HarperCollins Christian Acquires Olive Tree Bible Software and E-Commerce Company
Ha, ha!
Let's hope that we don't lose the publishers who come under the Harper Collins umbrella.
Sad part is the founder as advisor. Maybe it was his vision.
I'd hate to be in those kids position (OT). Business is business; founders become advisors.
EDIT: I still don't think it was fair that MJ prohibited me from quoting that really neato thread a few years back. Started with a 'Z' and ended with bad behavior.
very good news.. this is a good competition, any competitions is good for consumers, it'll drive the price down.
People need to have more choices to choose, let the creativity. innovations and evolutions drive the market.
who knows, they can gather awesome team and create better cutting edge bible software.
I'm for it.
It will only create competition IF they actually compete, which I'm not certain will happen, especially if Zondervan pulls its stable from Logos. Then you end up with Balkanization, not competition, and you have to buy and own and keep and maintain two programs to keep abreast of what's in the discourse domain...and you have to do double searches and other unpleasant irritation. I hope it doesn't go that direction...but it's ZONDERVAN...so the chances it doesn't are next to nil.
Logos irritates me because they don't want my money, and they have ditched me with a deprecated program they no longer support, and they refuse to get the notes right...but Logos will always be the thing that literally changed my life. I am invested in Logos both financially and emotionally.
But if Zondervan gets the notes right, I'm a gone pecawn!
Hee hee...just kidding...I'm kidding! [:P]
[:|]
especially if Zondervan pulls its stable from Logos
Which seems likely given the way OT has been undercutting Logos on Z resources over the last while.
especially if Zondervan pulls its stable from Logos Which seems likely given the way OT has been undercutting Logos on Z resources over the last while.
"if Zondervan pulls its stable from Logos" count on their prices going up on Olive Tree.
It might be prudent to buy up those Zondervan/Nelson titles that are on your wish list, while they are available.
Remember how suddenly Moody titles were gone?
In fact, you might even want to peruse the whole catalog for Zondervan/Nelson titles in case there's something you overlooked for your wishlist that you would want to buy while you can.
Here's a link for Zondervan (set to show only the titles you don't own yet):
https://www.logos.com/products/search?Status=Live&Publisher=Zondervan&unlocked=no&start=0&sort=bestselling&pageSize=60
And here's Nelson:
https://www.logos.com/products/search?Status=Live&Publisher=Thomas+Nelson&unlocked=no&start=0&sort=bestselling&pageSize=60
Then again, there's no guarantee that these titles will be going away. So don't go hog wild.
It might be prudent to buy up those Zondervan/Nelson titles that are on your wish list, while they are available. Remember how suddenly Moody titles were gone?
One might recall that before Zondervan was acquired by Harper Collins, they unsuccessfully made a bid into the software market with their program Pradis-STEP. When it became obvious that they lacked the in-house expertise and financial resources to compete in the marketplace, they gave up their venture, partnered with Logos, and with the initial book titles made available, offered discounts to old customers who cross-graded over. But before that time, Zondervan products were not available through Logos. To jog memories, check out this old string. It'll be interesting to see how this all plays out, for Logos as a competitor and us as consumers.
I suspect Zondervan titles are available for Kindle? If they continue to let amazon sell their product, I'd be surprised if they cease relations with Logos.
Zondervan is a really big company, I really hope they create BIG competition for the bible software market. They got connections everywhere in the world.. (solid networking)
They had experience with their Pradis software, they got good foundations.
I don't mind jumping ship
I have 5900 titles in logos, and about 5300$ invested. I won't be jumping ship; and further I refuse to open their stuff in another program. I'd sooner do without the zondervan titles I don't own, than be required to use and learn a different program.
be required to use and learn a different program.
I doubt the learning curve would be more difficult than Logos...
Logos is the most difficult bible software to navigate..
be required to use and learn a different program. I doubt the learning curve would be more difficult than Logos... Logos is the most difficult bible software to navigate..
From the article linked to in the original post:
“but we are also committed to maintaining and growing relationships with all of our current online retailer and Bible software companies.”
That's a relief. Well, I hope that growing their relationship means they will allow dynamic pricing on the Zondervan bundles. Currently, I'm not seeing it. I'm not sure if it's a licensing thing or if Logos just hasn't gotten around to doing it. Particularly these:
OT is a fine piece of software. I am happy they have a major backer now. OT is no competition to Logos. In mobile OT wins hands down, but the desktop app seems so bare bones as to be an embarrassment to their fine mobile apps.
-Dan
It is not Zondervan's policy is to allow dynamic pricing.
I know it isn't now. But that was the gist of my post. (Perhaps I wasn't clear enough.) I hope that "growing the relationship" means that in the future they will allow dynamic pricing. I'm not holding my breath, though.
Thanks for that link Rosie. Out of curiosity I went there and discovered a highly desirable resource I did not realize Logos carried. And it was only $2.99 more than my Birthday credit [<:o)]
What really seems to drive the Bible software market these days is content - people don't want to buy the same book multiple times, so it's hard to switch. You can bet the software companies like Logos know that. So if the Bible software market proves to be of a size that's worth going after for a new comer or an also-ran, the key is (1) good software (2) be able, both by license and through software, to convert existing resources to a new format. If you could move from software product A to B and take your resources, it's a new ball game.
Now this is a very daunting task and license issues most certainly prevent it today I would think, but none of these problems are insurmountable if money can be applied to the solution - money to influence publishers to modify licenses, and money for the technology team to convert resources. But this could happen if the market gets big enough - it has happened in quite a few software markets where the conversion challenges are much more substantial than in this market IMHO.
I welcome the competition. While I love Logos, I grow very tired of the lack of attention of so many usability things (my personal pet peeves these days are the long-standing lack of attention on Personal Books, Info Pane is unusable, Notes needs more attention, and searching My Content is as sophisticated as Google in 1996; but there are others). And then you see new additions to the Library, most of which are very nice, and such obvious issues exist like tags are truncated in entry and display, and we don't even get any acknowledgement to fix it? How much time does it take to put a yellow bubble over the tag on mouse-hover to see the whole name?
There are so many days I wonder if anyone at Logos uses the product, they couldn't possibly see some of the things we do and think the product is easy, intuitive, or in some cases even functional given the size and sophistication of what we have now.
Second and related, I also grow tired of the lack of transparency by Logos on their plans - how many threads are asking for updates on things, and the requests are just ignored. Logos has said in the past they don't want to offer updates because when their intent doesn't happen they get criticized for it, but from my recollection they get criticized more for silence - when they put out a thoughtful update, which almost all are, 95% of the user base commends them and thanks them for the update.
I know sadly that Logos knows these complaints, there is nothing new here.
You know what would be something?
If HarperCollins bought the print division of Moody Publishing.
Dan, you're dreaming (saying that smilingly).
Little groups lost in big groups where the culture is the big group is almost never a good thing. If Logos had bought OT, that'd be a good thing (similar cultures/product/people).
Z-company doesn't have a good track record for inept patience.
And abondservant ... you have too much time on your hands (ease of use not significant). When a competitor has a lower price and easier to use, disaster is in the making. Like a slow drip in the sink.
[:#][H][8-|]
it's gonna be an adventure
LaRosa, don't you work for one of these Bible software companies now?
PL,
Yes, I work for Olive Tree (since Jan '13). Before that it was WORDsearch/Lifeway ('07-'13).
This is really interesting news! I can't imagine HCC bringing Bible Gateway and Olive Tree under the same umbrella just for the fun of it. They must have a plan.
Today's market is about light, mobile apps connecting to your data wherever you are so I could easily see Logos getting cornered into a niche if they are slow at reacting.
They must have a plan.
I'm thinking that they are hoping to work toward people eventually saying "LifeChurch who?"
Or at least put more than a 10% dent in it.
News like this makes me think more and more that Biblia.com (or its next iteration) is the future of Logos.
I know there is a lot of resistance to an always-online app but an offline/online app built on Web principles has a lot of benefits.
I won't be jumping ship; and further I refuse to open their stuff in another program. I'd sooner do without the zondervan titles I don't own, than be required to use and learn a different program.
Agree. My sentiments exactly. I'll only be buying resources for Logos from here on out. Way too much time and energy and money invested. To me, it would be wrong of any company to rock a boat that does SO WELL serving the needs of Bible Students, Authors, Pastors and Academicians. Any hurt to Logos hurts all of us who have waited for a program like Logos - that offered MANY publishers at great prices in a software engine that excels in every thing it does. I am curious to know how many LOGOS users are out there. Do we know?
I am wondering about Logos' partnership with Knox and DTS. Do these seminaries have required Zondervan resources for their students?
This is a good business decision. Lifeway bought WORDSearch and now Harper Collins Christian buys Olive Tree. This cuts out the middle man in an increasingly digital age and allows two publishers direct access to an existing base of Bible software users and buyers.
It would not be good business as a publisher to align with only one 'delivery' product. Zondervan did that. Abingdon did that. Both 'saw the light,' backed off that position, and no doubt have increased sales as a result. Unfortunately Moody and Logos had a 'falling out' but that's already been discussed to death.
Is Harper Collins mostly interested in Olive Tree's mobile capability? That is probably where the consumer Bible software market is headed. Desktop apps will continue to have a loyal following among 'power' users until mobile apps catch up (if ever), but most folks will settle for a mobile app that does some basic things well. Olive Tree should benefit from the deep pockets of Harper Collins, consumers will enjoy a better product, and Harper Collins will almost certainly make more money in the end. I have no problems with that.
Sorry, I misunderstood, abondservant!
Mark ... you've bounced your pickup off the road (for the first time). The reason there's retail stores; convenience. On the web, 52 publishers to read each set of books is positively nutty. That's why Amazon has such a stranglehold on the publishers: convenience.
Plus my observation is that organizations (almost) never learn. Cultures control. Zondervan saw a small outfit, thought 'what the hey ... let's see what'll come up for air'. With a big boy like Amazon facing them down, and Olivetree's competitive edge being cheaply tieing verses together (that IS all it does, A and B-Company do the heavy lifting), I think they're nuts.
They'd need to buy another company to make it work. Bibleworks would be good.
The reason there's retail stores; convenience. On the web, 52 publishers to read each set of books is positively nutty. That's why Amazon has such a stranglehold on the publishers: convenience.
I think you are treating Bible study and reading books as the same thing. I don't have Olive Tree but know it has more features than Kindle, even if, as you say, it is just linking verses together. Agreed that there are many readers. No need to buy and own another one. If you are a publisher you want your stuff able to be read by any reader. More sales. Zondervan stays on as many devises and readers as possible. Not so many Bible study apps or programs, so if you want to tap into that market it makes sense for a larger company to buy someone who's already doing it. That is what Harper Collins just did. (Of course we have no access to their rationale, but from outside it seems like a good move and doesn't need to be anti-competitive.)
Olivetree has quick searches of your open text, as well as a decent and quick passage guide. The original language look up is not the same as Logos but powerful enough. I have taken a screen shot of the Desktop App which is too barebones but gives you an idea of what it offers.
I love Olive Tree's Resource Guide -- fast, usable offline, clear and simple. If only they have more robust commentaries available.
Peter
Oh, I've no doubt OT's a nice product. Maybe pull Logos' chain a bit during contract talks.
But in corporate-land, you have to deliver your division results. Sell product with margin. Quarterly.
I just worry for the OT staff; having been in the executive ranks, pulling the plug is an accounting issue. Nothing more.
(Of course we have no access to their rationale...)
I think that maybe it becomes somewhat clear when you think about the one man who is behind HC, and what seems to be his determination to have a large presence/ownership in Christian publishing.
I love Olive Tree's Resource Guide -- fast, usable offline, clear and simple. If only they have more robust commentaries available. Peter
Well they have a fair selection including:
So I think they have a fair amount available although of course nothing compared to Logos.
Thanks Dan, I stand corrected.
Finding the funds to buy them is a different issue.
News like this makes me think more and more that Biblia.com (or its next iteration) is the future of Logos. I know there is a lot of resistance to an always-online app but an offline/online app built on Web principles has a lot of benefits.
Look at LifeChurch, 40 million downloads with web only access.
The most recent 10 million downloads have come since they started implementing offline resources.
[^o)] Look at all the entertainment available - both cheap and expensive "sollutions" available both in the Bible Study Software and the TV and rock-concert industries. If everyone else jumps off a cliff I won't though:
Look at LifeChurch, 40 million downloads with web only access. The most recent 10 million downloads have come since they started implementing offline resources.
Look at what OliveTree offers - have only the Logos software, then avoid those resources in Logos.
Thanks Dan, I stand corrected. Finding the funds to buy them is a different issue.
I know that for sure... the one thing about OT I will say I like is often many of their resources go on sale on at a very deep discount. But there is always something else that would be nice to have... thankfully I have most all i need.
It's easy to lower the prices on the worst scholarship/theology.
lol I laugh because the last thing I got was New International Commentary for $600.... which i think is useful but many consider it the best commentary out there...
What really seems to drive the Bible software market these days is content - people don't want to buy the same book multiple times, so it's hard to switch. You can bet the software companies like Logos know that. So if the Bible software market proves to be of a size that's worth going after for a new comer or an also-ran, the key is (1) good software (2) be able, both by license and through software, to convert existing resources to a new format. If you could move from software product A to B and take your resources, it's a new ball game. Now this is a very daunting task and license issues most certainly prevent it today I would think, but none of these problems are insurmountable if money can be applied to the solution - money to influence publishers to modify licenses, and money for the technology team to convert resources. But this could happen if the market gets big enough - it has happened in quite a few software markets where the conversion challenges are much more substantial than in this market IMHO.
Until the next Supreme Court ruling on copyright. When some one convinces the nine that we bought the contents and not the format. And all the licenses prohibiting moving resources between programs are declared null and void. [[Yes, I know that that is wishful thinking]]
