Terms of Service for PBB sync

Now that Logos sync of PBB is getting near there are some unanswered questions.

In the thread "Maybe a Local Sync to Mobile for PBB?" Bradley Grainger stated that there might be restrictions on PBB that were sync. He said "you may not be permitted to sync a 1GB "personal" book full of copyright-infringing or illegal material, for example"

http://community.logos.com/forums/p/72434/504701.aspx#504701 [add space at end of link]

Any known limitations to PBB that we might need to know about?

If there are restrictions how are we to mark PBB that are not to be picked up because they violate the restrictions?

Re: Copyright-infringing - in the USA there is a Fair Use clause. We can do things in our own house [on our own computer] that we could not do on a public computer. Many PBB used by customers in the USA may rely on the Fair Use clause. Will Logos be fined for copyright infringing for putting those files into the Cloud? [or has Logos resolved that problem?]

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Dave Hooton

Bradley Grainger stated that there might be restrictions on PBB that were sync. He said "you may not be permitted to sync a 1GB "personal" book full of copyright-infringing or illegal material, for example"

You may not be permitted to sync a 1 GB personal book! and:

You may (should) not be permitted to sync a book full of copyright-infringing or illegal material.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/589799#Comment_589799

So I guess my NETS PB may be an issue huh? I wonder if Logos will allow us to tag PBs and non-sync any that we've identified as illegally stolen or has really raunchy material (certainly not Vyrso's Colorado cowboy romance)?

(yes, joking ... surely no one would think someone has NETS in Logos).

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/589866#Comment_589866

In the beta Denise you had to manually sync files to the cloud; in this manner anything that was of questionable nature wouldn't be sync'd across logos servers. Also they had a (it felt arbitrary) 10mb limit on file size. most of my pbs were small enough but I think 3-4 were 12-20 mb.

My question is that in the case of a book given to an individual by an author, prior to publication (in digital form) if that type of books is "allowed" to be sync'd?

I have several author friends and so this is relevant to me. I have 5-6 pb's that would meet this criteria.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/589912#Comment_589912

I'm sure that Terms of Service will be clarified. And likewise with regard to a digital form of authorisation (certificate) for copyright material.

David Wilson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/590042#Comment_590042

Looks like pbb sync is close to working. PBBs compiled on my primary desktop are now listed on my second desktop and my laptop, even though they are still flagged as "do not have a license for this resource" if I try to open them on another machine. (not using a beta version).

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/589912#Comment_589912

abondservant, interesting question.

I didn't do beta. But logically the PB is distributed by Logos servers. In which case they'd have a legal duty to at least check for obvious copyright material (similar to Google). On the other hand, it'd be similar to the various 'dropboxes' type affairs (a similar issue being in the Supreme Court presently).

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/590046#Comment_590046

PBBs compiled on my primary desktop are now listed on my second desktop and my laptop,

listed where?

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/590053#Comment_590053

abondservant, interesting question.

I didn't do beta. But logically the PB is distributed by Logos servers. In which case they'd have a legal duty to at least check for obvious copyright material (similar to Google). On the other hand, it'd be similar to the various 'dropboxes' type affairs (a similar issue being in the Supreme Court presently).

Its all material I have authors permission to use, received BEFORE publication, so before it was copyrighted by a book house(?). But if they use any type of automation to verify we aren't pirating stuff the books I have legally might well be flagged.

At this point a handful of books could be manually sync'd but in a few years or a decade it might be a bit more unwieldy.

David Wilson

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/590057#Comment_590057

PBBs compiled on my primary desktop are now listed on my second desktop and my laptop,

listed where?

Tools, Library, Personal Books

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/590088#Comment_590088

Also as I recall, they always populate the metadata on your other machines, but they don't move the book data itself over.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/590088#Comment_590088

PBBs compiled on my primary desktop are now listed on my second desktop and my laptop,

listed where?

Tools, Library, Personal Books

If you mean within the personal book builder tool, that has always synced.

David Ames

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/590042#Comment_590042

I'm sure that Terms of Service will be clarified. And likewise with regard to a digital form of authorisation (certificate) for copyright material.

In the beta Denise you had to manually sync files to the cloud; in this manner anything that was of questionable nature wouldn't be sync'd across logos servers. Also they had a (it felt arbitrary) 10mb limit on file size. most of my pbs were small enough but I think 3-4 were 12-20 mb.

Yes, they will be clarified but it might be nice if we were told what the rules would be before it goes live and we find that 95% of our PBB fail to pass. [too big, no copyright fair use accepted, etc.] [also customer input into the rules might be nice]

Fred Chapman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/590497#Comment_590497

I would guess this feature (in some form) is likely to be released as a beta in the next few months. I think we will see an evolution in both the development of the feature as well as the policies associated with the feature during the beta. The latter will probably be significantly influenced by the beta users.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/590507#Comment_590507

Obviously Fred's right ... time will tell.

I'd also think (unless I'm completely blind), there'd need to be a clue how big a PB actually is. Normally I'd go to the resources directory the hard way. But the PBs have a secret-code (filename) you have to type into your special Logos decoder ring (or jot down with a pencil).

Fred Chapman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/590525#Comment_590525

Obviously Fred's right ... time will tell.

I'd also think (unless I'm completely blind), there'd need to be a clue how big a PB actually is. Normally I'd go to the resources directory the hard way. But the PBs have a secret-code (filename) you have to type into your special Logos decoder ring (or jot down with a pencil).

If you go to your resource directory and sort by file type all of your PB's will have .LBSPBB extension.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/590645#Comment_590645

Yes ... as in my comment above. Can we assume you don't have many large PBs?

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/590647#Comment_590647

Just double checked - 1 pb at 11mb, 1 at 383mb and 1 at 25mb.

the 383mb is the encyclopedia Britannica 11th edition.

Fred Chapman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/590647#Comment_590647

Yes ... as in my comment above. Can we assume you don't have many large PBs?

That is correct. None of the PB's I currently have are very large.

DominicM

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/590685#Comment_590685

Have already notified Logos of this, but I have several PB's which I have permission to use, even though they are in copyright, however storing them on any 3rd Party server (Logos) would breach the agreement I have, and therefore make me liable to legal action for breach of agreement.

I desire/need each book to be able to NOT be synced by default, and we opt in to sync or not on the build screen.. anyhow that's my hope

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/590690#Comment_590690

Have already notified Logos of this, but I have several PB's which I have permission to use, even though they are in copyright, however storing them on any 3rd Party server (Logos) would breach the agreement I have, and therefore make me liable to legal action for breach of agreement.

I desire/need each book to be able to NOT be synced by default, and we opt in to sync or not on the build screen.. anyhow that's my hope

It was this way when they accidentally released the feature to beta a while back.

Lee

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/590698#Comment_590698

Instead of the Sync to Mobile for the PBB. Why could Logos not just give us the PBB feature on our mobile device so that we could create any needed PBB on a tablet or other device?

David Ames

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/590690#Comment_590690

Have already notified Logos of this, but I have several PB's which I have permission to use, even though they are in copyright, however storing them on any 3rd Party server (Logos) would breach the agreement I have, and therefore make me liable to legal action for breach of agreement.

I desire/need each book to be able to NOT be synced by default, and we opt in to sync or not on the build screen.. anyhow that's my hope

Question: Would you be liable? Or would Logos? You had the right to use the data / text as you wished and then along come Logos and takes your file. Who is liable? [[You have NO large amounts of money - Logos might be seen as a viable target.]]

Also if YOU are the only one that can use that sync file has Logos taken all needed protection to protect themselves from copyright infringement? The file MIGHT be on some other server but only you will have access.

Does the same apply to Cloud backups?

Also "Have already notified Logos of this" - any word from them?

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/590825#Comment_590825

Instead of the Sync to Mobile for the PBB. Why could Logos not just give us the PBB feature on our mobile device so that we could create any needed PBB on a tablet or other device?

Βecause as has been said, they are nearly finished with a better way, that has less coding required to finish than some of these other ideas would require starting from scratch. Its not quite as simple as you think I think.

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/590860#Comment_590860

Have already notified Logos of this, but I have several PB's which I have permission to use, even though they are in copyright, however storing them on any 3rd Party server (Logos) would breach the agreement I have, and therefore make me liable to legal action for breach of agreement.

I desire/need each book to be able to NOT be synced by default, and we opt in to sync or not on the build screen.. anyhow that's my hope

Question: Would you be liable? Or would Logos? You had the right to use the data / text as you wished and then along come Logos and takes your file. Who is liable? [[You have NO large amounts of money - Logos might be seen as a viable target.]]

Also if YOU are the only one that can use that sync file has Logos taken all needed protection to protect themselves from copyright infringement? The file MIGHT be on some other server but only you will have access.

Does the same apply to Cloud backups?

Also "Have already notified Logos of this" - any word from them?

You know, it seems to me if they scramble it in a way that they can't read it, how is this different than using - lets say dropbox, or carbonite - as a backup? I would suspect that they have done all they can (and amazon as well, isn't it amazons cloud they use?) to ensure they are covered legally - and likely have had a lawyer consulting along the way.

DominicM

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/590860#Comment_590860

Also "Have already notified Logos of this" - any word from them?

Yes - several times - no response as yet

JAL

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/590690#Comment_590690

opt in to sync or not on the build screen.. anyhow that's my hope

This would be my prefered implementation. (For reasons apart from the expressed concern regarding copyright.)

Sarel Slabbert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/590968#Comment_590968

I find this discussion interesting. It is strange that Logos would implement a feature, and encourage users to use it, without giving clear indications of certain legal complications. I am watching this with interest.

JT (alabama24)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/593228#Comment_593228

It is strange that Logos would implement a feature, and encourage users to use it, without giving clear indications of certain legal complications.

But they haven't implemented it yet. [;)]

Mark Barnes

In the thread "Maybe a Local Sync to Mobile for PBB?" Bradley Grainger stated that there might be restrictions on PBB that were sync. He said "you may not be permitted to sync a 1GB "personal" book full of copyright-infringing or illegal material, for example"

Early in a beta cycle, they began work on syncing Personal Books. They finished the uploading part of the sync, but not the downloading part. Because it was half-finished, it caused problems, and now both are disabled.

While the uploading part worked, there was a limit of 10Mb on the size of the compiled PB.

I think we can be very confident that Logos are not going to be manually or automatically checking the contents of Personal Book files to see if there is copyright infringement. They may, perhaps, add 'warnings' when you upload a file, asking you to confirm that you have the right to do that.

Sarel Slabbert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/593235#Comment_593235

Early in a beta cycle, they began work on syncing Personal Books. They finished the uploading part of the sync, but not the downloading part. Because it was half-finished, it caused problems, and now both are disabled.

While the uploading part worked, there was a limit of 10Mb on the size of the compiled PB.

I think we can be very confident that Logos are not going to be manually or automatically checking the contents of Personal Book files to see if there is copyright infringement. They may, perhaps, add 'warnings' when you upload a file, asking you to confirm that you have the right to do that.

I wonder if the uploading option will be automatic, or manually? From what you say Mark, it appears as if you suspect a manual process. In other words, only the books you want to upload will be synced?

David Ames

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/593235#Comment_593235

They may, perhaps, add 'warnings' when you upload a file, asking you to confirm that you have the right to do that.

Someone [Logos] needs to define what is meant by "you have the right to do that". In the US the fair use clause allows us to do 'things' but does not allow us to pass on our doing of 'things' to others.

Re a 10 Mb limit: Just cut the resource docx file into multi file sets. Some of the early Bibles were published with the Old Testament in two or more volumes. [EDIT: I have two files over 10 Mb. Both are Bibles. 10.5 and 10.6]

[I just though that it might be nice if someone [Logos] could give us a heads up on what the rules might be so we can get ready while waiting.]

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/593241#Comment_593241

They may, perhaps, add 'warnings' when you upload a file, asking you to confirm that you have the right to do that.

Someone [Logos] needs to define what is meant by "you have the right to do that". In the US the fair use clause allows us to do 'things' but does not allow us to pass on our doing of 'things' to others.

David,

this differentiation between use and distributing to others may also apply in non-US jurisdictions (such as Europe) - however, in syncing a PB to your other device you don't distribute it to others. This would rather be when you put it up in the PB Store for us all to download - a different level of Logos' "PB evolution" altogether. I tend to think that merely syncing the PB - via some cloud - to another device wouldn't change the status of its copyright legality.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/593237#Comment_593237

I wonder if the uploading option will be automatic, or manually? From what you say Mark, it appears as if you suspect a manual process. In other words, only the books you want to upload will be synced?

That's how it worked on the beta. On the thread I linked to, Logos employees said:

You might not want to sync a book every single time it is compiled. (Maybe you want to check that formatting was converted properly first.) You might have limited or expensive bandwidth. You might be working on a test book to try out new PBB syntax. Maybe in the future there'll be a way to share books with other users and you might want to perform some quality control and testing before you upload your most recent edits...

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/593241#Comment_593241

Someone [Logos] needs to define what is meant by "you have the right to do that". In the US the fair use clause allows us to do 'things' but does not allow us to pass on our doing of 'things' to others.

At the first stage, Logos is only going to support syncing within our own account. Any sharing between users is likely to come later, and I don't think we need to worry about it at this stage. Logos have a history of a 'hands-off' approach to these kinds of issues, and I see no reason why this should be different.

Re a 10 Mb limit: Just cut the resource docx file into multi file sets. Some of the early Bibles were published with the Old Testament in two or more volumes. [EDIT: I have two files over 10 Mb. Both are Bibles. 10.5 and 10.6]

That breaks internal linking.

fgh

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/593243#Comment_593243

in syncing a PB to your other device you don't distribute it to others

That would certainly be true if it was done over a local network, but it won't be. Are there clear legal decisions saying that storing something on someone else's servers doesn't qualify as distributing? Could a Logos developer access our PB's if he wanted to? (I don't think we need to ask if CIA, FBI and NSA could...)

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/593563#Comment_593563

Could a Logos developer access our PB's if he wanted to?

As it's the compiled version that's synced, it wouldn't be easy to access, but I very much doubt it would be impossible.

But that's not the point. If you're willing to store your document in the cloud - and these days, who doesn't? - then there's no problem with the future Logos sync.

My average PB is stored on my hard-drive, backed up to another computer, backed up again in the cloud, and synced to my OneDrive account. Plus there's a compiled version, of course. In most juristictions that doesn't create any copyright issues (assuming I have the rights to store the file on my computer), because archival and backup is considered fair use (or is extremely likely to be considered fair use should it reach court).