Prophacy fullfilled/law of probabilities/ proving scripture
Comments
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MJ. Smith said:
No one has mentioned that one obstacle for Jews is that they consider a different set of passages as prophetic than the Christians - see Why the Jews Rejected Jesus: The Turning Point in Western History by David Klinghoffer. You need to be able to show that a prophecy was considered a prophecy related to the Messiah before it was fulfilled or you fall into the trap George points out...
Good point!
חַפְּשׂוּ בַּתּוֹרָה הֵיטֵב וְאַל תִּסְתַּמְּכוּ עַל דְּבָרַי
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BKMitchell said:MJ. Smith said:
No one has mentioned that one obstacle for Jews is that they consider a different set of passages as prophetic than the Christians - see Why the Jews Rejected Jesus: The Turning Point in Western History by David Klinghoffer. You need to be able to show that a prophecy was considered a prophecy related to the Messiah before it was fulfilled or you fall into the trap George points out...
Good point!
Not at all. Any mind that can swallow this camel (BabTalmud Sanhedrin 17a)...
R. Johanan said: None are to be appointed members of the Sanhedrin, but men of stature, wisdom, good appearance, mature age, with a knowledge of sorcery, and who are conversant with all the seventy languages of mankind, in order that the court should have no need of an interpreter. Rab Judah said in Rab's name: None is to be given a seat on the Sanhedrin unless he is able to prove the cleanness of a reptile from Biblical texts. Rab said: 'I shall put forward an argument to prove its cleanness.
...proves itself insensible and incapable of coherent rational thought where YHWH and His prophetic will is concerned.
You are about as likely to get credible Biblical insight from a mafia don or a streetwalker as a rabbinic sage.
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Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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It is thought by the more prophetic oriented, that riding among the 'Purple Sage' provides credible (and periodically in-credible) insights.
Oddly enough sage is quite popular with the 'Zane'y' New Agers.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
It is thought by the more prophetic oriented, that riding among the 'Purple Sage' provides credible (and periodically in-credible) insights.
Oddly enough sage is quite popular with the 'Zane'y' New Agers.
Groan !
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Denise said:
Just make sure you're arguing with someone not familiar with statistics (not trying to offend but there's quite a bit of false logic under the heading 'statistics').
The probability of David writing his point is similarly improbable (doing the math on event probabilities, and combinations). But surprisingly he wrote it.
George could say David was improbable and therefore 0%. But David would point out he's 100%.
Point: every unique event has zero probability.
As a mathematician, I would say your last statement is absolutely false.
Soli Deo Gloria,
Randy
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Being a mathematician, what would you base the probability function on? I pre-specified 'unique'. It has an occurance of rate of '1'. It did not occur previously. And it did not occur again.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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David Paul said:
I've posted this perspective here on a few occasions...
Ah, but Denise...my first comment in this thread was not that unique. As I said, I have spoken on this topic in earlier threads. [;)]
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But then I didn't say your first comment in this thread was unique (though of course it literally was). One could compute a probability of a similar statement, but the point in time is already passed. Like George's point, you could only 'fulfill' the event.
But I'm surprised you didn't rise to my 'bait'. My statement is the basis for self-described historians, quite a few in the Logos stable, that argue miracles are not historical by definition. And of course the unique event of Jesus' appearance (for which I'm not questioning).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
But then I didn't say your first comment in this thread was unique (though of course it literally was). One could compute a probability of a similar statement, but the point in time is already passed. Like George's point, you could only 'fulfill' the event.
But I'm surprised you didn't rise to my 'bait'. My statement is the basis for self-described historians, quite a few in the Logos stable, that argue miracles are not historical by definition. And of course the unique event of Jesus' appearance (for which I'm not questioning).
I don't like the taste of bait. One way or the other, it is usually bitter. I disagree with some of the earlier statements in the thread, but I don't see enough pay off in trying to pound it all out.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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MJ. Smith said:
The following taken from his website (http://www.thelogician.net/3_judaic_logic/3_chapter_01.htm)
The decisions set down in the Mishnah, once it was closed, became binding for all future generations, and thus acquired the status of first principles, like the Scriptures, not open to challenge, and serving as top premises in the inference of further Halakhah. Although the Mishnah provided more practical detail than the Torah, it was written very telegraphically, and therefore could itself give rise to misunderstandings or disagreements.
Deut. 4:2, Deut. 12:32
The bold print statement by Sion is in direct, total, inevitable, and unrelenting conflict with the two verses from Deuteronomy. It produces a situation of flagrant apostasy, idolatry, and enmity. One reason for the ban on adding and taking away can be found in the sentence that follows. Man is incapable of improving upon Tohraah. The expectation of YHWH in the Law is that the Law would be applied to the best of one's ability and understanding BY THE INDIVIDUAL. Only when there was dispute would "judges" including priests get involved. But such disputes were to be handled on a case-by-case basis, NOT by erecting piggy-back or replacement laws that often flagrantly conflict with and supersede the Word of YHWH, which is precisely what has occurred in Judaism with the Talmud.
This is so fundamental, so elementary, so obvious a contradiction against YHWH's Word, the action can only be (and most assuredly is) viewed as a hostile and deliberate attempt to rebel against 'Elohhiym. To have this entire tribe willingly follow this path of inane and absurdly irrational rebellion with only the rarest peep of questioning or resistance (Qaraites) is absolutely mind-boggling.
I will point out that nothing I've addressed has anything to do with specifically identifying Yeishuu`a as Maashiyahh. Judaism thumbed its nose at YHWH directly long before He was manifested as Messiah. They just took that opportunity to shine a spotlight on their rebellion, and then continued it with characters like `Aquiyba' (Akiba) ratcheting the outrage to obscene proportions.
If you can produce quotes that show Sion strongly denouncing this mass psychosis, fine. I'd be thrilled to know. Otherwise, I don't care what he calls himself, irrationality permeates the warp and woof of his identity.
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David Paul, I don't happen to be a fan of Avi Sion based on his non-understanding of Nagarjuna. I was simply curious to know if you were familiar with his work but as for your quote - "don't shoot the messenger".
BTW: my cousin's wife and children belong to the tribe you mention. I want them to be able to read the Logos forums without feeling insulted. Do I sound sufficiently like a looping recording? Further clarification: you may be insulting my immediate family members by references to Mars Hill, Assembly of God, Church of the Nazarene, Methodist, Baptist, Unitarian, Quaker, Jewish, Catholic, Lutheran, Church of Christ, Presbyterian, Episcopalian, Congregational, Mennonite ...and, yes, we can discuss religion around the dinner table. I hope I haven't forgotten anyone or any steps in their journeys.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Okay, MJ...I'm at ease. [:)] I had heard his name, but until you asked, I had not read anything by him. I am not a big fan of formal logic. I find it to be a rather human enterprise, not unlike Judaism in the sense that it overdoes something that was never intended to be so ponderous. I'm not in the least knocking logical, rational thought, but to be truly logical, one's thoughts must have YHWH as the source and starting point. Just as important, though rarely engaged, one must actually attempt to think just as He does. No matter how many folks may consider a given concept to mean one thing, if YHWH considers it to mean something else, the majority is wrong no matter how logical their perspective may be. His revealed will is the key. Clear thinking is extremely needful, but even the process of logic can become burdened with all-too-human methods.
Wherever the discussion may take place, I am less concerned with people's feelings and more concerned about them making survivable decisions.
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David Paul said:
Okay, MJ...I'm at ease.
I had heard his name, but until you asked, I had not read anything by him. I am not a big fan of formal logic. I find it to be a rather human enterprise, not unlike Judaism in the sense that it overdoes something that was never intended to be so ponderous. I'm not in the least knocking logical, rational thought, but to be truly logical, one's thoughts must have YHWH as the source and starting point. Just as important, though rarely engaged, one must actually attempt to think just as He does. No matter how many folks may consider a given concept to mean one thing, if YHWH considers it to mean something else, the majority is wrong no matter how logical their perspective may be. His revealed will is the key. Clear thinking is extremely needful, but even the process of logic can become burdened with all-too-human methods. Wherever the discussion may take place, I am less concerned with people's feelings and more concerned about them making survivable decisions.
Were not the laws of logic created together with the creation of the universe just as the laws governing physics were created with the universe's creation and continue to hold? One cannot truly say that logic is a human enterprise in order to deprecate it any more than one can say such regarding physics. There may be faulty logic just as there may be faulty physics, but each is a human attempt to discern the laws which govern moments in the universe.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Fwiw, some of the most influential people in my life were Jewish. I have no problem with Jewish people per se. I greatly admire their disproportionate accomplishments in historically important fields of endeavor--folks like Cantor, whom I mentioned earlier in this thread. My unyielding conflict is with Judaism, the post-exilic fabrication that is a human retread of Biblical religion. But I have the same conflict with Christianity as well. I'm not being a respecter of persons in that sense. But no matter which of those groups you mentioned that someone identifies with, being and getting offended is not a good sign. YHWH intends for all of us to experience "offensive" dynamics, mainly because He is offended by our humanity. His intention is to eradicate it, whether with our cooperation (survivable) or without (not). Getting offended by that which offends our humanity is to set oneself up for a fall from which rising is highly unlikely.
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George Somsel said:
Were not the laws of logic created together with the creation of the universe just as the laws governing physics were created with the universe's creation and continue to hold? One cannot truly say that logic is a human enterprise in order to deprecate it any more than one can say such regarding physics. There may be faulty logic just as there may be faulty physics, but each is a human attempt to discern the laws which govern moments in the universe.
It's getting quite late, so I will attempt to make this brief.
Yes, the laws of physics are created by YHWH, but that doesn't mean that mastering them will result in wisdom. He didn't make us so that we could master the laws of physics, either practically or in knowledge. Surely, one can engage in natural inquiry that is at times fascinating, yet it can likewise be as ponderous as formal logic. Those laws have limited utility with regard to our ultimate assigned task. The point of this whole exercise of Biblically-informed existence is Phil. 2:5 per the NKJV. While His mind is logical, and He is the creator of logic and logical thought, logic, like all tools, can easily be misused. I find that formal logic often strikes me as a misuse of that tool. I also find that the tool of logic can be put to much more profitable use in other endeavors.
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David Paul said:
He didn't make us so that we could master the laws of physics, either practically or in knowledge. Surely, one can engage in natural inquiry that is at times fascinating, yet it can likewise be as ponderous as formal logic. Those laws have limited utility with regard to our ultimate assigned task.
27 And God created man in His image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them. 28God blessed them and God said to them, "Be fertile and increase, fill the earth and master it; and rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, and all the living things that creep on earth."
Gen 1.27
It would seem that man's first assigned task was to rule over the earth which, among other things, involves physics and logic.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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David Paul said:
He is offended by our humanity. His intention is to eradicate it,
I think you are absolutely wrong here. It seems to me that since God created our humanity, that must be what he desired. Furthermore, I think that he wishes us to be FULLY human. He did take our flesh upon himself and BECAME MAN.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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GS - "It would seem that man's first assigned task was to rule over the earth which, among other things, involves physics and logic."
Without doing any deep word studies here, I don't think "MASTER or RULE" includes understand fully. I've seen to-many "deep thinkers" who think they've MASTERED the logic.
That has only elevated themselves (humanity) towards God likeness, which is an affront to HIS character, and reduced HIS character toward manness.
In other words, in my view (opinion) a curious examination into physics and logic had better only take one to a higher view of who God is, and a deeper lowering recognition as to the depravity on man.
That's the only purpose 1 Cor 10:31 we have in all we do.
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GS - "He is offended by our humanity"
You'll remember that God was sorry he had created man. One doesn't have to read very far through the Pentateuch to see how many time God wanted to obliterate the Jewish nation. But advocates (human) Moses and Aaron stepped up to the plate sometime arguing with God that He had created this bunch of "stiff necked" people.
A rabbit trail: I think we are as stiff necked today as OT times.
So I agree, that if He wasn't offended by our humanity His Son wouldn't have had to become man, and bring the spirit of reconciliation to man.
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Looks like the thread is moving into Marcion territory.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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George Somsel said:David Paul said:
He is offended by our humanity. His intention is to eradicate it,
I think you are absolutely wrong here.
Of course, you do, George. It's why you're here.
George Somsel said:It seems to me that since God created our humanity, that must be what he desired. Furthermore, I think that he wishes us to be FULLY human. He did take our flesh upon himself and BECAME MAN.
It's not too late to take a mulligan on this, George. You want to take a mulligan? Take the mulligan, George.
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David Paul said:
It's not too late to take a mulligan on this, George. You want to take a mulligan? Take the mulligan, George.
Are you sure you aren't talking to yourself? I thought your name was David.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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How so?? Goodness, David. Have you read Marcion (actually his critics)? Ignoring his rather radical solution, his problem is the one you're addressing.
In the 'east' (300-400ce), apparently their solution was to create two Jesus's (which again show up in the form of critics' denial).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
Being a mathematician, what would you base the probability function on? I pre-specified 'unique'. It has an occurance of rate of '1'. It did not occur previously. And it did not occur again.
You are begging the question with your definition. It has nothing to do with either mathematics or probability.
Soli Deo Gloria,
Randy
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Ah, Randall. You ignore the obvious. Jesus was singular in his appearance and will be singular in his re-appearance. Probabilities and predictions don't apply to God.
Further, the Logos library is replete with singular examples that then procede to the word 'probably'.
About time to smell the roses. You're surrounded by them.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
Ah, Randall. You ignore the obvious. Jesus was singular in his appearance and will be singular in his re-appearance. Probabilities and predictions don't apply to God.
Densie, what do you mean by His "reappearance"????
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Well, either we're both significantly at varience in our understanding of the NT, or your question is mysterious. I'm associating his reappearnace with the 'hope' that Rick referred to. And quite frankly, I suspect that's why the early disciples wrote of 'hope', since the greeks were well versed in mathematics (a resource currently in Logos development).
More physically, clouds would demand visibility; angels' trumpets presume sound and air waves of a specific frequency. And 'on the air' would suggest what's surrounding planet earth. Not trying to be funny; I just am not following your question.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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David Paul said:Denise said:
Ah, Randall. You ignore the obvious. Jesus was singular in his appearance and will be singular in his re-appearance. Probabilities and predictions don't apply to God.
Densie, what do you mean by His "reappearance"????
14 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father’s house there are many dwelling places. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, so that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And you know the way to the place where I am going."
Jn 14.1-4
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Denise said:
Well, either we're both significantly at varience in our understanding of the NT, or your question is mysterious. I'm associating his reappearnace with the 'hope' that Rick referred to. And quite frankly, I suspect that's why the early disciples wrote of 'hope', since the greeks were well versed in mathematics (a resource currently in Logos development).
More physically, clouds would demand visibility; angels' trumpets presume sound and air waves of a specific frequency. And 'on the air' would suggest what's surrounding planet earth. Not trying to be funny; I just am not following your question.
That is because you are not cognizant of your dissonance. Whether that's funny or not depends on how long the condition last, I suppose. Let's review...
Denise said:Ah, Randall. You ignore the obvious. Jesus was singular in his appearance and will be singular in his re-appearance. Probabilities and predictions don't apply to God.
By saying there "WILL BE" a re-appearance, you are asserting a prediction. Your statement is a self-contradiction. THAT is what should be obvious.
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David Paul said:Denise said:
Well, either we're both significantly at varience in our understanding of the NT, or your question is mysterious. I'm associating his reappearnace with the 'hope' that Rick referred to. And quite frankly, I suspect that's why the early disciples wrote of 'hope', since the greeks were well versed in mathematics (a resource currently in Logos development).
More physically, clouds would demand visibility; angels' trumpets presume sound and air waves of a specific frequency. And 'on the air' would suggest what's surrounding planet earth. Not trying to be funny; I just am not following your question.
That is because you are not cognizant of your dissonance. Whether that's funny or not depends on how long the condition last, I suppose. Let's review...
Denise said:Ah, Randall. You ignore the obvious. Jesus was singular in his appearance and will be singular in his re-appearance. Probabilities and predictions don't apply to God.
By saying there "WILL BE" a re-appearance, you are asserting a prediction. Your statement is a self-contradiction. THAT is what should be obvious.
20 Listen! I am standing at the door, knocking; if you hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to you and eat with you, and you with me.
Re 3.20
The Lord comes to us in the Eucharist.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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I think George quoted the requisite passage, although the one I used seems more spectacular.
You'll notice that I did not observe Jesus' first appearance; I can only do as George did and point to text.
Similarly I did not hear the two angels on the Mt of Olives, and therefore can not attest to what they said. Again, I can only quote text. I can't even say it's 'probably' true (and so I hope that it is true).
That's why your frequent use of the phrase 'God intends' and other verbs are assersions at best. As Jesus repetitively pointed out in John's gospel, only one that had been with God could confidently make those assersions about God. Remember the jews had the same text you have and Jesus refused them.
And so today, we quote.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I guess because I see differently than you and George do, I'm not seeing what you're saying, or trying to say. I see prophecies that have already been fulfilled, which have not ever been contemplated by human minds, or at best have only been comprehended fragmentarily and incompletely. Saying that the bulls-eye was painted after the fact and that no real prediction exists are both nonsense. The bulls-eyes have been painted in every single book of the 66-book Book. Those have received multiple hits multiple times from multiple angles creating vast webs of supposed "co-incidence", producing things that are either design or impossible. No one ever knew that there was anything to even shoot at, so the notion that it is all deconstructed, after-the-fact reverse engineering is silly nonsense. The targets were declared in advance and the targets were all hit before anyone ever showed up to realize what had happened.
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