Personal Books in PDF, MOBI or EPUB
It seems to me that DOCX is easily in no higher than fourth place world wide for digital books. PDF, MOBI and EPUB seem to be the clear winners for ebooks in front of DOCX. Making everyone convert to a lesser functioned ebook format before going into Logos doesn't seem to make good long-term sense.
Is Logos working to include these formats for Personal Books?
I've gone "all-in" with Logos just recently in the last 3 months although I first tried it more than 8 years ago in seminary. I now absolutely love it. The UI has been greatly improved. The personal books area is the one where I feel it most needs to be brought up to current day standards...
- Tim
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Tim Kimberley said:
It seems to me that DOCX is easily in no higher than fourth place world wide for digital books. PDF, MOBI and EPUB seem to be the clear winners for ebooks in front of DOCX. Making everyone convert to a lesser functioned ebook format before going into Logos doesn't seem to make good long-term sense.
For clarification: ".docx" isn't an ebook format... and the tool is called "personal books" for a reason. Logos doesn't intend for you to purchase eBooks in other formats to include in your library... they want you to purchase the books from them. The tool is designed for you to take YOUR content (hence "personal") and create an eBook which is compatible with your Logos digital library. This feature is a "loss leader" in a way for the company. They don't make money by providing this service... they certainly wouldn't want to make it very easy to purchase books elsewhere and bring them into your library.
Set aside the legal issue of converting a book from another format (i.e. Kindle)... The publisher's and other retailers certainly don't want you to be able to easily convert the files... and the technical challenges of converting PDF's is steep. Many PDF's are nothing more than a photograph... there isn't any "selectable" text.
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Aside from what alabama has mentioned, there would be great difficulty in tagging those other formats. The benefit of using docx is that you have a tool to add the necessary tagging to really make your PBs work well in your library.
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alabama24,
I definitely appreciate your quick response. I disagree that personal books should be seen as a loss leader. I work in a similar field and have found out that it isn't a loss for people to consider you the center of their world. Let personal books only be searched at an archaic level. Buy it from logos and it will be all linked up and tagged up. I really want logos to be the center of my Christian reading world. The inability of importing my own epubs and mobi books forces me to live in dual worlds (Logos & Kindle). I also have to remember...was that book one I have in kindle or is it in the Logos world?
I don't like the Kindle reader. I think the Logos experience is far superior. I just purchased an epub book today from a reputable ministry, I really wanted to read the book and search it for future blog posts and possible sermons...the title wasn't available through Logos.
I will probably spend around $3,000 in resources from logos over the next year or so and I am not trying to stab logos in the back. It's frustrating if Logos thinks the personal resources is not a viable area. There's a reason why spotify and itunes let you import your own music. 2 reasons. 1.) They search your stuff and then they know what you like. They then sell you much more of what you like because they've seen all your personal collection. It ends up exponentially increasing sales. 2.) They know you will grow accustomed to being in a certain ecosystem. If you spend hours reading your own personal collection of hundreds of books in the Logos ecosystem you'll stay in that ecosystem and convenience will prevail and you will buy more and more over time from their ecosystem.
Anyway, my purpose isn't to rant. As Executive Director of a ministry I simply want to share my experience and then say as user I think Logos will make more money from me in the long-term if they let me import and even store in the cloud my personal epub books.
Digital Right concerns aren't a viable long-term concern since all you need to do is have the person agree to terms/conditions when they are uploading letting you know they have legally obtained the ebooks.
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.docx is a SOURCE FILE format. I'd be willing to bet that the people creating .EPUB and .MOBI files from scratch have to start in a word processor too, very likely Word. That's usually where PDF files come from too (except when they are scanned).
I think you are trying to compare apples with oranges. Here's a graphic to make it clearer:
.DOCX --> LOGOS4
.DOCX --> EPUB
.DOCX --> MOBI
.DOCX --> PDF
Logos reads LOGOS4 files,not DOCX files. The personal book compiler (which is built in to Logos) compiles DOCX files into LOGOS4 format for Logos to read.
Logos has chosen to have a proprietary ebook format instead of using the common EPUB, MOBI or PDF formats because they can do much more with it than they'd be able to do otherwise.
They are not open to changing this. Kindle books use DRM (digital rights management) so they aren't easily converted to other formats, and even if they could be hacked into some other format, this would generally be illegal (except with public domain books).
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Tim Kimberley said:
I definitely appreciate your quick response. I disagree that personal books should be seen as a loss leader.
If you disagree, you don't understand the definition of "loss leader." Your own arguments agree with my position.
Tim Kimberley said:Digital Right concerns aren't a viable long-term concern since all you need to do is have the person agree to terms/conditions when they are uploading letting you know they have legally obtained the ebooks.
That doesn't fly. Ever hear of Napster? If Logos were to create a tool which allowed users to break the copyright protection other companies put in place, they would be sued out of business. The legality of converting ebooks from one format to another (by breaking copy protection) may be up in the air, but there is a reason that there aren't any real businesses providing that service for a fee... just as there are no companies providing the ability to break DVD/BLU-RAY copy protection.
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Your ministry looks interesting Tim. [:)]
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Let's say I buy a beautiful new Lambourgini. It's a fine, fine car and there is so much I can do with it! I can enjoy the lovely, luxury leather smell, and cherish the dunkelblau paint job. I can plant my hindparts solidly in the bucket seats, fasten my seat belt and start the radio. I can turn the key and run the smooth, gliding windshield wipers and from inside, using electricity, I can make windows and doorlocks go up and down marvelously. I can even have a picnic with my (small) family in there, even in the pouring rain. When my neighbors go by they can say "Why, that's a mighty nice car old Cyrus Teeesdiddle has there!"
Now it would be nice to have gas as well for my fine car, but Lambourghini doesn't make or sell gas. I have to get that myself. Buy it, make it, whatever. And do so legally. The car does contain an engine, a marvelous one at that, which ran just fine from the factory. Lamborghini profits not only from the sale of the auto, but from the sale of its many parts -- especially if I drive my car as fast as I really like to. The engine does have the ability to convert gas (from which Lambourgini does not profit) into power for my personal needs which really adds "vroooom" to my car.
So is it a lossleader for Lamborghini to install a gas tank?
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There are ways of debatable legality to convert kindle (or any other book format) to .docx so that you can compile them as a PB into Logos.Tim Kimberley said:alabama24,
I definitely appreciate your quick response. I disagree that personal books should be seen as a loss leader. I work in a similar field and have found out that it isn't a loss for people to consider you the center of their world. Let personal books only be searched at an archaic level. Buy it from logos and it will be all linked up and tagged up. I really want logos to be the center of my Christian reading world. The inability of importing my own epubs and mobi books forces me to live in dual worlds (Logos & Kindle). I also have to remember...was that book one I have in kindle or is it in the Logos world?
I don't like the Kindle reader. I think the Logos experience is far superior. I just purchased an epub book today from a reputable ministry, I really wanted to read the book and search it for future blog posts and possible sermons...the title wasn't available through Logos.
I will probably spend around $3,000 in resources from logos over the next year or so and I am not trying to stab logos in the back. It's frustrating if Logos thinks the personal resources is not a viable area. There's a reason why spotify and itunes let you import your own music. 2 reasons. 1.) They search your stuff and then they know what you like. They then sell you much more of what you like because they've seen all your personal collection. It ends up exponentially increasing sales. 2.) They know you will grow accustomed to being in a certain ecosystem. If you spend hours reading your own personal collection of hundreds of books in the Logos ecosystem you'll stay in that ecosystem and convenience will prevail and you will buy more and more over time from their ecosystem.
Anyway, my purpose isn't to rant. As Executive Director of a ministry I simply want to share my experience and then say as user I think Logos will make more money from me in the long-term if they let me import and even store in the cloud my personal epub books.
Digital Right concerns aren't a viable long-term concern since all you need to do is have the person agree to terms/conditions when they are uploading letting you know they have legally obtained the ebooks.
There is always argumentation back and forth when this comes back up as to its legality - but from a pragmatic perspective - I suspect so long as you aren't spreading such books around, and aren't making PB's of things Logos sells you're probably ok. IIRC it involves Calibre and a plugin from some guy who goes by the name of aprenticealf.
I have to say this made me chuckle - and as much as I would like to see some improvements in the PB area (syncing them across devices is my priority) - I don't think your gas tank analogy and the situation at Logos is a 1:1 analogy. Logos runs on books, Logos the company sells books. Cars run on Gas, and while Lambo makes lots of parts that require gas, to my knowledge they don't have their own brand of premium petrol products.Gao Lu said:Let's say I buy a beautiful new Lambourgini. It's a fine, fine car and there is so much I can do with it! I can enjoy the lovely, luxury leather smell, and cherish the dunkelblau paint job. I can plant my hindparts solidly in the bucket seats, fasten my seat belt and start the radio. I can turn the key and run the smooth, gliding windshield wipers and from inside, using electricity, I can make windows and doorlocks go up and down marvelously. I can even have a picnic with my (small) family in there, even in the pouring rain. When my neighbors go by they can say "Why, that's mighty nice car old Cyrus Teeesdiddle has there!"
Now it would be nice to have gas as well for my fine car, but Lambourghini doesn't make or sell gas. I have to get that myself. Buy it, make it, whatever. And do so legally. Th car does contain an engine, a marvelous one at that, which ran just fine from the factory. Lamborghini profits not only from the sale of the auto, but from the sale of its many parts -- especially if I drive my car as fast as I really like to. The engine does have the ability to convert gas (from which Lambourgini does not profit) into power for my personal needs which really adds "vroooom" to my car."
So is it a lossleader for Lamborghini to install a gas tank?
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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I think where the misunderstanding is happening is people assume if you have a epub or mobi format that you got it illegally or ripped it out of Kindle. My example was legally purchasing a book from Ligonier that was sold only in epub and mobi formats and is not included in the complete RC Sproul collection from Logos. I wanted the RC Sproul book to be natively imported into logos for searching with all the native epub links in place.
Additionally, one of my favorite Bible commentators is Dr. Tom Constable. My understanding is he has purposefully decided to wait until he dies for his commentary to be published (he wants to update it every year throughout his lifetime.) With the rise of either self-published works or people like Dr. Constable there will be many epubs that are legitimate Bible Study options that can't be found in kindle and/or logos.
Yes, I agree with others that illegal activity should be stopped (like napster). But including your own personal collection (like itunes) should also be considered. I have written 4 iPhone apps in the app store so I am definitely sensitive to piracy. I think it's wrong, however, to assume someone with an epub came about it the wrong way or is trying in some sinful way to rob logos. I think Logos should be secure in their amazing product and trust people to not abuse their ecosystem...hopefully, people interested in Logos have a certain amount of conviction to do what is right.
Alabama, I'm not sure if you work for Logos, since you have so many posts I'm assuming you represent Logos...if not I'd love to hear from actual Logos staff.
thank you again,
Tim0 -
Gao Lu said:
So is it a lossleader for Lamborghini to install a gas tank?
No. That is the business Lamborghini is in. The sell cars... with gas tanks. Logos doesn't sell software... they sell resources. As part of their business model, they develop the PBB tool. This causes a loss for the company money (they don't make money on it) in the hopes that it will lead customers to continue making purchases on the platform. Hence a "loss leader." [Developing the core engine isn't a loss leader since it is a NECESSARY part of the core business].
Frequently a grocery store in town alternates selling coke & pepsi products at 40% below walmart's price. That is a loss leader. The LOSE money on the sale in an effort to LEAD customers into the store to purchase other products at a higher profit margin.
If you want to go the automotive route... A car dealership in town every few weeks makes a big deal in the newspaper and radio ads about a GREAT DEAL on a car. They make little to no profit on that ONE car, knowing that getting customers onto the lot will drive more sales. Only one person gets the "great deal" (it's never me [:)]), but others drive away with emotionally purchased cars.
Casinos do something similar. They purposefully set machines to to create enough winners to cause more people to waste their money.
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Tim Kimberley said:
Alabama, I'm not sure if you work for Logos, since you have so many posts I'm assuming you represent Logos...if not I'd love to hear from actual Logos staff.
I don't work for Logos or represent them. I am just a volunteer. [:)] You <might> hear from Logos, but it is unlikely. Of course, my mentioning this makes it exponentially more likely that you will. [:D]
Tim Kimberley said:I think where the misunderstanding is happening is people assume if you have a epub or mobi format that you got it illegally or ripped it out of Kindle.
No one is assuming that. But what percentage of ePub's & mobis do you think come from sources outside of 1) Amazon 2) Amazon 3) Amazon and 4) Nook? And of those which don't come from those places, most still come from some sort of eCommerce store which don't intend for you to mess with the copy protection. Also, that is the same argument used for Napster. Yes, there were legitimate uses for it (the courts ruled). No, there weren't proper safeguards put in place to protect against the fraud (which was the bulk of Napster's business).
Tim Kimberley said:My example was legally purchasing a book from Ligonier that was sold only in epub and mobi formats and is not included in the complete RC Sproul collection from Logos.
Which book?
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Tim Kimberley said:
I'd love to hear from actual Logos staff.
I did remember a post from a Logos employee about PDF's:
Bradley Grainger (Logos) said:We do not plan to implement PDF import at this time. (It would be a significantly complex and expensive undertaking.) Instead, we recommend using a PDF to Word converter, of which there are many available. Reviews and recommendations of these products have been posted on the forums several times, e.g., http://community.logos.com/forums/t/46204.aspx http://community.logos.com/forums/t/76761.aspx
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Here's the book that originally spurred my desire for direct import of epub into personal books...second look it is offered through Ligonier but not written by Sproul. It's free for a limited time:
http://www.ligonier.org/store/the-poetic-wonder-of-isaac-watts-hardcover/
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If it is helpful, this could be an example:
http://www.ligonier.org/store/are-we-together-a-protestant-analyzes-roman-catholicism-mobi/
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I would like to see this happen for public domain works. While I prefer to do extended reading on a eInk device (where mobi and epub are welcome), there are works that I could add that would be worth having in Logos for searching and reference. (eg http://www.gutenberg.us/)
I do agree that Logos doesn't directly benefit and to a degree it might be shooting themselves in the foot a bit, competing with CPs. But 1) Logos is library software so it make sense to support several formats so users can collect all their stuff together and 2) companies do benefit from good will features that satisfy a large user base. Good will features (that don't directly profit), fine tuning, optimization, make software a pleasure to use and hook people so they keep coming back with a smile on their faces. It's not enough to be functionally complete; Let it sing and dance (Ok, it's already got some good moves there, but...). I do think features like this are obvious and show users that it's not always just a business (recognizing that they do actually show this a good bit with tons of free resources and other gestures).
Amazon is a good example of where this works. They provide a lot of free sales & public domain works (Over 60 pages just in Religious -> Christianity). And it generates good will, and although they might loose a few sales, the good will will bring people back to make other purchases. iTunes is another example. You can import music/audiobooks from any service, but it hooks you on the whole iTunes/iPod experience. They loose a few sales but win rabid fans.
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Tim Kimberley said:
Here's the book that originally spurred my desire for direct import of epub into personal books...second look it is offered through Ligonier but not written by Sproul. It's free for a limited time:
http://www.ligonier.org/store/the-poetic-wonder-of-isaac-watts-hardcover/
Tim, There are ways to convert ebooks between formats, and (admitedly convoluted, but workable) get them into docx format and thence into pbb format. See THIS explanation (scroll down to Mitchell's post for step by step instructions).
"I read dead people..."
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[quote]Tim Kimberley said:Here's the book that originally spurred my desire for direct import of epub into personal books...second look it is offered through Ligonier but not written by Sproul. It's free for a limited time:
http://www.ligonier.org/store/the-poetic-wonder-of-isaac-watts-hardcover/
You may download, store, print, and copy selected portions of the Content of this site, provided you:
- Only use the Content you download for your personal, noncommercial use or to further your business dealings with Ligonier Ministries
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- Do not modify or alter the Content in any way or delete or modify any copyright or trademark notices or notices of confidentiality
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Looks like so long as you don't share it you can make the conversion. As mentioned before, calibre, and the plugin by aprenticealf. Follow alf's directions and you'll be up and converting in no time.
That said you're going to be lacking some of the basic tagging and so forth that logos books provide.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Rosie Perera said:
They are not open to changing this. Kindle books use DRM (digital rights management) so they aren't easily converted to other formats, and even if they could be hacked into some other format, this would generally be illegal (except with public domain books).
Are you sure about that? Even for personal use in order to read a copy that you purchased in a different Ereader? I am not convinced that is so, but would like to know if it is so.
Certainly, it would be illegal to share or distribute such material. But I am not sure that it is illegal to buy a book from Kindle and convert it to another format.
But I am not a lawyer, and would like to know for sure.
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Michael Childs said:Rosie Perera said:
They are not open to changing this. Kindle books use DRM (digital rights management) so they aren't easily converted to other formats, and even if they could be hacked into some other format, this would generally be illegal (except with public domain books).
Are you sure about that? Even for personal use in order to read a copy that you purchased in a different Ereader? I am not convinced that is so, but would like to know if it is so.
Certainly, it would be illegal to share or distribute such material. But I am not sure that it is illegal to buy a book from Kindle and convert it to another format.
But I am not a lawyer, and would like to know for sure.
I'm not a lawyer, so I don't know for sure either. I believe we are allowed to make copies of music in different formats for our own personal use. But I think it hasn't been tested in court yet for book content. And I'm not sure whether having copy protection technology on the content changes things. I think it is illegal to reverse engineer software, so if the people who wrote the software that breaks DRM copy protection did something illegal, and you use their software to make a (albeit legal) copy for yourself, then are you doing something illegal? All fuzzy areas. I prefer to stay away from it for now until it's clearly delineated for us what we can and cannot do.
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Amazon has Kindle Store Terms of Use => http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=hp_left_v4_sib/182-3074246-9602625?ie=UTF8&nodeId=201014950 that includes:
1. Kindle Content
Use of Kindle Content. Upon your download of Kindle Content and payment of any applicable fees (including applicable taxes), the Content Provider grants you a non-exclusive right to view, use, and display such Kindle Content an unlimited number of times, solely on the Kindle or a Reading Application or as otherwise permitted as part of the Service, solely on the number of Kindles or Supported Devices specified in the Kindle Store, and solely for your personal, non-commercial use. Kindle Content is licensed, not sold, to you by the Content Provider. The Content Provider may include additional terms for use within its Kindle Content. Those terms will also apply, but this Agreement will govern in the event of a conflict. Some Kindle Content, such as Periodicals, may not be available to you through Reading Applications.
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Logos has an End User License Agreement (EULA) => https://www.logos.com/support/EULA
Keep Smiling [:)]
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Amazon has Kindle Store Terms of Use => http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html/ref=hp_left_v4_sib/182-3074246-9602625?ie=UTF8&nodeId=201014950 that includes:
1. Kindle Content
Use of Kindle Content. Upon your download of Kindle Content and payment of any applicable fees (including applicable taxes), the Content Provider grants you a non-exclusive right to view, use, and display such Kindle Content an unlimited number of times, solely on the Kindle or a Reading Application or as otherwise permitted as part of the Service, solely on the number of Kindles or Supported Devices specified in the Kindle Store, and solely for your personal, non-commercial use. Kindle Content is licensed, not sold, to you by the Content Provider. The Content Provider may include additional terms for use within its Kindle Content. Those terms will also apply, but this Agreement will govern in the event of a conflict. Some Kindle Content, such as Periodicals, may not be available to you through Reading Applications.
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Logos has an End User License Agreement (EULA) => https://www.logos.com/support/EULA
Keep Smiling
Yes, I realize that. But companies claim rights that they do not have the legal right to claim all the time. Music publishers claimed the same thing until the Courts slapped their hands. It is stealing to misuse copyrighted material. It is also stealing when companies claim rights they do not have. What we need is courts to settle the matter clearly.
The fact that Kindle does not take the many free sources of software to defeat their DRM to court makes me wonder if they have the rights they claim.
Regardless, the copyright situation is far too fuzzy and confused in this country. There should be a simple database to check if a work is copyrighted or not. If someone wants to enforce a copyright, they should be required to register it in such a database. This should not be hard to fix.
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I have in the past use a DRM removal tool to place a book i wanted in my old Library computer, it gets used at prayer time and the old PowerPC is more than enough computer. I am not worried about being prosecuted because even though what I have done may be technically illegal, I am not redistributing them and do not think I am in any greater danger of being prosecuted than the DVDs I own that are ripped to a hard drive on my Airport for convenience of accessing them with my iPad. DRM is not an evil thing but it can get in the way of us legally using items we own. Whatever government organization in Canada dealing with this I am sure they are much more concerned with illegal copying and not people dwelling in an area that is grey.
-Dan
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I agree with the sentiment. It's frustrating to go to four libraries to search and compare notes: Logos, Kindle, iBook (ePub), and then PDF. I would love to have my library centralized.i don't understand the necessity of conversion. Would it not be possible for Logos to have add ons so that it can search, or at least read, the aforementioned format? Why does it have to convert to use them? With iTunes I can import multiple formats without converting them, and now with their Match program, any songs I have, even purchased elsewhere, are available in the cloud. It's brilliant. And in the end, they are right, I will almost always purchase from iTunes simply because it is preferred and all my stuff is there.0
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114059 said:
I agree with the sentiment. It's frustrating to go to four libraries to search and compare notes: Logos, Kindle, iBook (ePub), and then PDF. I would love to have my library centralized. i don't understand the necessity of conversion. Would it not be possible for Logos to have add ons so that it can search, or at least read, the aforementioned format? Why does it have to convert to use them? With iTunes I can import multiple formats without converting them, and now with their Match program, any songs I have, even purchased elsewhere, are available in the cloud. It's brilliant. And in the end, they are right, I will almost always purchase from iTunes simply because it is preferred and all my stuff is there.
Welcome [:)]
I don't think your analysis is fair. To consider iTunes... First, there are a few formats which you don't need to convert. Will iTunes play copy protected proprietary formats? Nope. Music Match is great! But it also costs a fee, which the music companies have agreed to. Furthermore, Apple makes money on selling hardware and "plain jane" media. Logos is in the business of selling "value added" resources. They don't sell the software. If you could easily import ANY resource into Logos, why would you buy from them? McDonalds doesn't allow you to get a free refill from your Burger King cup for a reason. [;)]
With that said, Logos has done a great job of letting you add your personal books, in a fairly simple method.
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I agree with you it would be nice if Logos had this feature.
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For all the reasons discussed I don't see it happening.
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If Logos isn't selling software why did I have to pay $205 to upgrade from 8 to 9 with no extras?
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Welcome! [:)]
Richard Bouvia said:If Logos isn't selling software why did I have to pay $205 to upgrade from 8 to 9 with no extras?
First of all, this is a really old thread and I am unsure what your post has to do with the topic. If you have a question about the original topic, please let us know. As for your question, the software is indeed free. You may return what you paid for and wait until the free engine is released sometime in the coming year. The software is always free... you pay for resources and data sets (some features).
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Firstly, as I understand the full feature set of the updates is not the free one offered, it's the basic edition that eventually becomes free, but I will check with an actual employee on that. I had talked to a salesperson and they stated that the upgrades are usually around $400 and that my rate is $205 for just the Upgrade from the full 8 feature set to the full 9 feature set.
Secondly, I came to this with a search with the same goal as the other poster, I own many purchased items from Ligonier and it would be great to import them all. I also spent over $2000 on Logos. So I don't agree with you that they would lose money. Which we are all entitled to our opinions.
Thirdly, I wasn't being condescending as your reply seems to be.
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