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I agree with Russ 100%.
That's why I say put your notes somewhere else. Period.
Google couldn't resist trolling emails; Logos couldn't resist trolling highlights and soon .... what? The first rule in a Christian business is 'everyone else is doing it'.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
The first rule in a Christian business is 'everyone else is doing it'.
If that was true then large secular publishing houses would be buying up Christian publishers, and mega church pastors would be writing books about sex, and all contemporary Christian music would sound like a cheap rip-off of pop music...
"As any translator will attest, a literal translation is no translation at all."
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Stephen A Williams said:
I opened up logos on my android this morning and was surprised to see the notes from my pc. I did not do anything to transfer the notes from one device to another so they must have been uploaded to logos somehow without my awareness. ... what else it's being uploaded?
This is from the EULA (End User Licence Agreement) for Logos 4 and 5:
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ONLINE BACKUP
Data you enter into the Software, including notes, settings, preferences, and documents, will be automatically backed up to Logos.com over the Internet, and downloaded to other instances of the Software logged in using your email and password. This automatic synchronization helps you access your content on multiple computers and may be used to let you use your own data online. Logos will not share your data without your permission, but may examine it programmatically for anonymous statistical purposes or in order to provide technical support.
DO NOT STORE HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION IN THE SOFTWARE.
The Software is designed for consumer reference and study purposes, and while we will take all precautions to protect your data, we cannot ensure the level of security you would expect from online banking or other highly secure services.You are responsible to keep the password associated with your Logos.com login private. It is the primary means of security for data synchronized through the Software.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Most folks don't bother reading EULA's, I know, but it is still our responsibility to do so. If you have privacy concerns, I urge you to read EULA's from any software you install.
Stephen A Williams said:are my notes private? ... are my notes encrypted on your server?
Notes are not shared with others, unless you choose to do so. I don't know if notes are encrypted or not. The likelihood of someone snooping around your notes are quite remote. Still, I'd recommend that you follow Logos' advice and not put anything in a note that needs to remain confidential.
For that matter, I would not put anything on my computer that I wanted to remain confidential, unless it was in a encrypted file with a strong passkey.
Stephen A Williams said:how do I control what gets uploaded?
Logos has taken an "all or nothing" approach to this. Your options in program settings that govern this is: Use Internet [YES NO]. Others have already explained alternatives for note taking outside of Logos.
Final note: the concerns raised in this thread have been discussed many, many times before. I'm not personally concerned with Logos' practice here, nor about anyone who might be perusing these forums, or my Facebook account, etc. Whether that makes me foolish, or others paranoid is a debate that we are not likely to resolve. Having expressed our opinions on this, let's please not have that debate again.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Richard DeRuiter said:
DO NOT STORE HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION IN THE SOFTWARE.
The problem here is two fold.
The first -- it doesn't matter whether it's "highly confidential" or not. What matters is it's my data, not Logos'. Since Logos doesn't give me the option of choosing what I give to them, and what I don't -- and because I have absolutely no assurance what my data might be used for in some future incarnation of the company -- I choose not to give them any of my information (or as little of it as I can give them and have a functional piece of software).
The second -- what do you consider "highly confidential?"
Richard DeRuiter said:I'm not personally concerned with Logos' practice here, nor about anyone who might be perusing these forums, or my Facebook account, etc. Whether that makes me foolish, or others paranoid is a debate that we are not likely to resolve. Having expressed our opinions on this, let's please not have that debate again.
Just another variant of the "if you don't do anything wrong, you don't have anything to hide," argument -- an argument that has been proven fallacious in security circles many, many times. Read Bruce Schneier on the topic, for instance -- while I don't agree with his atheistic worldview, he shreds this line of thinking. Sorry, but we live in a digital world. It's time for Christians to take not only our privacy seriously, but also the privacy of those we serve.
My experience in big data analytics tells me that companies are making millions off information you don't consider confidential. How are they making these millions? Voyeurism doesn't pay, but changing behavior and beliefs does. Bottom line: Google and Facebook make money by changing your behavior and beliefs, not by "connecting you to your friends." They think what you ate for dinner is important enough to pay for, whether or not you think it's important enough to sell (or protect).
Finally, there is this:
Richard DeRuiter said:The likelihood of someone snooping around your notes are quite remote.
Sorry, but I don't agree. Logos, like all companies, will eventually understand the value of the notes you take, and mine those notes for whatever they are worth. It's not a matter of if, but rather when, and for what.
Russ
P.S. -- in the interest of not starting another huge war, I'm going to bow out of this discussion. I think those who refuse to protect their data are foolish, but they will be the ones to live with the consequences, not me. Convenience comes at a cost, even if that cost is deferred to the future, or onto the next generation.
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Russ White said:Richard DeRuiter said:
DO NOT STORE HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION IN THE SOFTWARE.
The problem here is two fold.
The first -- what do you consider "highly confidential?"
The OP asked what Logos synced. I copied the EULA on that and included this portion of the EULA. That's all. If you have a beef, take it up with Logos (which I know you have in the past).
Russ White said:Just another variant of the "if you don't do anything wrong, you don't have anything to hide," argument...
Maybe. I really don't want to have this debate again. Either my line of thinking is foolish, or yours is paranoid, or we're both on some sort of continuum between the two. Can we leave it at that? If you want to start a thread about privacy and Logos elsewhere (in this forum or in the suggestions forum), feel free to do so.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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Russ White said:
it's my data
All who believed were together and had all things in common;
The Holy Bible: New Revised Standard Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers, 1989), Ac 2:44.Sorry [:)] I've been wanting to use this response for months. [:#]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ:
I really want to drop out of this thread, but your bringing theology into it forces me to reply.
MJ. Smith said:All who believed were together and had all things in common;
This is a really bad reading of that verse. When you find the one that says, "and they freely shared the location of every Christian meeting with the Roman authorities, refusing to retreat into the catacombs or flee from persecution, and brought in government officials from Rome to manage the distribution of their alms," please let me know.
Russ
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Sorry you took my joke as theology. The post does not reflect how I would present a theological position so I failed to recognize that it would be taken as such by some.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Thanks. I try to read the EULA, but have to admit I missed the implications here.
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You did more than most.Stephen A Williams said:Thanks. I try to read the EULA
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As an expriment, I deleted all my notes on the pc, but I still see note markers on the android. How long before the server "backup" really deletes the the notes? The online backup section on the EULA seems to not cover this important privacy aspect.
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Stephen A Williams said:
How long before the server "backup" really deletes the the notes? The online backup section on the EULA seems to not cover this important privacy aspect.
There is no way to know. At users' request, Logos has made it possible to recover accidentally deleted documents - which requires some retention cycle.. The standard and disaster recovery protocols for the various Logos' server/leased server/insurance server are not available to users nor determinable by user testing ... unless your testing includes floods, fires and earthquakes at carefully selected (and unknown) sites).
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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here is an idea. On the "undelete documents" web form, add an action to delete a document. The server side script would just delete it's copy of the backed up document.
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It is not that simple. Not only do you see the files online, there are also copies that you do not see online.Stephen A Williams said:here is an idea. On the "undelete documents" web form, add an action to delete a document. The server side script would just delete it's copy of the backed up document.
I do not know what Logos does, but If Logos does what in customary when it comes to backing up user's data; Backups are made nightly, and they are kept for x amount of days. Backups are made on the weekend, and they are kept for x amount of weeks. Backups are made at the end of the month, and they are kept for x amount of months. And backups are made at the end of the year, and they are kept for x amount of years.
This is why they say data can never be deleted once it makes it to the clouds.
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Well, I just realized when I upgraded from Logos 3.0, not only were all my notes uploaded to the Logos server, but my prayer list as well.
I don't know about other people, but I feel this information is more valuable than a stupid credit card, or social security numbers, or a lot of other information people work so hard to steal.
the EUAL says the backups " including notes, settings, preferences, and documents", and I guess it turns out the prayer list is a document. I think a person could sue and win over the difference between a list and a document, because the EULA leads one to believe this is just "reference" data as one of the earlier persons commented.
I am finished commenting here.
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No need to finish commenting. Logos has relaxed the older limit on how often a forum member can be frustrated with Logos. It's in the EULA also. Along with the proviso that they can use your credit card if and when they need it to meet payroll.
Well, you DID sign the EULA.
Actually the whole concept of a EULA is similar to the Israelites. They signed a EULA and eventually found themselves parked on the Tigress river wondering 'what happened?'
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I'm thinking more appropriate is Faust's pact with the devil.
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Stephen A Williams said:
a person could sue and win over the difference between a list and a document
I suspect that a court would rule that a list is simply a type of document. Sorry if that is not your usage. Logos usage is clear - everything controlled by the documents tab is a document. I understand why you would not want your prayer lists uploaded. For users in England there were legal concerns on this matter. Logos does pay attention to security and I can see no reason for Logos' users' data to become of sufficient interest to hackers as to pose and actual rather than potential threat.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I'd say the paper tiger has a hole right through his paper heart. It's ok to take if it doesn't have value.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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With all the security confers and mining of data maybe we should stop posting in these forms and unplug everything from the internet just to be safe [:O]
I work in the IT filed and know about security. While Google and Facebook do use you data to make money Logos does not use your data and the EULA pretty clearly states they cannot share your data without your consent. Whenever you put something online there is always risk, it comes down to how much risk are you willing to accept. I am not concerned about my notes or prayer lists being in Logos. I don't put specific personal information in my list. It's more of a prompt so I know what to pray for. yes there is a risk having it online but while Target just had a major security breach hackers are not going to spend the time hacking Logos to get at your notes. Theres no monetary value so no incentive to hack logos notes.
Bottom line is that if your concerned about your data being online don't put it online. Microsofts servers are a much bigger target than Logos. There are many cloud/online services and they all have some risk involved in using them so make a decision for yourself.
I use Logos sync feature to keep all my devices synced with the same data so I don't have to go back to my computer. I consider it a convince to have this. I don't want to be carrying around piles of notebooks or have to search them separately. I Like the sync functionality of Logos. If you don't want your notes/prayer lists to be synced then don't use the feature.
These are relatively new features and hope that one day I can control the syncing of lists and documents individually but for right now you can't.
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Thank you, Stephen for the sane and rational words! *smile* Peace and Joy for 2014 ........ and Forever, eh?!
Philippians 4: 4 Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, Rejoice. 5 Let your reasonableness be known to everyone. The Lord is at hand..........
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