What books did Joel Osteen read?
A serious question,
This guy's ammo on "illustrations" are endless and I got to say they're pretty good. (let's be honest)
Not a lot of people are gifted with telling illustrations like that.
I wonder what books he read to get his illustration or where he got them from?
anyone ever searched?
edit: (s)
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mike said:
This guy's ammos on "illustrations" are endless and I got to say they're pretty good. (let's be honest)
I know very little about Joel Osteen and have never read a book or heard him speak. However, I have no idea what this sentence means! What's "ammos"?
On a general note: Andy Stanley is one of the best speakers I know... He admits that he uses a team to assist him. Perhaps Joel does the same?
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I'm sure a quick googling can give you information.
anyway if you never heard him, watch this and count how many illustrations he gave in one sermon.
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mike said:
I'm sure a quick googling can give you information.
Google only returns restaurants and attempts at possible abbreviations - what do you mean by 'ammos'.
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Anthony Ramsey said:mike said:
I'm sure a quick googling can give you information.
Google only returns restaurants and attempts at possible abbreviations - what do you mean by 'ammos'.
Boy, it looks like none of you were born in a country that is currently at war. Ammunition = Ammo...hence, lots of bullets (illustrations) to make his point and he doesn't run out of them. I know because where I work we use Ammo cans to store radioactive material. Those things are heavy (about 50 lbs each - depending on how much we load them - I'm sure with bullets/Ammunition [ammo] they weight more). [;)]
DAL
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I am told that most of these prosperity preachers hold the Wall Street Journal in high esteem.
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DAL said:Anthony Ramsey said:mike said:
I'm sure a quick googling can give you information.
Google only returns restaurants and attempts at possible abbreviations - what do you mean by 'ammos'.
Boy, it looks like none of you were born in a country that is currently at war. Ammunition = Ammo...hence, lots of bullets (illustrations) to make his point and he doesn't run out of them. I know because where I work we use Ammo cans to store radioactive material. Those things are heavy (about 50 lbs each - depending on how much we load them - I'm sure with bullets/Ammunition [ammo] they weight more).
DAL
Perhaps the confusion was pluralizing AMMO (which is already plural in a collective sense). I would assume that Osteen as a communications major in college has a research assistant who helps with writing illustrations.
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Yup. The best money can buy. [:)]David Thomas said:I would assume that Osteen as a communications major in college has a research assistant who helps with writing illustrations.
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mike said:
A serious question,
This guy's ammos on "illustrations" are endless and I got to say they're pretty good. (let's be honest)
Not a lot of people are gifted with telling illustrations like that.
I wonder what books he read to get his illustration or where he got them from?
anyone ever searched?
Join Toast Masters or pay a Public Speaking Coach to help you. A lot of motivational speakers (which is the category I put Joel in) they sometimes pay a coach to help them get better in their particular area of expertise...or as others have suggested, he's got the talent, but he also has a team working for him to help him craft the right illustrations.
DAL
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I think I'll pass. But I challenge you to count the Bible references. I would guess a stark contrast.mike said:anyway if you never heard him, watch this and count how many illustrations he gave in one sermon.
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FWIW:
A long time ago, I learned a very simple truth (although it took me a while to work it out) ...
1) Good preachers are not necessarily good speakers and,
2) Good speakers are not necessarily good preachers.
Instead of Artificial Intelligence, I prefer to continue to rely on Divine Intelligence instructing my Natural Dullness (Ps 32:8, John 16:13a)
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It's sure a good thing early Christian writers didn't get referenced on 'Logos forum' in the early centuries. You guys would of run out of lighter fluid (while searching for your keyboard, plus what 'ammos' means).
But it is interesting that early Christians threw mud made up of inappropriate behavior with either gender; today's mud has a lot of money in it. And as the Qumranites called it 'smoothies'.
And yes, I've watched Joel a few times; much can be learned from smiling.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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@ Denise.
I'm a pretty boy. How do you like my smile?
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Hmmm. Joel seems to be really bringing out people's best side. Am I reminded that the whole OT uses 'good times' as the candy and pestilence as the threat? The targums shifted a bit to 'merit'. 'Pay' sounded a little too obvious.
Then when we get to the NT, Jesus busily offers what to the poor? Mmmm ... what could it be? Of course the well off get the threats of pestilence (but only if they're pastors in Texas).
Actually I'm quite impressed with Joel. But not from his religious interests. In corporate-land, being willing to smile (oddly enough) is one of the most effective ways to move the team forward.
But back to Logos, another great example are the pictures of Jesus (the painters were working off of early photos, you know). During his ministry Jesus is always smiling (plus blond hair). Even at the crucifixion he's smiling (well ... the gnostic painters anyway).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I'll admit my sample set is incomplete when it comes to this particular preacher. I remember I was at my grandmothers one night after a family get together and she was watching Larry King as was her routine and this guy was on there.
I know baptists have a bad rap for being exclusionistic in some ways. There are plenty of jokes about how we think we are going to be the only ones in heaven one day. Sometimes that is accurate, but I don't think thats descriptive of me in particular. All that said, back to the story.
Larry King asked a question that was the perfect segue to the Gospel; and Osteen said "love love love blah blah blah love love love each other love love love (me) love love love blah blah blah love". Neither Jesus nor any scripture references were mentioned at any point. It was one of those times when an individual speaks a lot and says nothing.
That one impression is all I have of the man that when given the perfect opportunity to share the Gospel on nationwide TV he dropped the ball.
No lighter fluid here; and I can't say I'd do any better. But IF indeed love is the sole focus of his minstry than he's missed out. Certainly thats a part of the gospel, but not the whole.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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I am reminded of the parable of the dishonest manager. It is easy to complain about the content of his message, but as the OP mentioned, he does speak well. And we who claim to have a better message should not be afraid to learn how to speak by comparing ourselves with him...
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
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Ken McGuire said:
And we who claim to have a better message should not be afraid to learn how to speak by comparing ourselves with him...
Unless we violate the spirit of Paul in http://ref.ly/1Co2.1 and http://ref.ly/2Co2.17
Eloquence is not inherently Christian or virtuous, though I'm certainly not advocating for lack of clarity when preaching.
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I will refrain from stating my opinion about Joel.
He certainly has a research team and a good one. Once you get to a certain level, you can afford that .
I got to spend some time with Rick Warren's research assistant (he also had a secretary and some other assistant if I remember correctly). She had an amazing system of filing and organization; it was fascinating. I think she had 1-2 people working with her.
At the basic level, she said Rick might say he needs an illustration about respecting your spouse or whatever. She would go to work and find a few and he would pick one out. Or he might want a picture or something else.Most of her job was to collect illustrations and file them away in the system. Rick would sometimes give them to her and sometimes she would come across one. I am going by memory here from several years ago.
By the way, everyone I came across at Saddleback seemed to be very genuine and humble, including Rick.So anyway, that is why speakers at that level seem to have an endless supply of illustrations; it's because they do. They have help and a good system for getting the right thing for the right sermon.
Just my anecdotal observation.Jerry
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abondservant said:
Larry King as was her routine and this guy was on there...
Larry King asked a question.....
That one impression is all I have of the man that when given the perfect opportunity to share the Gospel on nationwide TV he dropped the ball.Did you watch the part when he was asked if he donated to charity and he hesitantly said "Yes" and when he was asked which one, he evaded the question altogether and never answered but just silly smiled his way out of the question?
Also, when he was asked if he was ok having all that money, he said that "God wants his children to prosper. Abraham was rich, David was rich, God gave Solomon riches, etc." The funny thing is that this motivational speaker is the only one rich while his members aren't (at least those that don't have the good jobs anyway, but they still give him money). I think the following picture paints the actual story of it all - Sad but true:
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DAL said:abondservant said:
Larry King as was her routine and this guy was on there...
Larry King asked a question.....
That one impression is all I have of the man that when given the perfect opportunity to share the Gospel on nationwide TV he dropped the ball.Did you watch the part when he was asked if he donated to charity and he hesitantly said "Yes" and when he was asked which one, he evaded the question altogether and never answered but just silly smiled his way out of the question?
Also, when he was asked if he was ok having all that money, he said that "God wants his children to prosper. Abraham was rich, David was rich, God gave Solomon riches, etc." The funny thing is that this motivational speaker is the only one rich while his members aren't (at least those that don't have the good jobs anyway, but they still give him money). I think the following picture paints the actual story of it all - Sad but true:
I was lost in disappointmentville and don't remember a thing about the rest of what he had to say.
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mike said:
A serious question,
This guy's ammo on "illustrations" are endless and I got to say they're pretty good. (let's be honest)
Not a lot of people are gifted with telling illustrations like that.
I wonder what books he read to get his illustration or where he got them from?
anyone ever searched?
Actually, that's a good question, mike.
Like most of your respondents, I'm not a fan of Joel Osteen either, but there may be something to learn from him about story-telling.
In college, I learned about the importance of illustrations--the stories that illustrate the importance of the points I was trying to make. I've come to believe that that approach is wrong-headed. The stories are the message. That's why the God didn't give us a systematic theology or a wiki or a policy document or a set of principles. He gave us stories of people's lives: Adam, Moses, David, Ezra, Jesus and his apostles. Many of the Psalms are storied. The prophets make sense within the Israel's story. Paul's letters all have storied substructures. Revelation is a single enacted story.
God is a person, not a theological principle, so he shows up in people's stories. We can abstract those stories into principles that help us comprehend him: that's fine, but God is found not in the principles but in the stories. That radical change of epistemology has revolutionized the way I teach.
God is known through people and their stories. He always planned to be known through people. We are people whose stories reflect (image) God to each other. Israel's calling was to be the people through whom other nations would know God. The ultimate revelation of God was through a person. Corporately, our stories are the revelation of God, known through his body.
We might argue that guys like Joel O choose the wrong stories, but perhaps they have understood why the storied approach works. I'm no longer looking for good illustrations: I'm looking for God at work in people's lives.
Hope that's helpful, Mike.
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I don't think anyone objects to using illustrations to help understand/demonstrate Scripture. It becomes troubling when the rare inclusion of a Biblical text is an attempt to support one of a multitude of feel good illustrations.
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mike said:
Not a lot of people are gifted with telling illustrations like that.
Hmm...Bill Cosby, Garrison Keillor, Tom Bodett. But they're not staring down the barrel of James 3:1 judgment.
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I listened to Joel Osteen once and that was enough. I won't comment further. However, since it has been mentioned and we are in Logos Forums...
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Going to link an image that is potentially offensive to followers of Osteen. There are a few others in the image, Joeseph Prince, Joyce Meyer, and Sara Jakes. If you like any of them I wouldn't recommend the image. I'm sharing it because it made me laugh, and because the image follows the tenor of this thread RE Osteen.
Click Here.
Apologies if you find your self offended.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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They could mend my crushed sensibilities by enclosing the word Christian in quotes. [:)]abondservant said:Apologies if you find your self offended.
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abondservant said:
Going to link an image that is potentially offensive to followers of Osteen. There are a few others in the image, Joeseph Prince, Joyce Meyer, and Sara Jakes. If you like any of them I wouldn't recommend the image. I'm sharing it because it made me laugh, and because the image follows the tenor of this thread RE Osteen.
Click Here.
Apologies if you find your self offended.[Y][Y][Y]
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I'm not a fan of Joel Osteen either. However, purely by accident he was on the television while I was struggling with a really hard personal decision. As I was working my way through my decision I listened to him with half an ear, and his story actually helped me to make up my mind on what to do (and my decision has since been proven right a dozen times over).
Don't be quick to discount how the Lord chooses to give us guidance. He gave me my answer, as plain as the nose on my face, straight from the mouth of someone I have very little respect for and that just proves to me that my own arrogance needs a tempering of humility more often than not. When you place yourself above someone else you are making yourself a prime target for a little humility lesson.
All that being said, I still don't like Joel Osteen but I'm far less tempted to judge him. That's not my place. Ps 9:8–9 is a good thing to remember here along with Mt 7:1-3 of course
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Gary Foster said:
When you place yourself above someone else you are making yourself a prime target for a little humility lesson.
Reminds me of Balaam and his talking donkey.
Numbers 22:22-30
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Like I said, I am not sure if I were put on the spot on national television I'd be able to come up with a cogent God glorifying answer that I was later satisfied with. He does keep peoples attention, and in that I could certainly take a few lessons. Further he does find some good illustrations. My criticism was made with that caveat (though I've said more just now than before) if you read back.
When I think about him, I pray for him. I think thats the best course of actions for those of us who disagree to take.
If nothing else he certainly has accumulated a lot of people and piqued their interest in God. Even if he doesn't share the Gospel with them, if they read their bible as a result of his ministry then there is some value in this ministry. We know the word of God is sharper than any two edged sword able to separate bone from marrow, and we also know that the word of the Lord does not return a void.The picture I shared was out of an irreverent sense of humor and was perhaps in bad taste. But it is funny.
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From Vocabulary.com :abondservant said:The picture I shared was out of an irreverent sense of humor and was perhaps in bad taste. But it is funny.
Originally, the word reverent was used only in religious contexts, but now it works when people are just acting like they’re in a religious setting (even if the object of their worship is a sports star or political pundit). People are occasionally reverent in regard to antique cars, supermodels, spelling bee champions and giant TV screens. Reverent is related to the verb revere, which is also about having or showing respect for someone or something.
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Well, I have to be honest periodically. I wasn't actually there. And so we're doomed to actually use the available records (early 2nd century-ish).
The curiousity is the degree to which they didn't use 'thus saith the Lord' or 'thus saith Paul' or 'thus saith Jesus' or even 'thus saith the twelve'. Indeed the Jesus one is so sparce (and the quote is more often than not, not in our gospels), that scholars can opine Jesus quotes either weren't available yet, or as a minimun unknown to at least the church in Rome.
Of course, by the late 2nd century, they'd located a NT to work with.
My favorite is the sun temple in Egypt and the phoenix (as the proof of Jesus' resurrection). That HAD to be a good proof-text. Surprisingly the sun played a decent part in early teachings.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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UMMMM. Did you reply to the wrong thread? I understood your post. Others may not.[:)]
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Didn't reply to the OP; replied to you. Joel, bless his heart, is in the same 'boat' as early Christian teachers. And unfortunately doing quite well, too.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Yes, But you seem to be replying to my post in the Other thread. >>>> http://community.logos.com/forums/p/84198/590585.aspx#590585
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Paul C ... you're probably right! I think I had to log in (I keep cookies/java off).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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[Y]Kent said:Interesting choice of words. 2. Tim. 4: 3-4 and 2 Tim. 3:2-4
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