Off topic: Christian unity

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/571060#Comment_571060

I wouldn't be surprised if before long we see Pope Francis moving to change the longstanding rule that Catholics cannot share communion with non-Catholics.

I would be very surprised if he extended it beyond the current exceptions which share a common understanding of Communion - although I would expect the circumstances under which the exceptions apply to be extended.

Alex Bui

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/571060#Comment_571060

Great message from the Pope, [Y]. I read a similar message from my Logos 5 homepage, yesterday, a great reminder.

Mike Childs

It is a marvelous message, and seems to come from his heart.

I think unity of Spirit and unity around our common Lord Jesus Christ is a wonderful goal, and something I have often experienced with other traditions. If someone loves the Lord Jesus Christ and God's Word, I can be one in Spirit with him or her. If someone has a heart for God, I am drawn to them, and the Spirit of Christ in my heart leaps for joy. We do not have to agree in every doctrinal point or belong to the same church.

For example, I am a United Methodist (Wesleyan - Arminian in theology), but I more in common with a Calvinist who loves Jesus Christ and God's Word, than a spiritually dead Methodist.

However, (and I don't think the Pope is calling for this, so I am not criticizing him) that does not mean that unity of organization / denomination is even desirable. One in Spirit and even in many shared missions, yes! One in church structure, no! For example, there are good reasons I am not a Presbyterian, and good reasons why Presbyterians are not Methodist, and good reasons why both of us are not Catholic, and why Catholics are not Protestant. (And there soon could be good reasons why I might no longer be United Methodist.). Sound doctrine does matter, and unity at the lowest common denominator doctrinally does not glorify God.

I guess I am a little concerned that we live in an age that seems to believe that truth and doctrines do no matter. But it does matter what one believes. I agree with what John Wesley said (big surprise, huh?) John Wesley said, "But as to all opinions which do not strike at the root of Christianity, we think and let think. So that whatsoever they are, whether right or wrong, they are no distinguishing marks of a Methodist.". Wesley also said, "In these we may think and let think; we may 'agree to disagree.' But, meantime, let us hold fast the essentials of "the faith which was once delivered to the saints;". Think and let think on everything that does not strike at the root of the faith, but hold on to essentials of the faith. That is a delicate balance.

At the same time, I recognize that all who love Jesus Christ, and trust in Him as their Lord and Savior are my brothers and sisters.

I love the Pope's message. It would help me have more confidence in it if he would change his church's doctrine so that we could take Holy Communion together, recognize one another's clergy, baptism, etc. In other words, if we could fully recognized one another as Christian brothers and sisters, without sacrificing our distinctive beliefs.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/571098#Comment_571098

Michael, I read your input with some curiousity. I'm well familiar with your struggles that you've shared. Let me share some examples as a 'prism'.

One day I was talking with the Lutheran minister (I'm not familiar with the appropriate titles). He was a happy guy and quite driven about his work. But he made an odd comment. He said I'd not find many Lutherans at the Lutheran church here (at the time). Most were from other denominations but wanted/enjoyed the liturgical 'doings' at his church. He saw that as humorous, since the only thing left was him and the sign outside.

In another case, four evangelical pastors wanted to have their associated churches meet together and share fellowship. Which they did. Except for communion. That was kept separate ... in the same room. I thought that was interesting; reminded me some folks in Antioch.

In a third case, the jewish rabbi here offered to hold hebrew classes for the pastors (which they gladly took advantage of). One time I attended the jewish meeting; they were quite open to discussion, though obviously not agreement.

In a fourth case, in the next community, the Catholic church was holding special meetings with the Protestants to at least try to understand each other. And our Pastor encouraged attendance.

And in a final case, one night the class was discussing a very core theology and the more they talked, the more it became obvious that none of them agreed, and their positions were actually strongly argued theological positions one learns in any seminary. But they saw no problem, finishing up with coffee and cookies.

Although I agree with what you're saying, I'm impressed with 'walls' being more than issues of faith (not implying this from your comments).

Steve Farson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/571115#Comment_571115

Happened to view a video clip recently from N.T. Wright where he was asked the biggest problem facing the church. He said it was a lack of unity, that a watching world isn't impressed.

Sacrifice

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/571118#Comment_571118

Whenever I see this topic raised, I remember one of my professor's books:

http://www.frame-poythress.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/FrameJohnEvangelicalReunion1991.pdf

Carmen Gauvin-O'Donnell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/571133#Comment_571133

Unfortunately, we can't have unity at all cost... while I desire true unity with my Roman Catholic brother and sisters, DOCTRINE still gets in the way. As an example, even if Pope Francis removed the restriction on RC and Protestants taking communion together, as a Protestant, I would still be unable to take communion because of conscience and RC doctrine surrounding that sacrament.

(And I speak as someone who was raised RC and who actually came to Christ in adulthood and then started to actually study the differences between Protestantism and RC in general before deciding "I protest!" [:)] ).

That having been said, I certainly am appreciating this new Pope... he does seem to be a breath of fresh air insofar as the "if you have done this for the least of mine, you have done it for me" department goes... [Y]

Willard Scott

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/571136#Comment_571136

Sorry, I can't jump on the Kumbayah, Big Tent, Bandwagon. Do we just forget about the inquisition? Do we reduce to nothing the Reformation?...The blood of the reformers? Possibly, The best way to show love for others is to point out the errors in their doctrine. That's what Luther did. .... Ezekiel 33:6

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/571098#Comment_571098

(And there soon could be good reasons why I might no longer be United Methodist.). Sound doctrine does matter, and unity at the lowest common denominator doctrinally does not glorify God.

Well said, Michael. Pray that God will give you wisdom in whatever decision you make in this regard.

I think unity of Spirit and unity around our common Lord Jesus Christ is a wonderful goal

Agreed, with the reservations quoted above.

Mike Pettit

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/571141#Comment_571141

This is why posts like this are a bad idea, and why people should not comment on them either way, you cannot agree then be perplexed when some on else takes an opposing view. And people will be offended by the counter view.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/571136#Comment_571136

I absolutely agree with your statement. My name ist Hermann Fritz, and I grew up in an little roman-catholic village in Württemberg/Germany. In my childhood, I never heard about the importance of our Lord and Saviour Jesus, - I only knew stories about the child in the stable and all the glitter and romance in the holy night. In my youth, I was a helper (Ministrant) in my local rc and wanted to become a catholic priest. But because of some disappointments with the priest, I changed my goals and was trained in Administration. Then, - I was 23, a Methodist girl told me about Jesus and his atonement for my sins. Five years later, I studied Theology and since 2000 I am Pastor in a Freie evangelische Gemeinde (its like an Evangelical Covenant Church) in Cologne, Germany.

I left the RC, because I don´t see much difference to the wrong teachings of a lot of smaller christian heresy.

Greetings from Germany. By the way: Logos is great and I like to read the comments of this community. It is a great help for me.

Excuse my unskilled Englisch [:)]

Hermann Fritz

Milford Charles Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/571148#Comment_571148

Peace to you, Hermann!

*smile* You are INDEED welcome in the Logos Community Forums, and I am very pleased to welcome you, acknowledging your first post!!

What a joy for us to greet one another from the four corners of the world -- supporting and informing our mutual use of Logos Bible Software -- to the Glory of God and to the Benefit of humankind!

Thanks for participating in this "thread," and we look forward to "touching base" with you on many levels at many times as the days and weeks and months roll by!

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/571169#Comment_571169

Dear Milford,

hello again! Thank you very much for your kind reply and your cordial welcome! Here in cologne, it is now 18.20 PM and i am preparing for the Bible Study Class at 19.30 PM. It´s also exciting and joyful for me, to come in contact with brothers and sisters in Christ from "the four corners" oft the world.

An addition to my first post to make clear:

I am not an opponent oft rc believers. I have roman-catholic friends, who love our Lord Jesus. It was a catholic woman, who paid a large amount of my fees that I could become a pastor. She told me that Jesus spoke to her to pay my fees and she made it true.

Nevertheless, I think that we have to prove all things and to hold fast that which ist good (1 Thes 5:21).

Jesus bless you and the whole community here.

My best wishes,

Hermann

Milford Charles Murray

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/571231#Comment_571231

Blessings, Hermann! I dare to accept your kind words in behalf of the whole Logos Forums Community. The love and kindness and compassion of this group, I believe, has grown wonderfully (if not exponentially!) in the last few years!

As we inform and encourage one another -- growing and learning and sharing in our Lord Jesus Christ -- using the Holy Bible -- and Words guided by the Holy Spirit of God -- I fully expect further "good things" to "happen" even though there may be the occasional "bump" in the road, eh ?!?! *smile*

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/571270#Comment_571270

Reading through this (and other) threads, I have two comments to make re:Christian unity and our participation in making it happen:

1. I note that there are two styles of conversion from one denomination to another. One style spends its time saying what's wrong with their original denomination. The second style spends its time saying what is right with their new denomination. I find the second more conducive to eventual unity.

2. I note many want unity without the effort of learning why there is diversity - is it cultural, differences in language, or a significant difference in belief? If one doesn't understand why there is diversity, it is easy to ask the other side to change; if you understand the diversity, one can explore who has to change and why.

I appreciated the approach of a pastor receiving a convert into his church; he thanked God for what the previous denomination had taught the convert and asked for the convert's continued growth in the new denomination. That attitude may be the first step towards unity.

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/571351#Comment_571351

There is much wisdom in what you just said. Thanks MJ.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/571393#Comment_571393

It's interesting you don't hear the cat-calls from the Catholics when the Protestant 'giants' are being ballyhoo'd. I'm sure lots of 'love' could be thrown.

I'm not Catholic, but I do don't see why MJ has to 'carry the water'. But I'm impressed with both her and the present Pope.

Today a little boy had a pope costume on, and the Pope beamed; national news. Why did it get reported on the networks? One is reminded of the little ones who came close to the Kingdom.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/571418#Comment_571418

Hello Denise,

I wonder why it doesn´t matter for Noncatholics that it´s possible to grow up in a christian church and most of the time do not hear anything about the Importance of Jesus Christ. I could not read in this forum or topic one word about this tragedy, which happens each day in the whole world.

But I accept and understand that you don´t want to hurt anybody in this forum, nor will I. I also appreciate the wise statement of MJ, but I have to look on this matter from my own experiences.

More than twenty years, I heard about God, our father and Maria, our Mother, who were most holy and most precious to me. I believed that this was much more important than every other Doctrin im my Roman Catholic Church. And my own father died with this misleading believe. In my first years as a child in the rc, the Messe (worship) was presented in Latin, not in my native language. When I was Ministrant (helper in the worship) I had to learn the Latin texts and liturgy. But my priest never translated a single word for his young helpers. We only had to spell the words correctly.

When I went through a personal crisis, I started to seek God much more, but my imagination of HIM was an ever demanding father, who could never be satisfied. Only when I came to Jesus, I found the peace I desperately was longig for. In my case, I could not find HIM in my native church.

However, I can fully accept that there are a lot of catholic Christians who know about Jesus, love their local churches and are my sisters and brothers in HIM. Nevertheless, do not only judge from your US-perspective. The RC ist a worldwide actor, and it does not look the same in Spain, Germany, Italy, USA etc. Therefore, I am convinced, I already have christian unity with all my Jesus loving siblings, whereever they are. But I doubt very much that the doctrinal differences in the churches are compatible enough to forget this stuff and be unified in this field.

By the way: The best books I read about Jesus are "Jesus von Nazareth" from Pope Benedikt XVI. I believe that I will meet him in heaven.

Greatings from the sunny Cologne,

Hermann Fritz

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/571480#Comment_571480

most of the time do not hear anything about the Importance of Jesus Christ.

I have absolutely no idea how this could happen as a very basic understanding of the Mass taught to my son before first communion was to see Jesus Christ present in the Mass in the congregation, the Word, the Sacrifice and the Priest. And in a typical parish the vast majority of sermons you would hear would be drawn primarily from the Gospels. In the Gospels you would follow the life of Jesus in the Gospels every year in Sunday Mass, Four additional times if you attended daily Mass.If you'd been Eastern rite you'd also get to see the major events of Jesus' ministries in the icons.[:)]

I have to assume by your reference to Latin that your experience is entirely prior to 1962 and that your parish had only superficial catechesis. You are accurate that your terminology "come to Jesus" is a Protestant concept - the flip side of the Catholic "Jesus comes to me". I am glad you've found a religious home. Having been raised Protestant (with a twist) I have some understanding of where you have landed; my mother considers herself Methodist. But I would suggest that your experience with the Catholic Church is just that - your unfortunate experience. If you wish to understand where Catholicism stands, you'll need to study to learn what you were not taught in your youth. Your experience, though not uncommon, is neither typical or the ideal. Unfortunately, all denominations have some congregations that are less than ideal.

Nevertheless, do not only judge from your US-perspective

You would find that US Catholicism is atypical - heavily influenced by Irish priests with Jansenist leanings. I belong to a Dominican parish - the Dominicans have a long history of leaning towards the East as do I. They'll claim if Aquinas hadn't died along the way, he would have resolved the Great Schism.[:D]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/571485#Comment_571485

Dear MJ.,

thank you for your kind and thouthtful reply. I think, in principle you are right. I received only superficial catechesis in my parish. But I was a very pious child an went almost in every mass. But in my childhood, the priest didn´t illuminate the meaning of the sacraments and all the other symbols. And he didn´t like the II. Vaticanum with all its changes in the mass etc. Therefore, he celebrated the Latin liturgy as long as possible. When he was young, he was a catholic missionary, who served in Latin America and when he became ill, he was sent out in our village. For him, it was very important to adhere to the catholic doctrine that had been passed down through the centuries.The correct celebration and the outer appearance in the mass was crucial for him.

I was born in 1961, but it was not until 1970 that the II. Vaticanum truly reached our parish

I am very glad to learn from you that your son was found by Jesus in your church. However, in the Freie evangelische Gemeinde, where I am the pastor, we have many former catholic members, who confess another experience. Maybe, here in Germany, the rc looks not the same as in your parish, not to mention some curcial traditional doctrines, i do not agree with.

But I appreciate the conversation with you! Thank you for sharing your thoughts with me.

Greetings and God bless you,

Hermann

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/571480#Comment_571480

Hermann ... you're a gem. But please understand 'my' doctinal views are to the far right of yours. Put literally, the RC and what are called the Protestants, are from the same late 2nd century mold. So on this forum, I'm pretty much an out-caste.

But lucky for me, theological discussions on this forum are so interesting.

Ken McGuire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/571485#Comment_571485

They'll claim if Aquinas hadn't died along the way, he would have resolved the Great Schism.

I did once read a facinating article that, if I recall correctly, made the at first odd sounding claim that Thomas of Aquino and Martin Luther were two of the most Alexandrian theologians that the West has ever had, and so they are two of the best gateways to the East's Christological discussions for us Westerners... And yes, Thomas died while working towards resolving the Great Schism - and his leadership was missed when the Council (Florence I believe?) actually happened.

But, unfortunately Humpty Dumpty has had his great fall and we seem to be unable to put things together again. And that IMHO is as it should be. We need the Holy Spirit to call, gather, enlighten and sanctify us for that - and unfortunately it has not happened yet. We can only talk, pray, and wait to be clothed with power from on high, looking where we have been told to look.

SDG

Ken McGuire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/571539#Comment_571539

best gateways to the East's Christological discussions

Luckily for me, the East is part of Catholicism via the Eastern rites. I have a number of dual rite friends including Maronite and Melkite priests. Our long-time church secretary is Byzantine rite. In the past I've had friends who were Ruthenian rite and Mar Thoma rite. I've had a Coptic rite Jesuit as a classmate at GTU. How's that for a nice mix?[:)] This is the split I feel the worst about because it happened primarily because of culture, personalities and Western Church blunders.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/571512#Comment_571512

we have many former catholic members, who confess another experience.

I would expect that to be true - Catholics who leave the church but remain religious often have had bad experiences in the church or been badly taught. I suspect that is true for other groups as well.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/571528#Comment_571528

But please understand 'my' doctinal views are to the far right of yours. Put literally, the RC and what are called the Protestants, are from the same late 2nd century mold.

Drats ... and here I've been going back to our Jewish roots to explain my theology, logic and liturgy for half-a-century. You've ruined my day[:'(].