Ok, Teach me. Greek words translated by specific english words.
I have always been interested in the reasons for translating doulos as servant/bond servant rather than salve in the NT. I know I can do a BWS on doulos, but I am also trying to learn different ways to do things in L4. So, how do I create a bible search for the following:
Every occurrence where the lemma doulos is translated as something other than slave.
Comments
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Like you said a BWS may be the easiest. But if you wanted to analyze various ways to translate across a subset of your Bibles (or even all your Bibles) you could follow the example in this vid I just made: http://screencast.com/t/NTc5NjNkM2
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
Terry,
There is a way to say:
doulos ANDNOT slave
Hang on a few minutes and I'll check..
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Jacob Hantla said:
Like you said a BWS may be the easiest. But if you wanted to analyze various ways to translate across a subset of your Bibles (or even all your Bibles) you could follow the example in this vid I just made: http://screencast.com/t/NTc5NjNkM2
Hi Jacob,
Looks like a good video but I don't get any sound - and I tried on two computers, Is there something that needs to be done for me to hear it? The audio icon is on, I clicked off then on to try that, and I turned my speakers all the way up.
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Terry,
This seemed to work:
δοῦλος NOTEQUALS servant
I also tried this and it worked
<GreekStrongs = Strong’s Greek #1401> ANDNOT servant
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Sorry no sound. I was merely showing how to sort search analysis by result across a multitude of translations. This is a good way to sort a large amount of search results. I should have narrated but my daughter was asleep.
Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org0 -
Terry Poperszky said:
I have always been interested in the reasons for translating doulos as servant/bond servant rather than salve in the NT. I know I can do a BWS on doulos, but I am also trying to learn different ways to do things in L4. So, how do I create a bible search for the following:
Every occurrence where the lemma doulos is translated as something other than slave.
Terry
I don't know that Logos will give the reason why many (not all) translations use servant for doulos. It's probably a question for the translators - 'servant' waters down and misses the significance of doulos. Maybe it's more 'comfortable' for some to read that a christian is a servant rather than a slave?
Liddell & Scott, BDAG and Louw-Nida all give the basic meaning of doulos as slave. The Theological Lexicon of the NT says "It is wrong to translate doulos as “servant,” so obscuring its precise signification in the language of the first century ... The word slave refers above all to a legal status, that of an object of property (Latin res mancipi). To be a slave is to be attached to a master (Greek despotēs; Matt 13:27; Luke 14:21; 1 Tim 6:1; Titus 2:9) by a link of subjection—you are the slave of that which dominates you (2 Pet 2:19; cf. Rom 9:12)..." and so forth.
Andy
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Andy Bell said:
I don't know that Logos will give the reason why many (not all) translations use servant for doulos. It's probably a question for the translators - 'servant' waters down and misses the significance of doulos. Maybe it's more 'comfortable' for some to read that a christian is a servant rather than a slave?
Andy, while Logos won't tell me, by examining how the translator's handled certain passages, it does allow me to infer their reasoning. For instance, I have noticed that many translations use servant where the context is good, and slave where the context is bad. In reality, I was also using it as a means to learn L4. BWS is extremely powerful and gives me more than I want. Can I wade through it? Sure, but learning how to get exactly what I want is better in the long run. I never was a power user with L3, I was never comfortable with it's format. Now that L4 is out, I am taking the time to learn to properly utilize it.
Jacob and Robert, thanks for the lesson. I am going to play with it for a while and see where it takes me.
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Jacob Hantla said:
But if you wanted to analyze various ways to translate across a subset of your Bibles (or even all your Bibles) you could follow the example in this vid I just made: http://screencast.com/t/NTc5NjNkM2
Jacob, I like the result, but can you explain the parameters in your search string?
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Terry,
What you see in Jacob's video is some "behind the scenes" Logos slight of hand...
All Jacob typed in to the search box was:
lemma:doulos
He typed it (im assuming) in the Morph search box.
What happened is that when he typed lemma: and then started the word doulos Logos gave him options on what words to pick....doulos was one of them.
Then he clicked the "bible search" box and did his search.
YOU can just go to:
bible search and type g:
and when you start typing your word Logos will populate the box with the right word
then just push go.....
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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a bible word study accomplishes the same thing right?
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Robert Pavich said:
a bible word study accomplishes the same thing right?
Pretty much, except that doing the morph search gives me a digital result (actual numbers) versus an analog (circle). I haven't played much with the morph searches, primarily because my original language skills are soooo rusty. I am really looking forward to the new video series that Logos is preparing, hoping that it will help me brush a little iron oxide off of those skills. Thanks for the explanation. Using the NOTEQUALS syntax that you gave me before and combining it with the morph search should allow me to get pretty close to where I want to be on this topic. Now, if Logos would just fix L4.0a so that it doesn't crash on BWS when the prepositional tab is open and the lemma is δουλος I will be happy.
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Terry,
this is something to consider:
when you use the analysis tool, you get multiple hits....arggg...because of the article being present...but if you "sort by lemma" first...then you can see immediately which are which...
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Terry,
I know this is stating the obvious, but one thing the Lord has been leading me towards is understanding the continuity of the hebraic/Jewish concepts between the OT and the NT. Logos has some great resources on this, but in general I would suggest that we look at the OT concept of "servant of the Lord" and then determine when/if the NT writers are alluding to this concept. My gut is that it is almost all the time. I noticed there are entries for most of the Bible Dictionaries/encyclopedias for this topic.
Also one can gain some insight by analyzing the coupling between doulos in the LXX and the OT words/concepts.
My sense is that this discussion is related to the level of commitment to the Lord one sees the NT teaching and I think that is total. Our concept of 'slave' seems to conote more of the total life commitment often for which doulos is often used.
Paul
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Paul Buckhiester said:
Also one can gain some insight by analyzing the coupling between doulos in the LXX and the OT words/concepts.
Thanks Paul, I had forgotten this thread even existed. As you might have noticed from my more recent threads on the subject this has been a matter of some focus for me over quite a long period of time. My initial reaction is that the translators may have been making choices based on the negative connotation that slavery carries, especially in the USA. But as I have done more research on line and as well as conversations that have migrated off line, I am coming to believe that it is more than just that. Slavery as it references our relationship to God is a metaphor (or an allegory, I can never remember which does what [;)]) it is meant to convey a spiritual truth about our relationship with Jesus and the slave/bondslave/servant translations are often an attempt to portray an specific aspect of that truth.
Personally, I find great comfort in the thought of being owned my God. But some of my brothers of color that I worship with are less than enamored with that aspect.
Once again thanks for the insight, I am putting it on the list of things to look at.
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Terry,
Certainly former slaves might think this term offensive, but that is the exact intent. In fact those who find it most offensive are actually who understand it best!
After all, we are all former slaves. The question is not whether we are slaves, who is our Master. When Jesus is our Master, slavehood (is that a word?) is a privilege.
Paul
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