What could be your suggestion?
A pastor taught about ,how a Christian family should be according to the Word of God, at the end of his service he asked to the Congregation ,mentioning about a certain part of his country like this: “ Some people before coming to the Lord they had five wives and have children from them, in the new testament one man should have one wife ,what would be your suggestion? “The question is what should be done?
I appriciate your contribution.
Blessings in Christ.
Comments
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Tes, see if this search works. Will launch Logos and search your library for the subject of polygamy
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Well firstly I presume that he is currently married to five wives, and doesn't instead have five ex wives.
Under that construct, I'd say as a pastor - legally - if you were told this during a counseling session you don't have to report it to the police. If he says he has thought out a way to kill someone, bought the materials, and has figured out that may the 8th is the day he'll do the dirty deed - then not speaking up may make you liable.
From a pastor approach perspective - I would be operating on the assumption that 1. he doesn't read his bible, and 2. he is likely not saved. I would feel him out on the second point and purposely spend time with him seeking opportunities for evangelism, and encouraging him to read his bible. God has a tendency to clean people up through promptings (directed at the individual) of the Holy Spirit.
I don't think the individual can be legally married to five women concurrently; there are the odd few that marry one woman in one state, the second somewhere else, and so forth. Eventually the paperwork catches up with them. The few times I've heard of polygamists they had only one true spouse (one marriage certificate) and several other women who in his mind will have wife status, but from a legal perspective do not.
Thus if he came to me asking what to do, I would try to lead him to the conclusion that he ought to honor his marriage vow to the one he is legally married to, support the rest financially - especially the children, and he and his wife ought to not live with the other four.
If he's currently able to support a household of 6 adults and at least 5 kids, then he's most likely not making minimum wage.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Hi Tes,
Are you asking about our theological thoughts regarding this subject, or about some Logos resources that might be relevant? Seems like it would be tough to have a conversation without it violating forum rules.
Your question seems like an excellent subject for Russell Moore's Christian Ethics final exam [example]. He may be too busy now, but he would often tackle questions like these on his blog. I believe that Bryan Chapell helps his students wrestle through questions like that as well, but I did not see it in any of his written material in my Logos library.
Starting from Matt 19:3-9, I think the interesting questions are: 1) Are those five marriages actually marriages? 2) If you answer the first affirmatively, then you have to choose to break the creation ordinance of marriage no matter what you do (the one-flesh-union, already broken, or the not-separating part). One final question I would have is, does 1 Tim 3:2 offer any context to the situation?
Your brother, Bill
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abondservant said:
I don't think the individual can be legally married to five women concurrently;
I believe this depends on the country you live in, and I think Tes is outside the US, if I recall correctly. This isn't an issue we really have to deal with in the US, but there are many parts of the world where they would have to face this.
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Actually Utah, I think, just gave up on a polygamy case they weren't having much success with.
And Kenya, I think, just legalized it.
Plus of course polygamy was pretty much ok-ish as long as you stuck with the OT. In the NT, the problem becomes Roman law and whether Jesus was limiting his discussion to dumping non-polygamous wives only.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Tes said:
A pastor taught about ,how a Christian family should be according to the Word of God, at the end of his service he asked to the Congregation ,mentioning about a certain part of his country like this: “ Some people before coming to the Lord they had five wives and have children from them, in the new testament one man should have one wife ,what would be your suggestion? “The question is what should be done?
I appriciate your contribution.
To give the hardline plain response:
I would collect the OT and NT writings that talk about marriage and divorce. A person that is a mature Christian that is 'apt to teach' should be able to undertake this task.
The NT doesn't give an answer for this particular topic ( word for word what you are asking ).
However overall (AFTER collecting and analyzing these passages), it is a reasonable conclusion that the first wife is the legitimate wife ( and must be regarded as the wife ). The rest of the wives should be given a writing of divorcement:
and as a Christian:
(1) be given an honorable divorcement, without discrediting her as a faithful wife. ( ie tell the truth )
(2) The other wives should be given as much financial aid and / or aid in finding a suitable legitimate husband as is applicable ( none the less, what I mean is that the husband ought to divorce the others. )
I write this plainly to give you my answer. All I can say is do not lack Christian care in such a situation to be a good example to the divorced wives. Do what you can ( I am speaking to the husband ). If the Church can help, let them to help too.
In good conscience before the Lord, let the husband not faint or be ashamed to do what is right in this case.
With Christian care.
LGI.
P.S ( Let this comment be weighed with all of the other advice you get. I do not aim to give you an answer that is disagreeable to what is right. Perhaps you will find a pattern amongst those who advise you )
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The husband in question should seek psychological help. He obviously has a persecution complex.Tes said:Some people before coming to the Lord they had five wives and have children from them, “The question is what should be done?
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I don't agree with polygamy, would never consider it, but if he lives in a country where it is permitted and if he is already married then he is responsible for his family and should continue to take care of them.
Totally personal opinion. Nothing whatsoever to back it up. I just feel the Lord would expect us to take responsibility for our actions and that He would hate divorce more than entering in to a marriage contract with multiple wives, before salvation.
However, from the wording of the question (some people, they had), I'm not sure the pastor was trying to make a argument about this specific case, but I could be reading that wrong. It sounds more like he's trying to get people to consider right vs wrong and whether there are shades of grey. It's a case where there seem to be conflicts between multiple commandments: Have only one wife, Do not divorce.
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I am in Europe,but what I am talking about is outside of Europe, I don't feel comfartable to reveal the identity of the Pastor and the place where he mentioned,but for the sake of clarification, the law of the country will not affect any one of them as long as there is no reason of quarelling among them. They marry them legally just like one man and woman, the men have come to the Lord with all their wives ,as new testament believers what is going to be done? what should the church do?
Blessings in Christ.
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Tes said:
A pastor taught about ,how a Christian family should be according to the Word of God, at the end of his service he asked to the Congregation ,mentioning about a certain part of his country like this: “ Some people before coming to the Lord they had five wives and have children from them, in the new testament one man should have one wife ,what would be your suggestion? “The question is what should be done?
My suggestion would be to advise this pastor to get a decent bible software (such as Logos), but maybe a worn printed bible may do as well to see that in the NT not "one man" should have one wife, but that this is a requirement for elders in the church.
There might be resources in a Logos library that discuss missions/church-building in African or Muslim context. Top of my head I think I saw a discussion of this in the WEA library
I'll need to do more specific searching later, but I don't remember reading anyone arguing for a breakup of the polygamic family (AFAIK this is also secular law in European countries: even though polygamous marriages can not be performed, existing marriage relations, e.g. from Saudi Arabia, are always respected to their full extent in European jurisdictions - including eligibility for social welfare payments etc. - under the assumption that sovereign states may rule marriage as they choose and reciprocally accept the legality of such). Christian churches typically will not allow adding another wife, though.
The discussion, however, always concentrates on what exactly Paul meant (there are even positions that hold Paul requires elders to be married, i.e. to have at least one wife or to be undivorced) and whether Paul's requirements for elders are timeless and stand in a different culture (which may mean that the otherwise most able and resourceful men in a local culture are not to be elders).
Commentaries on the pastorals may dig deeper into this.
Have joy in the Lord!
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NB.Mick said:Tes said:
A pastor taught about ,how a Christian family should be according to the Word of God, at the end of his service he asked to the Congregation ,mentioning about a certain part of his country like this: “ Some people before coming to the Lord they had five wives and have children from them, in the new testament one man should have one wife ,what would be your suggestion? “The question is what should be done?
My suggestion would be to advise this pastor to get a decent bible software (such as Logos), but maybe a worn printed bible may do as well to see that in the NT not "one man" should have one wife, but that this is a requirement for elders in the church.
There might be resources in a Logos library that discuss missions/church-building in African or Muslim context. Top of my head I think I saw a discussion of this in the WEA library
I'll need to do more specific searching later, but I don't remember reading anyone arguing for a breakup of the polygamic family (AFAIK this is also secular law in European countries: even though polygamous marriages can not be performed, existing marriage relations, e.g. from Saudi Arabia, are always respected to their full extent in European jurisdictions - including eligibility for social welfare payments etc. - under the assumption that sovereign states may rule marriage as they choose and reciprocally accept the legality of such). Christian churches typically will not allow adding another wife, though.
The discussion, however, always concentrates on what exactly Paul meant (there are even positions that hold Paul requires elders to be married, i.e. to have at least one wife or to be undivorced) and whether Paul's requirements for elders are timeless and stand in a different culture (which may mean that the otherwise most able and resourceful men in a local culture are not to be elders).
Commentaries on the pastorals may dig deeper into this.
Blessings in Christ.
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NB.Mick said:
My suggestion would be to advise this pastor to get a decent bible software
The pastor is not from there he lives in the Capital City, but these people which have been mentioned are from the remote areas somewhere in the villages. I think he may have this report from evangelists who preached the Gospel there.
Blessings in Christ.
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Now I know from your previous thread, >>>>http://community.logos.com/forums/p/84198/590478.aspx#590478 You do not wish to promote undue contention. My question would be: What is to be gained from this debate? We speak of a hypothetical Church, In a hypothetical country, with hypothetical pastors, and husbands, with multiple wives. None of whom will take notice of our opinion. This thread is even more useless than the one objected to recently.Tes said:the men have come to the Lord with all their wives ,as new testament believers what is going to be done? what should the church do?
Tes said:First of all we don't have to judge.If we see there is something wrong with him the Forum is not the right place to comment on ministers or somesthing which has to do with them.Instead of giving more time on such things ,please let us use the Forum to help to learn how we could use the software for our Bible study.
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Tes said:NB.Mick said:
My suggestion would be to advise this pastor to get a decent bible software
The pastor is not from there he lives in the Capital City, but these people which have been mentioned are from the remote areas somewhere in the villages. I think he may have this report from evangelists who preached the Gospel there.
Tes,
my comment regarding bible software was somewhat tongue in cheek to keep this thread within the forum bounds, you may easily ignore it. That said, I think that many churches in Africa and the muslim world have established some sort of guidelines for treating this topic.
Have joy in the Lord!
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Tes said:
A pastor taught about ,how a Christian family should be according to the Word of God, at the end of his service he asked to the Congregation ,mentioning about a certain part of his country like this: “ Some people before coming to the Lord they had five wives and have children from them, in the new testament one man should have one wife ,what would be your suggestion? “The question is what should be done?
I appriciate your contribution.
There has been much written about this in various missiologies, but I'm not aware of anything in Logos that addresses this question specifically. (I would love to be corrected in this.) I wish Logos had more in the area of missiology and/or cross-cultural ministry.
I would say two things gleaned from my (sketchy) reading on this topic: 1) Marriage is intended by God to be between one man and one woman. 2) If a polygamous family comes to faith in Christ then divorcing all but the first wife would (in most cultures) be an incredible hardship on the remaining wives and their children, forcing upon them a life-style which they (again?) have no say in. I believe that 1Cor.7:20, in the context of household rules, can be applied to this situation. If a man who comes to faith decides that he cannot in good conscience remain married to his other wives, in my opinion he is obligated to care for them financially for the rest of their lives (unless they remarry).
But the question of children remains: do they stay with the father or the mother? Is it not best for the children to remain with both parents? The ethical impulse in the gospel to care for and defend the weakest (IMHO), trumps the concern for an optimal marriage arrangement. The weakest are the children, who by a forced divorce will be separated from either their father or their mother. The next weakest are the wives to be divorced: what happens to them financially, how will they be cared for, should they remain celibate & alone for the rest of their lives, are they given a voice at all in their own future, etc.?
In a profoundly challenging interpretive statement Paul says "Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Rom. 13:10 - see in context). However one applies the principle of the ideal Christian family in that situation (or in our context, for that matter), the principle of love should guide the interpretation and application of the 'rules.'
Another thought is that while God does not approve of polygamy, he does not reject polygamists (David: a man after God's own heart, e.g.), nor is there any Biblical example of God telling a polygamist to divorce all but his first wife.
Finally, and I say this as one who has worked and made painful mistakes in cross-cultural situations: we should resist any simple solution to such a complex, cross-cultural social reality.
NOTE: I present these thoughts to Tes for his thoughts. I don't intend to argue for or against this position with anyone. Tes, if you would like further clarity on what I've said above, I'd be glad to oblige.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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You guys have raised some good points that have challenged my thinking. My original post was intended for someone specifically in my context. Things are different in the rest of the world. If its not against the law, its not the job of the missionary to westernize the culture, or judiciary system... In that instance, I would let it be and when and if the Lord impresses on the mans heart that what he's doing is wrong, then I would put together some bible studies on the issue in scripture, and prayerfully see where things go adapting as the situation changes.
If he wanted to be a leader in the church, "being the husband of only one wife" in such a context would make staffing tricky.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Schezic said:
This thread is even more useless than the one objected to recently.
Hi Schezic, Sorry! my only intention is only to learn and know what others have to say. I have no intention to judge or to criticize anybody. Nobody will be harmed by this thread.
Blessings in Christ.
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I suppose I misinterpreted your statement.Tes said:Schezic said:This thread is even more useless than the one objected to recently.
Hi Schezic, Sorry! my only intention is only to learn and know what others have to say. I have no intention to judge or to criticize anybody. Nobody will be harmed by this thread.
Tes said:please let us use the Forum to help to learn how we could use the software for our Bible study.
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Tes, I totally agree with Randy here. Just as I would not counsel a newly converted husband to divorce his unbelieving wife (unequally yoked), I would not seek to abandon the polygamist's wives.Randy W. Sims said:I don't agree with polygamy, would never consider it, but if he lives in a country where it is permitted and if he is already married then he is responsible for his family and should continue to take care of them.
Totally personal opinion. Nothing whatsoever to back it up. I just feel the Lord would expect us to take responsibility for our actions and that He would hate divorce more than entering in to a marriage contract with multiple wives, before salvation.
Of course, this is only my personal opinion.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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William Gabriel said:
This isn't an issue we really have to deal with in the US,
When evangelizing among the Hmong I did encounter this. I bought a house in Saginaw from a Hmong fellow with 5 wives.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I think some of you guys have a 'kill switch' on your Bibles between Jacob and Herod. I'd assume all your comments are equally applicable to Jacob, as today's example. Even in the first century, though Rome prohibited polygamy, the jews appeared to get a free ticket (Caesar laughing about the danger of being a part of Herod's family, and it always being an interesting question as to the validity of John the Baptist's accusation).
I don't advocate polygamy; I'm just always impressed at the guidance, in the face of social acceptability (or lack thereof).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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abondservant said:
I would be operating on the assumption that
Why would you make those assumptions rather than:
- He is a new Christian
- from a culture that permits multiple wives
- and is sincerely concerned about how to conform to his new Christian belief on marriage without acting in a non-Christian manner to some portion of his current family
- which may have arisen in a society that doesn't legally track marriage.
This is why we need more third world resources in Logos ... as well as more books on logic. Currently we miss many of the interest conundrums of applying scripture to life. I want the Dalit Commentary in Logos.
Sorry, abondservant, to use you to plug a missing commentary. Your answer was good for the context in which you meant it.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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I'm grateful you specified "some of you guys." I submit you could have easily gone back one more generation. >>> Genesis 24:67Denise said:I think some of you guys have a 'kill switch' on your Bibles between Jacob and Herod.
Can anyone show me where Scripture defines marriage as anything but an agreement between a man, a woman, and GOD? (We do see subtle nudges from the parents) [:D] Is there Evidence that there had to be a Man Of The Cloth presiding and Pronouncing a couple Man and Wife? ...Any reference to a marriage certificate provided by the government? Is there a limit on the number of wives...except for leaders? ... or are these all Traditions of Men?
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Well, Paul C, you got me good. Though to be technically correct, I was off by 2 generations (though the translation is touch and go, literally ... woman > wife).
I'm actually somewhat mortified, since the good Apostle Paul based much of his gentile argument on a polygamist.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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MJ no excuse, just doing what most of people would do - assume that because you're speaking my language that we must be from the same country. That is to say typical american egotistic ethnocentricism :P. Something I see more of after a missions trip than I would a few years later.
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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NB.Mick said:
There might be resources in a Logos library that discuss missions/church-building in African or Muslim context. Top of my head I think I saw a discussion of this in the WEA library
This proved to be one of the top search hits in my library, and it discusses polygamy itself, not the elder question:
- a reflective dialogue written down by Walter Trobisch in a situation where the church required members to divorce all but the first wife (maybe this relates to a RC context in which the canon law was upheld [Pohle/Preuss wrote: "Polygamy proper, i. e. having several wives at the same time, cannot be a valid marriage", citing Trent XXIV Canon 2 which may have been adressed directly against Luther's opinion])
- a socio-thelogical reflection on polygamy, advocating for the "true biblical ideal" of one man one wife, but strongly linked to the particular situation in one tribe and not adressing the question of what existing families should do.
Have joy in the Lord!
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NB.Mick said:
advocating for the "true biblical ideal" of one man one wife, but strongly linked to the particular situation in one tribe and not adressing the question of what existing families should do
I would like to be on the front row when these theologians explain their views to a newly -converted polygamist as he reads of the Old Testament patriarchs. [8-|]
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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If it is a "Biblical Ideal", Wouldn't you think there would be Scripture saying so?NB.Mick said:advocating for the "true biblical ideal" of one man one wife
Please don't get me wrong. I certainly don't support polygamy. I'm more in the 1 Corinthians 7:8 camp.
Fact is: The "Institution of Marriage" has been turned into a ponzi scheme. The Church, The state, and the wedding planners/caterers all cashing in. [:(] No different than the money changers in the Temple.
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Tes,
Your question was valid and reflects the culture of many countries. We Americans are very ignorant of the issues much of the world deals with.
Forgive us our ignorant responses.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
Just as much of the world may be ignorant of the issues we deal with. Such as a plague of Prosperity Preachers.Michael Childs said:Tes,
Your question was valid and reflects the culture of many countries. We Americans are very ignorant of the issues much of the world deals with.
Forgive us our ignorant responses.
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Tes said:
A pastor taught about ,how a Christian family should be according to the Word of God, at the end of his service he asked to the Congregation ,mentioning about a certain part of his country like this: “ Some people before coming to the Lord they had five wives and have children from them, in the new testament one man should have one wife ,what would be your suggestion? “The question is what should be done?
I appriciate your contribution.
Tes, I am have been sitting on the side lines for quite some time, looking at the posts with different view points. I remember 20 years ago discussing the exact situation that you brought up with the head of my mission. What would be my suggestion, the quick answer would be that the man (the new believer) should NOT divorce or put away any of his wives! If some of his non-christian wives wanted a divorce (to leave him), they were free to do so. The best non-Logos material I can think of on this topic is at http://www.opc.org/qa.html?question_id=419 To keep this post on topic, make it into a personal book.
Tom
http://hombrereformado.blogspot.com/ Solo a Dios la Gloria Apoyo
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Michael Childs said:
Tes,
Your question was valid and reflects the culture of many countries. We Americans are very ignorant of the issues much of the world deals with.
Forgive us our ignorant responses.
No problem Michael.
Blessings in Christ.
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There is no Biblical reason to say anything since there is nothing Biblically wrong with polygamy. It may not be wise, but it isn't a sin by any stretch of the imagination.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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I agree with the conclusion reached in this article. I strongly disagree with the reasoning used to reach it. The article states " recognize that your particular sin permanently disqualifies you from office in the church." I suggest that if one did not "know"/"believe" that taking multiple wives was a sin, and that transgression has been forgiven, It is not the transgression, but rather, The residual wives that disqualify him from an office in the church. >>>>James4:17 Therefore, to the one who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin. >>> Heb10 16,17Tom Rach said:“THIS IS THE COVENANT THAT I WILL MAKE WITH THEM
AFTER THOSE DAYS, SAYS THE LORD:
I WILL PUT MY LAWS UPON THEIR HEART,
AND ON THEIR MIND I WILL WRITE THEM,”
He then says,
17 “AND THEIR SINS AND THEIR LAWLESS DEEDS
I WILL REMEMBER NO MORE.”0 -
Schezic said:
Just as much of the world may be ignorant of the issues we deal with. Such as a plague of Prosperity Preachers.Michael Childs said:Tes,
Your question was valid and reflects the culture of many countries. We Americans are very ignorant of the issues much of the world deals with.
Forgive us our ignorant responses.
True, and I do not mean to imply that I am less ignorant than others.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
I don't think there's a need to apologize ... always easiest to apologize for other people.
First, Tes knows full well how the world works; he's far more world-wise than most of us ... lives in Germany and great depth from Africa. Second, he knew very well there was a problem with an answer; else no need for the question. And third, Africa and specifically Ethiopia was once the heart of Christianity and led the world in both faith and retention of important ancient records.
So ... continuing the conversation, one wonders exactly how the gentleman with five wives is going to comply with Jesus' commands (Jesus' language, by the way). I don't see how it's possible. There's really quite a few situations that the Bible doesn't prohibit; it's just difficult to go forward and still respect the teaching of Jesus.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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The depth and breadth of the ignorance of Scripture among those who claim to be leaders in "the church" is staggering. In addition to the lies spewed below, the article vomits up this "gem" of witlessness...
- First, marriage is intended to be between one man and one woman. It is a picture of Jesus Christ's relationship to the church (Ephesians 5), and thankfully Jesus is not a polygamist!
Mt. 25:1
Where is polygamy called a sin in the Bible? Oh, but it disqualifies for office in "the church"! You promise??
Nevertheless, this bozo proceeds to pontificate...
Paul C said:
I agree with the conclusion reached in this article. I strongly disagree with the reasoning used to reach it. The article states " recognize that your particular sin permanently disqualifies you from office in the church." I suggest that if one did not "know"/"believe" that taking multiple wives was a sin, and that transgression has been forgiven, It is not the transgression, but rather, The residual wives that disqualify him from an office in the church. >>>>James4:17 Therefore, to the one who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin. >>> Heb10 16,17Tom Rach said:I am never challenged to believe anything other than Jer. 4:22. Absolutely staggering...
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Well, very strange my suggestion is:
1. The man doesn't have to divorce his wives.
2. He should not have sexual relation with any one of them anymore .
3. He should not marry as long as the wives are alive and Vicversa.
4. He should take care of the women and his children equally and provide them their necessities.
5. The women should not divorce the man either.
Since God has given them a new life, I believe He could provide them also a way out.
I believe if anything should be made in the name of solution, what is not in the Bible . It is to write a book in the name of the Bible. If they have good understanding that the new Life in Jesus Christ is more worthy than in this world, certainly they will treat one another as brother and sisters in the Lord than their former life.
My dear brothers and sisters, I am sure for many of you my suggestion may sound as odd as the situation there, but never mind I hope you can still tolerate me. I highly appreciate your comments and all your thoughts sincerely
Blessings in Christ.
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Tes said:
Well, very strange my suggestion is:
2. He should not have sexual relation with any one of them anymore .
I seriously hope you do not sin by suggesting such a horrible thing. What a nightmare!
The marriage bed is holy, regardless of the number of wives...don't profane or pollute it with unbiblical advice.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Paul C said:
Did you have the same opinion before and after all the Other folks input?
Assuming you're talking to me...yes.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Tes said:
I highly appreciate your comments and all your thoughts sincerely
I appreciate your graciousness on such a difficult subject.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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David Paul said:
Assuming you're talking to me...yes.
No I was talking to Tes....we posted at the same time...i didn't quote him...i have edited it
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I suggest everyone give 2 Sam. 21:1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 a quick review. YHWH told Yisraa'eil not to make a covenant with any of the people in the land. The Gibeonites used guile to extract a covenant with Y'hohshu`a. Shaa'uul reneged on that agreement and YHWH considered it a breach of covenant so drastic that He required a drastic solution to make His point.
Point is, whether it mirrors exactly any particular "concept" or "principle" in Scripture, word given is bond--it is covenant. Those people ARE married and it is VALID IN YHWH'S SIGHT.
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"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Due to discrimination of my Faith in the Lord.For nearly 20yrs, I am single .I know what the grace of the Lord means to live in such a way as an Amputee. I beg you please, I am not boasting.I only want to magnigy the Lord for His Grace.
Blessings in Christ.
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Paul C said:Tes said:
Well, very strange my suggestion is:
Did you have the same opinion before and after all the Other folks' input?
I have already said, my intenstion is only to learn what others say. There are some points on which I agree and disagree.Anyway I welcome all of them and consider them as useful.
Blessings in Christ.
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Wouldn't we have to determine if those vows included YHWH in the first place? He is certainly not included in all vows.David Paul said:Those people ARE married and it is VALID IN YHWH'S SIGHT.
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I think you should give careful consideration to Rich's thoughts on this matter.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Exactly.! He started this thread knowing it would get out of hand. Anything to draw attention to his Pet Project.Denise said:I don't think there's a need to apologize ... always easiest to apologize for other people.
First, Tes knows full well how the world works; he's far more world-wise than most of us
Now he wants to play the poor pitiful amputee card. Sorry. I ain't buying it. I called this thread for what it is from the get-go.
Tes Is trolling. And it worked.
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