Meaning-less Reviews

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579242#Comment_579242

Yes...but WHY???

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579242#Comment_579242

[:#] [*]

Josh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579264#Comment_579264

If I feel like I have something noteworthy to say about a resource, I'll write a review. If not, I'll just rate it.

I find the average star ratings on Amazon quite helpful, and the more people rate something the more likely any outlying votes that might have skewed the average will be ironed out. So I'm in favor of making it easier for people to leave ratings, not harder. If you require people to write up a review in this busy age when very few of us has enough time for things like that, except the most passionate, very few ratings will come in, and the average will be skewed by the one ranter who hated it or the shill who happens to know the author.

Alan Macgregor

No speaky, no starry.

[Y][Y]

I'm with you!

The heavens may declare the glory of God … but stars on their own don't tell me anything about why a reviewer really likes a resource. It could be for a whole raft of reasons which are unimportant to me. Perhaps the author's approach/argument/conclusions chimed with the "reviewer's". Perhaps it was cogently argued and well written. Perhaps it is a short book! Perhaps it is an exhaustive treatment of the topic. Without a short review I can only guess … and I can easily guess wrong!

Surely, if a book is worth rating, then it is worth a few words of explanation. I must say that I tend to leave things unrated most of the time, because I tend to reserve my praise for things that excite my enthusiasm.

Every blessing

Alan

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579291#Comment_579291

stars on their own don't tell me anything about why a reviewer really likes a resource.

This is true, but I don't care about an individual rating on its own. It's the average of all of them in aggregate that is helpful.

Perhaps on logos.com, where there are far fewer reviews than on Amazon it does make more sense to require a few words. I think 250 characters is too much to require, though. People are busy and won't say anything if they have to say that much. Even a short note like "cogently argued and well written" would be worth writing and should be allowed.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579290#Comment_579290

It is still a rating void of meaning. Often the 1-star ratings on Amazon are from people whose package didn't arrive on time, or for other irrelevant reasons that have nothing to do with the product. Some of the 5-stars are because they got it quickly and they liked how it was wrapped. I often find that the handful of one-star reviews (in the face of an avalanche of 4 & 5 stars) make cogent points regarding the dubious positions taken by an author, while the bright and shiny reviews often just say, "great book!" You have zero idea what motivates a review unless it is stated in words. Let me put it this way: 20 5-star ratings won't motivate me to buy if there is just one 1-star rating that gives a plausible reason to have doubt.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579296#Comment_579296

Let me put it this way: 20 5-star ratings won't motivate me to buy if there is just one 1-star rating that gives a plausible reason to have doubt.

Yes, I agree. But you can personally skip over the starred ratings that have no review and just read the ones that include reasons. There is no need to block people who just want to put stars on, even if that will be useless to you. Better yet (and Logos should implement this), Amazon provides the possibility of rating the reviews at to how useful they are, showing the "most helpful" reviews (whether positive or negative) first, and filtering the reviews by number of stars so you can go immediately and read the best 1-star and 5-star reviews. I totally agree that many of the 1-star ratings on Amazon are useless and many of the 5-star ones are too. But I always view Amazon's reviews sorted by "most helpful first" so I rarely get to see any of those dumb ones, and am thus not as troubled by them as you are.

Frankly, I don't think enough people are using the review feature on logos.com to make it useful at all. I look at the reviews on Amazon instead. I have only seen a small handful of resources on logos.com that have any reviews at all. In fact, I don't even look down that far on the product description pages, and hadn't noticed any star-only reviews until just now when I went looking for some.

Kevin Maples

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579266#Comment_579266

If I feel like I have something noteworthy to say about a resource, I'll write a review. If not, I'll just rate it.

ibid

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579266#Comment_579266

If I feel like I have something noteworthy to say about a resource, I'll write a review. If not, I'll just rate it.

I agree - if you don't want un-reviewed stars, just read the reviews. As a Professional Reviewer (so I am told), I always include a description, but I don't fault someone for only providing their initial reaction to a book or other resource. If you are going to read the reviews, why do the stars matter.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579300#Comment_579300

Better yet (and Logos should implement this), Amazon provides the possibility of rating the reviews at to how useful they are, showing the "most helpful" reviews (whether positive or negative) first, and filtering the reviews by number of stars so you can go immediately and read the best 1-star and 5-star reviews. I totally agree that many of the 1-star ratings on Amazon are useless and many of the 5-star ones are too. But I always view Amazon's reviews sorted by "most helpful first" so I rarely get to see any of those dumb ones, and am thus not as troubled by them as you are.

But those rated highly are biased, not by the quality of the resource, but by the popularity of the writer. On LOGOS, a 5-star review on a book by Sproul is going to be rated higher than a 1-star review on the same book. I have seen people criticize 1-star reviews just because they are 1-star review - after all, they argue, every book has some redeeming quality, though I as a reviewer may not think the book worth adding to my or any library.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579304#Comment_579304

So just read through the reviews and decide for yourself whether they are worth paying attention to. It's not like there are reams and reams of reviews on any Logos resource page. You're not going to be able to force people into writing fair and thoughtful reviews by some clever use of technology, so use your brain and weed out the chaff.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579310#Comment_579310

So just read through the reviews and decide for yourself whether they are worth paying attention to. It's not like there are reams and reams of reviews on any Logos resource page. You're not going to be able to force people into writing fair and thoughtful reviews by some clever use of technology, so use your brain and weed out the chaff.

On this we agree! [Y]

Josh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579313#Comment_579313

Logos could implement a ratings system that somehow benefits the reviewers. Maybe giving the reviewer a small percentage of his purchase price back in credit. This would motivate more people to write reviews. [H]

I'm ready when you are Logos...[:)]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579310#Comment_579310

I think perhaps the intention behind my OP is not being fully understood...maybe it wasn't fully expressed.

My desire is that people should be encouraged to actually say something...TO GIVE A CLEAR, COHERENT REASON FOR WHY YOU LIKE OR DISLIKE THE BOOK. A meaningless attachment of stars indicates fandom, not reason. I want to know why...I want to know.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579380#Comment_579380

I think perhaps the intention behind my OP is not being fully understood...maybe it wasn't fully expressed.
My desire is that people should be encouraged to actually say something...TO GIVE A CLEAR, COHERENT REASON FOR WHY YOU LIKE OR DISLIKE THE BOOK. A meaningless attachment of stars indicates fandom, not reason. I want to know why...I want to know.

You want to know - but it is not necessary. I do not like cheese - but I won't tell you why. And that is okay. The same is true of a book - if someone does not like, they don't like it. No explanation is needed. Ignore the stars and only read the reviews. Why are stars so important?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579380#Comment_579380

My desire is that people should be encouraged to actually say something...TO GIVE A CLEAR, COHERENT REASON FOR WHY YOU LIKE OR DISLIKE THE BOOK. A meaningless attachment of stars indicates fandom, not reason. I want to know why...I want to know.

Yes, people should be encouraged to do so, and we might even consider rewarding them for doing so. But there probably the large majority will not care to and no amount of coaxing will change them. Leave them alone and let them be, and don't let them make your life so miserable. Then again, I'm going to leave you be and not let your passion about this particular issue make me lose another moment of my life.

DMB

I think I'd recommend one better. Only allow 1 or 2 star ratings plus required explanation. That's all I check for on Amazon. Usually 3+ are just earning their credits. I suppose if all the resources had 1-2 stars that might be a problem. But I'm sure the forum would come up with a work-around to avoid correcting it.

JAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579426#Comment_579426

Only allow 1 or 2 star ratings plus required explanation.

Rowan Atkinson Lily Tomlin

You make me laugh - and think.

Joseph Turner

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579454#Comment_579454

I always use Amazon.com reviews anyway, as there are usually way more than on the Logos website. Obviously, in some cases, such as for a set, it is not as easy.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579495#Comment_579495

I always use Amazon.com reviews anyway, as there are usually way more than on the Logos website. Obviously, in some cases, such as for a set, it is not as easy.

For reviews of commentaries, I always check http://bestcommentaries.com.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579425#Comment_579425

My desire is that people should be encouraged to actually say something...TO GIVE A CLEAR, COHERENT REASON FOR WHY YOU LIKE OR DISLIKE THE BOOK. A meaningless attachment of stars indicates fandom, not reason. I want to know why...I want to know.

Yes, people should be encouraged to do so, and we might even consider rewarding them for doing so. But there probably the large majority will not care to and no amount of coaxing will change them. Leave them alone and let them be, and don't let them make your life so miserable. Then again, I'm going to leave you be and not let your passion about this particular issue make me lose another moment of my life.

Hmm...it seems you think I'm blowing a gasket over this. I'm not. I get that people are lazy (or busy, as you say) and so they just "do what they can", or what they feel like. I just personally believe that it is pointless. You seem to think that [*][*][*][*][*] is a reason in itself for buying a book. I can't imagine why anyone would conclude that. But hey, I'm not saying it's wrong; it's just not useful to me and others. So, for many folks, it is simply meaningless and useless. That isn't a "dig"...it's a fact. I can't do anything at all with an unexplained [*][*][*][*][*] or unexplained [*]. I'm just trying to make a case for folks taking the time to actually convey meaning along with their actions. That's all.

I guess in some ways this is akin to those unnerving occasions when folks quote a Scripture verse that can have a multitude of possible meanings, and thus interpretations, along with their assumed trump statement, "But the BIBLE SAYS...!" Yeah? So?? What of it? I literally mean that...WHAT OF IT?? What does quoting that Bible verse or passage actually mean (to you)?

For many Bible passages, there can be literally dozens of possible meanings. Not all will be valid, but quite often more than one can be. What are you assuming to be true when you say "CHAPTER:verse says..."? More often than most folks would suspect, the underlying assumption isn't valid. Does that mean the verse or passage isn't valid? Of course, not...every passage of the Bible IS valid, even if it in fact isn't true. By valid, I mean it serves YHWH's purpose, not that it serves human attempts at logic. Point is...not providing context is literally meaninglessness. Isn't that what the majority of the hermeneutics books available in Logos tell us?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579507#Comment_579507

You seem to think that is a reason in itself for buying a book.

Not at all. A single Star Star Star Star Star is useless (as you well know), but I trust in statistics. If there are 3621 reviews of a book and the average rating is Star Star Star Star Star (or close to it; sometimes the Star Star Star Star and Star Star Star Star ones are even more worth looking at, as those ones are less likely to be overloaded by fanboys), I take that as a pretty good indicator that it's worth looking into the book. But I don't ever buy it just based on the rating. Of course I take other things into consideration (including a few of the most helpful good and bad written reviews, my familiarity with the author, blurbs by any other authors I respect, if present, and so on; and I look inside at the chapter headings and as much of the book as I can browse around at, much as I'd do in a physical bookstore).

I merely use the rating system as a way of sorting the huge number books that come up in a search, so that I have a manageable number of them to explore further. The Amazon rating system isn't perfect, but I find it helpful for my purposes. I don't need to completely disregard the star rating. That's all I was saying. The stars don't dictate my purchasing habits.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579513#Comment_579513

With the kind of numbers that some Amazon books put up, I would agree, at least up to a point. But most of the books I look at on Amazon have fewer than 50 reviews, and often far less than 20. Logos, at this point, doesn't usually put up half of that number, except for very rare items. Which really is my point. I would like to know what is motivating folks, since there really is very little to go on for most Logos resources. Information is more needful on the Logos website, in my view.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579507#Comment_579507

Hmm...it seems you think I'm blowing a gasket over this. I'm not. I get that people are lazy (or busy, as you say) and so they just "do what they can", or what they feel like.

Interesting, I almost used this word ("lazy") to describe you; in that you want the stars to tell you about the book, rather than take time to read the reviews that have been written. However, I wanted to avoid name calling. Guess I should have been willing to say what I was thinking, instead of being polite.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579520#Comment_579520

Information is more needful on the Logos website, in my view.

We are in agreement on that.

Maybe there should be some kind of incentive for people to write reviews of books (both positive and negative). I'm always seeing people who have written thoughtful lengthy reviews on goodreads.com with a disclaimer that they received the book for free on the condition that they write a review, but with the freedom to write an unbiased review of it, not influenced by having received a free copy. Maybe Logos could do something like that. People could voluntarily sign up to be reviewers and get free copies of books that way. Logos might want to vet people who apply as reviewers by asking them to write up 5 reviews of books they already own, so that Logos can see their writing style and choose people who are good writers, not ones who are just going to write lame praise or rant about irrelevant things. (They might not pick me, as I just wrote a run-on sentence. [:P]) It's in Logos's interest to have people write honest reviews, whether good or bad.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579522#Comment_579522

Interesting, I almost used this word ("lazy") to describe you; in that you want the stars to tell you about the book, rather than take time to read the reviews that have been written. However, I wanted to avoid name calling. Guess I should have been willing to say what I was thinking, instead of being polite.

I think you must have me confused with someone who holds a perspective that is exactly opposite of what I have shared. My entire corpus of comments on this thread is a "lament" ("observation" is more like it) about the fact that I don't have anything to read for most Logos resources precisely because most people only post "star" ratings, which tells me nothing at all.

Odd.

Joseph Turner

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579497#Comment_579497

I always use Amazon.com reviews anyway, as there are usually way more than on the Logos website. Obviously, in some cases, such as for a set, it is not as easy.

For reviews of commentaries, I always check http://bestcommentaries.com.

I often times check there as well!

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579573#Comment_579573

I think the other site http://bestreallyconservativeandalwayscorrectcommentaries.com is far better

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579585#Comment_579585

I think the other site http://bestreallyconservativeandalwayscorrectcommentaries.com is far better

[Y] Indubitably.

William Gabriel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/579380#Comment_579380

I think perhaps the intention behind my OP is not being fully understood...maybe it wasn't fully expressed.

My desire is that people should be encouraged to actually say something...TO GIVE A CLEAR, COHERENT REASON FOR WHY YOU LIKE OR DISLIKE THE BOOK. A meaningless attachment of stars indicates fandom, not reason. I want to know why...I want to know.

Perhaps rating systems can give two averages: one the way they do it now, and one that only takes into account "meaningful" (non-empty, non-trivial, non-gibberish) reviews.

Amazon kind of encourages the review-less rating. I just finished a book yesterday, the Kindle app asked me to rate it, so I did, and then it simply exited with no option to write anything.