Page Numbers in books, especially from Vysro

Just wondering why some resources from logos are missing page numbers. This is rather important when trying to do a book study and needing a paper copy so you can anchor people to a specific location of reference and conversations.

Any thoughts out there...?

Find more posts tagged with

Comments

James C.

I'm with you. I think all books that have page numbers should have them in Logos (Vysro).

Graham Criddle

Just wondering why some resources from logos are missing page numbers.

This is a question which comes up quite frequently

As Alabama said in http://community.logos.com/forums/p/70957/493945.aspx#493945

"Most "Logos edition" resources do have page numbers, but not all. Virtually no Vyrso resources have page numbers."

In terms of Vyrso resources - due to the automated way in which Logos produces them there is, in general, no mechanism to include page numbers.

For Logos resources - a lot of the older resources didn't have page numbers when they were produced. Sometimes Logos does update these. More recent Logos resources do tend to have page numbers.

Mark Barnes

Most Vyrso books will never have page numbers. That's because they're converted from publisher eBooks that are also missing page numbers.

Almost all Logos books that exist in print do have page numbers, except a handful of very old resources that have never been updated.

DJM

Thanks for responses. I get the logistics of it but when I think of pulling up a resource to use with people of "lesser techno world" (they hold a book made of paper) for a group study, it seems a step backward to not be able to use my resource without a bunch of clumsy paragraph searches; hence I use a paper copy too.

It would be nice if the original book layout was page marked on the Vyrso version as this is what Logos is pushing as another library expansion resource.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/577157#Comment_577157

It would be nice if the original book layout was page marked on the Vyrso version as this is what Logos is pushing as another library expansion resource.

Bob Pritchett - Logos CEO - commented on this some years ago - http://community.logos.com/forums/p/33789/253169.aspx#253169

I doubt if anything has changed in this area.

DJM

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/577160#Comment_577160

Thanks for the link. I will still take the "free Vyrso" books I guess... obviously, but I will not be purchasing from Vyrso because paper books are still HUGE and the publishers who ignore pages numbers in their epubs(whatever format) are simply out of touch with current realities. (or trying to push a new one) Also they are missing an opportunity to have Logos users like myself sporting my ipod with their book rather than a paper copy so we can follow each other.

Sincere thanks again for info. Shalom

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/577163#Comment_577163

I will not be purchasing from Vyrso because paper books are still HUGE and the publishers who ignore pages numbers in their epubs(whatever format) are simply out of touch with current realities. (or trying to push a new one) Also they are missing an opportunity to have Logos users like myself sporting my ipod with their book rather than a paper copy so we can follow each other.

Your purchasing habits should be based on your needs. I would never want a paper copy over a Logos/Vyrso copy. Page numbers just aren't that important to me. The ability to search my library and have my books pop up serendipitously... that is much more beneficial than page numbers (to me) any day.

If I were using a book in a group setting, I would probably purchase a print copy as well... but that wouldn't change my normal purchasing habit.

Don Awalt

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/577308#Comment_577308

For me the biggest need for page numbers is that they are tied to Read Aloud - which I do not know why. Without page numbers, some situations where you could use Logos/Vyrso to read a book are eliminated.

If it was not for that I would not miss Page Numbers. It's why I put them in every one of my Personal Books. Maybe, given the current and even future demise of page numbers in electronic media, Logos could find a way to disconnect Read Aloud and Page Numbers.

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/577163#Comment_577163

the publishers who ignore pages numbers in their epubs(whatever format) are simply out of touch with current realities.

I would suggest they probably are quite in touch with present realities and are selling enough of these page-number-less ebooks to make it a good business decision. Yes, there are book groups that read books together, but it's not likely enough of a market share to make the publishers want to go to the expense to add page numbers to all their digital books. Maybe they'd choose to do it for the top 100 books that are recommended for book clubs, but that's probably it. Most e-books being published probably will never be read by a book group or used by scholars wanting to cite page numbers. So the "missed opportunity" you're referring to is such a small one compared to the cost of making all books have page numbers that it doesn't factor into their plans at all. Companies choose to forego missed opportunities all the time, because the cost-benefit analysis simply doesn't look hopeful.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/577326#Comment_577326

For me the biggest need for page numbers is that they are tied to Read Aloud - which I do not know why. Without page numbers, some situations where you could use Logos/Vyrso to read a book are eliminated.

Can you explain / give an example?

EDIT: I found this old thread... I just tried 5-6 of my vyrso resources... each seemed to do "read aloud" just fine.

Don Awalt

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/577342#Comment_577342

Well I'll be - looks like that's changed. Thanks!

James C.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/577438#Comment_577438

Here is my problem. If you don't have page numbers or location numbers how can you check references? How can you cite sources so that people can read them? If I say So and so said "XYZ" in Book "NONAME" but I can't give you a page or location number how will you find it? Maybe I can give you the chapter and you can read the whole chapter to try and find the quote but what about works that are very large?

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/577340#Comment_577340

it's not likely enough of a market share to make the publishers want to go to the expense to add page numbers to all their digital books

But would they have to? Don't they already have such files from the paper editions?

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/577476#Comment_577476

it's not likely enough of a market share to make the publishers want to go to the expense to add page numbers to all their digital books

But would they have to? Don't they already have such files from the paper editions?

They have the files, but surely the "tagging" or however they do such things in Kindle, would have to be different than for the print editions. Have you ever made a Logos PB from a Word document? It's easy to add page numbers in Word by inserting automatically generated page numbers in a header or footer, but those don't come across to an e-book. You have to put in [[@page:xx]] all over the place to get it to have page numbers in Logos. Someone would have to do that same sort of thing for an epub book. The publishers have virtually zero margin on ebooks, so they create them with absolutely minimal processing.

Graham Criddle

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/577476#Comment_577476

it's not likely enough of a market share to make the publishers want to go to the expense to add page numbers to all their digital books

But would they have to? Don't they already have such files from the paper editions?

In the post I reference above - http://community.logos.com/forums/p/33789/253169.aspx#253169 - Bob states that they often don't have the paper copies.

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/577488#Comment_577488

Bob states that they often don't have the paper copies.

I know, but Rosie and I are talking about the publishers' access to the electronic files behind the paper editions, not Logos' access to actual paper copies.

It's easy to add page numbers in Word by inserting automatically generated page numbers in a header or footer, but those don't come across to an e-book. You have to put in [[@page:xx]] all over the place to get it to have page numbers in Logos. Someone would have to do that same sort of thing for an epub book.

You're probably right. I didn't think far enough.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/577476#Comment_577476

it's not likely enough of a market share to make the publishers want to go to the expense to add page numbers to all their digital books

But would they have to? Don't they already have such files from the paper editions?

I have never worked in the publishing industry, so I can't really speak about how it works. Here are some guesses, from someone who has dabbled in publication design / layout.

"Good" books have professional layouts. The spacing between letters, words, paragraphs, etc. aren't flowing per se. That's what ebooks are. I assume that the text exists in a "flowable" form until they begin to set individual pages. Page numbers are tied to the physical page. Sometimes there are a number of different versions of a book. Generally, hardbacks have a better layout/ design than cheaper paperback books.

When the publisher makes an ebook version, I would assume that they would default to the flowable version... Without page numbers. Why? First, page numbers don't mean much in ebooks (yes, I understand their benefit... I just mean that a "page" is meaningless in an ebook when each device is a different size, and users can change the size of the typeface, etc). Furthermore, the versions with page numbers would have undesirable artifacts because of the layout. Lastly, the page number would not be inline with the text, but actually attached to the page. Even if the publisher had text flowing from one page to another, "selecting all" the text would grab the text... Not the page numbers!

In other words, I don't think it is as simple as "using the edition with page numbers."