Church of Christ Library for Logos Bible Software
Comments
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EastTN said:DAL said:
Earlier I wrote a reply about his arrogance that stems from the school of preaching he graduated from...
I want to be very careful here, because schools of preaching have turned out many effective servants for the Lord. I think they're at their best, though, when an already mature Christian wants to turn from a secular career to the ministry. A school of preaching can provide an invaluable crash-course, if you will, to deepen their knowledge of Scripture and prepare them for preaching week in and week out.
My sense is that they are often less effective for the young Christian who is not yet mature. It's an intense environment that often focuses almost exclusively on the views of a particular segment of a denomination, and the sense of really "digging into" doctrine can foster a self-confidence in one's understanding of God's will that simply isn't justified.
From what I've seen, the broader and more rounded education of a Christian college - and perhaps a year or two of working - can provide a better foundation for a young person who wants to go into the full-time ministry.
Yes, you are correct! I really don’t think letting someone fresh out of high school go to a school of preaching will do them much good. They are too young and they can fall into the same condemnation as Satan did.
And yes, even those X schools of preaching have provided great ministers for the church.
Blessings!
DAL
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DAL said:
...And trust me, he didn’t get offended, he left because we don’t think like him and we’re not good enough. The guy didn’t even know how to use “And thus...” in a sentence and now he uses it as part of his every sermon he preaches or discussion he has. It’s the typical “catch phrase” that his particular SOP teaches their students to sound bright 😁 I’m not making fun of them but their school is like a cookie-cutter; you should hear the graduates preach sermons they all sound the same LOL... “ And thus, brethren, I have articulated the truths of the Bible with a plethora of examples that emanate from the holy pages of the sacred record...” 🤪 I know one too many that sound alike, so I got proof 😂👍😁👌
Perhaps. That cookie cutter similarity is something you see with many schools of preaching. In my mind, it's a characteristic weakness of that form of training, and I blame the schools. The programs simply aren't designed with enough time to give students a solid foundation as good public speakers, so they resort to teaching them a formula for preaching. They also aren't designed with enough time to give them the foundation in Scripture that you'd get with a four-year Bible degree, much less a seminary degree. So again, they resort to giving them "survival level" training in the basic doctrines of their particular church.
A mature Christian, who understands what they're getting, will be able to take it and use it in a way that makes sense. A novice Christian will be able to knock out cookie-cutter sermons for a congregation that might otherwise have no sermons at - and if they're lucky, will have some life experiences that will help them grow out of it.
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DAL said:
Yes, you are correct! I really don’t think letting someone fresh out of high school go to a school of preaching will do them much good. They are too young and they can fall into the same condemnation as Satan did.
And yes, even those X schools of preaching have provided great ministers for the church.
Blessings!
DAL
I think we're on the same page here (and I apologize if I came across as critical).
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Interesting...If I were to say to I had been to Temple Square in Salt Lake City, would I be barred from fellowship?[;)]Denise said:James C. ... don't feel too bad. I got myself kicked out too (but on the other side of the spectrum). Looking at the bookstore site and the schools supported (eg Memphis), it looks like the church of Christ my aunt attends (had lunch with her yesterday). I can see why they'd need to meet on facebook.
The church of Christ varients are interesting. Chatting with my aunt, she knew where I 'lived' and I knew where she 'lived'. So our discussion of how our respective churches are coming along is not unlike a minefield. It's unfortunate. One time I was driving up to Utah and wanted to stop in a church of Christ I'd been to as a child. It was small, and the first order of 'business' (Bible study) was to identify where 'the visitor' stood. And not to be outdone, where the preacher and elders stood. After an hour, we'd successfully agreed Homer Hailey was good and had been unfairly tagged by the more conservative varients. But being the humorous type, I threw in my destination was the Zion bookstore in St George.
After reading through the OP explanations of his denomination, I am reminded of the scene in "The Jerk" where Steve Martin's carnival game operator character explained what prizes were actually eligible to win. (If you don't understand my reference, I don't recommend watching the movie.)
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DAL said:
Yes, you are correct! I really don’t think letting someone fresh out of high school go to a school of preaching will do them much good. They are too young and they can fall into the same condemnation as Satan did.
While I did not agree with the perspective of the OP as to his group being the true "churches of Christ", I did go straight from High School to a Bible Institute into pastoral ministry. Yes, I made mistakes and am wiser now than I was 30 years ago. But I also trust I will have more wisdom should the Lord give me another 30 years. Many years of fruitful kingdom impact can be lost if a waiting period is imposed upon ministry preparation.
From a Logos search and using "Copy Bible Verses" tool -
1 Timothy 4:12–16 (LEB:2012)
12 Let no one look down on your youth, but be an example for the believers in word, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. 13 Until I come, pay attention to the public reading, to exhortation, to teaching. 14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, that was granted to you through prophecy with the laying on of hands by the council of elders. 15 Practice these things. Be diligent in these things, in order that your progress may be evident to everyone. 16 Fix your attention on yourself and on your teaching. Continue in them, for by* doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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David Thomas said:
While I did not agree with the perspective of the OP as to his group being the true "churches of Christ", I did go straight from High School to a Bible Institute into pastoral ministry. Yes, I made mistakes and am wiser now than I was 30 years ago. But I also trust I will have more wisdom should the Lord give me another 30 years. Many years of fruitful kingdom impact can be lost if a waiting period is imposed upon ministry preparation.
From a Logos search and using "Copy Bible Verses" tool -
1 Timothy 4:12–16 (LEB:2012)
12 Let no one look down on your youth, but be an example for the believers in word, in conduct, in love, in faith, in purity. 13 Until I come, pay attention to the public reading, to exhortation, to teaching. 14 Do not neglect the gift that is in you, that was granted to you through prophecy with the laying on of hands by the council of elders. 15 Practice these things. Be diligent in these things, in order that your progress may be evident to everyone. 16 Fix your attention on yourself and on your teaching. Continue in them, for by* doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you.
David, I apologize if I said anything that offended you. Not all schools of preaching are the same, and some young men are much more mature in the faith (and in other ways as well) than others. I do believe that these institutions have an important role to play in the kingdom. My only real point was that just like seminaries, public schools, or any other institution, we need to understand their weaknesses as well as their strengths.
And may the Lord grant that we may all grow in wisdom and grace in however many years he may choose to give us.
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David Thomas, I didn’t mean to generalize, but unfortunately we live in times that are very different. You were one of the few mature young men that made it, but the ones I’ve seen some didn’t even graduate, others got kicked out of preaching school and others started their ministry only to abandon their calling because it wasn’t for them. Others continue when they should’ve quit a long time ago instead of harming the church.
In either case, there’s always a remnant that stays faithful and does good and I’m glad you’re among that remnant.
Have a blessed weekend!
DAL
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EastTN said:
I apologize if I said anything that offended you. Not all schools of preaching are the same,
No offense taken. I agree that not all schools are the same. I have also seen some pretty wacked out ideas promoted by inexperienced preachers who did not realize how inexperienced they were (are!).
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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DAL said:
I didn’t mean to generalize, but unfortunately we live in times that are very different...some didn’t even graduate, others got kicked out of preaching school and others started their ministry only to abandon their calling...Others continue when they should’ve quit a long time ago instead of harming the church.
DAL, I concur that many enter "ministry" with little wisdom, less tact, and even less of a divine calling." Some of this is due to youthfulness, in other situations I've seen the same tendencies in "second-career" preachers. Rom 1:22 " claiming to be wise, they became fools" [taken out of context]
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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Glad I don't resemble any of those short comings
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I just want to chime in here that I grew up in the "anti" churches of Christ as did my wife... There are many good Christians in that particular fellowship whom I love dearly, though I hope I have rightly matured to a more balanced and healthy faith. I presently am a part of a church of Christ that tries to be biblically-centered and not get caught up in dogma... Most of the leaders within this movement would read good Bible research from any person, regardless of affiliation. I, personally, have benefited greatly from the NIV Commentary put out by College Press (Joint effort between CoC and Christian churches), Jack Cottrell, and many others... I have my beliefs about various topics, but I have found my life has been salvaged by "progressives" who taught me more about spirituality than I ever learned in more conservative circles. I think for myself, as I think do most folks... This thread paints the churches of Christ in a poor light but is not representative of how all or even most of us think. Blessings.
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Before someone has time to get offended... I didn't intend to perpetuate the "anti" term in a derogatory manner. I am just quoting the aforementioned "anti" churches as stated on this thread and saying... I grew up in that fellowship. They call themselves "non-institutional." The NI CoC has some good points that I agree with, though some have lost the spirit of Christianity along the way. Many are very healthy, balanced Christians, however. I digress, but it is true that many of us in the NI knew what we were against (anti) but not what we were "for." That doesn't excuse labeling folks with a derogatory term, but a good point is made that should be considered...
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I don’t think “anti-” was used in a derogatory way. It was/is used more for the “anti” beliefs this particular group has (e.g. anti-fellowship rooms with a kitchen in them, anti-multiple cups during the Lord’s Supper, anti-church cooperation and orphan homes, etc.). I haven’t seen any of those in a long time. Maybe they’re not as strong anymore.
DAL
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Old thread but I’m still hopeful that Logos 10 will finally introduce a “Restorationist/CoC/Christian Church/Disciples of Christ Base Package or at least Library Expansion.
DAL
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It is going to take a lot to get me to upgrade to Logos 10 instead of just slowly buying more legacy libraries. A Church of Christ package would catch my attention immediately.
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h..Kathleen Marie said:It is going to take a lot to get me to upgrade to Logos 10
Er .. ah.. upgrading to Logos 10 is usually a free upgrade sometime 3-6 months after it is released. Don't confuse the libraries with the software.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Daniel Lange said:
We are looking for faithful gospel preachers, teachers, and members of the Lord's church who would be interested in joining a good cause to help establish an electronic brotherhood base package for Logos Bible Software. A group has already been formed on Facebook, as well as a shared notebook to begin putting together a prospective list of publications to be converted for use on Logos. If you are interested in joining this good work or would like to know more, please respond to the post and I'd be happy to give you more information.
Am interested .... let me know. By the way Daniel.... ever get back to Marshfield, WI.... ??? [8-|]
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:Daniel Lange said:
We are looking for faithful gospel preachers, teachers, and members of the Lord's church who would be interested in joining a good cause to help establish an electronic brotherhood base package for Logos Bible Software. A group has already been formed on Facebook, as well as a shared notebook to begin putting together a prospective list of publications to be converted for use on Logos. If you are interested in joining this good work or would like to know more, please respond to the post and I'd be happy to give you more information.
Am interested .... let me know. By the way Daniel.... ever get back to Marshfield, WI.... ???
Daniel is no longer part of the discussion.
DAL
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DAL said:
Daniel is no longer part of the discussion.
DAL
Thanks..... as usual.... $5 dollars short and 2 late.... [8-|]
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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DAL said:
He may have suffered a “Failure to launch” 🚀 even in his own “Facebook group.” Unfortunately, he wanted things done his way. He sabotaged his own cause.
I know Daniel personally and I will say without reservation, that Daniel is a good man and as long as I have known him, which is quite a while, .... he is not "wanting things his own way"... But he is very determined in the seeking of truth...
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman said:DAL said:
He may have suffered a “Failure to launch” 🚀 even in his own “Facebook group.” Unfortunately, he wanted things done his way. He sabotaged his own cause.
I know Daniel personally and I will say without reservation, that Daniel is a good man and as long as I have known him, which is quite a while, .... he is not "wanting things his own way"... But he is very determined in the seeking of truth...
I’m sure he was sincere in his efforts. As far a wanting things his own way, that’s just how he came across; it doesn’t necessarily mean he was or is that way.
Hopefully we will all get what we’ve been asking for this year; even if it’s just a partial package.
DAL
Ps. He is determined in seeking the truth? It read like he already had the truth. Maybe I’m not understanding what you’re trying to say. It’s fine, no need to explain.
I did like how he clarified that what he meant by churches of Christ has nothing to do with the restoration movement. The movement had good intentions, but it has done more harm than good in so many ways. Then again, that’s just my personal opinion.
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DAL said:
I did like how he clarified that what he meant by churches of Christ has nothing to do with the restoration movement. The movement had good intentions, but it has done more harm than good in so many ways. Then again, that’s just my personal opinion.
Your comment above on orphan homes was interesting. Maybe medicine reduced deaths. I guess today's bug-a-boo is colleges?
I do suspect a cOC package is uneconomical. If I were doing it, I'd probably use Abilene as a base ... clowns to the left, jokers to the right. I lived in the jokers-camp for decades ... as we drove west on I-20 in Texas, we always wondered about 'that' place. But it seems to support good scholarship. Everitt.
The quest to amalgamize the restoration movement can't work ... the split was a century ago.
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DMB said:DAL said:
I did like how he clarified that what he meant by churches of Christ has nothing to do with the restoration movement. The movement had good intentions, but it has done more harm than good in so many ways. Then again, that’s just my personal opinion.
Your comment above on orphan homes was interesting. Maybe medicine reduced deaths. I guess today's bug-a-boo is colleges?
I do suspect a cOC package is uneconomical. If I were doing it, I'd probably use Abilene as a base ... clowns to the left, jokers to the right. I lived in the jokers-camp for decades ... as we drove west on I-20 in Texas, we always wondered about 'that' place. But it seems to support good scholarship. Everitt.
The quest to amalgamize the restoration movement can't work ... the split was a century ago.
Quite frankly, I have Gospel Advocate Commentaries, Coffman Commentaries, College Press Commentaries and many other resources mix and match COC, Anti-, Christian and Disciples in my Logos library thanks to WORDsearch being bought out by FL. I guess in the end I really don’t need the package, but I’m just curious as to what one would look like 😁 My dynamic price would make the package dirt cheap for me 😉 Hmm 🤔 Maybe I’ll just make a COC collection or custom layout. I’m not going to be holding my breath for a COC package to show up some day in the Logos‘s product page 😂 I’m at peace if we get one or not.
DAL
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DAL said:
Ps. He is determined in seeking the truth? It read like he already had the truth. Maybe I’m not understanding what you’re trying to say. It’s fine, no need to explain.
I did like how he clarified that what he meant by churches of Christ has nothing to do with the restoration movement. The movement had good intentions, but it has done more harm than good in so many ways. Then again, that’s just my personal opinion.
It never seems to fail.... that a good man comes along... and his intentions gets misunderstood.... Dan is like that...
As to the restoration movement...... The church was before the movement... was during the movement and is after the movement..... that movement was just a bunch of guys... that sought to get out of their ideologic and man made teachings and get back the Bible.... which is admirable by any means. But the Church of Christ did not start during that movement.... Alexander Campbell did not start the Church of Christ....
But there are a lot men.... that I have respect for because of their stand during that movement.
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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DMB, on Orphan Homes, this resource might help: https://www.logos.com/product/204163/lectures-on-church-cooperation-and-orphan-homes Only sold in a collection, though.
DAL
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DAL said:DAL said:
…Those references are not our creeds, our only creed is the Bible - i.e. The Word of God!
DAL
I just read this (8 years later after I posted it) and I laugh at myself 😂😂😂🥲🥲🥲🤣🤣🤣🥹🥹🥹😁😁😁
I can’t believe I wrote that 🤪
DAL
I find it interesting how much you castigate the Church of Christ in the forums....
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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DAL said:DAL said:
…Those references are not our creeds, our only creed is the Bible - i.e. The Word of God!
DAL
I just read this (8 years later after I posted it) and I laugh at myself 😂😂😂🥲🥲🥲🤣🤣🤣🥹🥹🥹😁😁😁
I can’t believe I wrote that 🤪
DAL
I wouldn't be too hard on your younger self. I'm a little more nuanced in how I say it today than I used to be, but there's some truth to the old slogan. Churches of Christ have historically never required formal adherence to a written statement of faith - like the Westminster Confession of Faith, or the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith - as a condition of fellowship. Now, are there slogans and ways of expressing things that are almost universally accepted among and characteristic of churches of Christ? (e.g., the "five finger exercise") Absolutely! Are there things that you can say that will get you looked at askance and perhaps even anathemas rained down on your head? Sure! And more and more congregations are posting "what we believe" statements on their websites.
But there's still no generally recognized "churches of Christ" formal statement of faith or creed that you're forced to affirm to be recognized as a member.
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xnman said:DAL said:DAL said:
…Those references are not our creeds, our only creed is the Bible - i.e. The Word of God!
DAL
I just read this (8 years later after I posted it) and I laugh at myself 😂😂😂🥲🥲🥲🤣🤣🤣🥹🥹🥹😁😁😁
I can’t believe I wrote that 🤪
DAL
I find it interesting how much you castigate the Church of Christ in the forums....
I’m sorry you read too much into my posts. Again, I used to be that way. I’ll pray for you 👌
The slogan “No creed but the Bible” is something I laugh at now, because is not even exclusive to us. Others have used it also and have come to realize is not necessarily accurate. But anyway, here’s a short read if you want to read about it: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/no-creed-bible-subverts/?amp
DAL
Ps. The key 🔑 to the creeds issue is “Human creeds vs Biblical creeds.” I believe (credo) in Biblical creeds.
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Dal- Evidently, your library looks a LOT like mine. I missed all the WORDsearch resources but have many of them in hardback. I too hope for a package. Especially one with the WORDsearch resources.
-Mickey
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xnman said:
I find it interesting how much you castigate the Church of Christ in the forums....
DAL was not intentionally castigating the Church of Christ. You've posted a fair amount of your personal theology in this thread which, as I know you know, is not appropriate in the forums and DAL has not called you on it. If you consider DAL's posts as castigation, use the More at the upper right of the post to report his posts as abuse - then leave it to FL to agree or disagree. BTW, FL does not always reveal their response on the forums - they sometimes contact people directly.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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DAL said:
The slogan “No creed but the Bible” is something I laugh at now, because is not even exclusive to us. Others have used it also and have come to realize is not necessarily accurate.
I love this slogan as my response is simply "we clearly use the word 'creed' in difference senses. Please define 'creed'". This is a delightful apologetics technique for any denomination when someone quotes a common phrase - they often haven't really considered what they mean by it as it is something they've "always" known. BTW never ask me to define "glory" ... I've given up ever grasping what it means.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:DAL said:
The slogan “No creed but the Bible” is something I laugh at now, because is not even exclusive to us. Others have used it also and have come to realize is not necessarily accurate.
I love this slogan as my response is simply "we clearly use the word 'creed' in difference sense. Please define 'creed'". This is a delightful apologetics technique for any denomination when someone quotes a common phrase - they often haven't really considered what they mean by it as it is something they've "always" known. BTW never ask me to define "glory" ... I've given up ever grasping what it means.
That’s exactly what I did in my research. I asked several preachers “what is a creed?” And as some do in the forums, they quickly pin the definition to some sort of manual the Catholic Church uses. Only a handful were able to give me an actual answer, but it’s like they didn’t know how it applied to real life, because all they’ve been taught is to repeat a certain tradition, nothing less, nothing more.
If they only knew the great similarities we all have in doctrine with all the other guys. 👍😁👌
Anyway, thanks for your technique! I feel like calling other preachers and add just a few more answers to my list.
DAL
Ps. How is “laughing at myself” considered castigating the church of Christ, that’s beyond logic to me. I have no idea 🤷🏻♂️
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EastTN said:DAL said:DAL said:
…Those references are not our creeds, our only creed is the Bible - i.e. The Word of God!
DAL
I just read this (8 years later after I posted it) and I laugh at myself 😂😂😂🥲🥲🥲🤣🤣🤣🥹🥹🥹😁😁😁
I can’t believe I wrote that 🤪
DAL
I wouldn't be too hard on your younger self. I'm a little more nuanced in how I say it today than I used to be, but there's some truth to the old slogan. Churches of Christ have historically never required formal adherence to a written statement of faith - like the Westminster Confession of Faith, or the 1689 Baptist Confession of Faith - as a condition of fellowship. Now, are there slogans and ways of expressing things that are almost universally accepted among and characteristic of churches of Christ? (e.g., the "five finger exercise") Absolutely! Are there things that you can say that will get you looked at askance and perhaps even anathemas rained down on your head? Sure! And more and more congregations are posting "what we believe" statements on their websites.
But there's still no generally recognized "churches of Christ" formal statement of faith or creed that you're forced to affirm to be recognized as a member.
While not official, these two books are used a lot: 1) why I am a member of the church Christ, and 2) Introducing the Church of Christ
1. https://www.amazon.com/Why-Am-Member-Church-Christ/dp/091572071X
2. https://www.amazon.com/Introducing-Distinctive-Features-Discussed-Ministers/dp/B0012V5NW6/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=21A536EH7PYLY&keywords=introducing+the+church+of+Christ&qid=1654084404&sprefix=introducing+the+church+of+christ%2Caps%2C268&sr=8-1Can’t get more credal than that. Great books for those who want to know what churches of Christ believe.
DAL
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EastTN said:
But there's still no generally recognized "churches of Christ" formal statement of faith or creed that you're forced to affirm to be recognized as a member.
Quite true. But 'somehow' members know the rules. I remember sitting with a cOC preacher, discussing the boundaries. No surprises. And crossing them (by preachers) is widely discussed, and career-ending. The meaning of Gen 1 ... remarriage ... a piano.
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MJ. Smith said:
BTW never ask me to define "glory" ... I've given up ever grasping what it means.
Goodness, so true. Am reading Tabor's book on Paul. It means, like becoming little gods (in the logic). But you don't get to create heavens and earths (or humans). That's different.
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DAL said:
That’s exactly what I did in my research. I asked several preachers “what is a creed?” And as some do in the forums, they quickly pin the definition to some sort of manual the Catholic Church uses. Only a handful were able to give me an actual answer, but it’s like they didn’t know how it applied to real life, because all they’ve been taught is to repeat a certain tradition, nothing less, nothing more.
If they only knew the great similarities we all have in doctrine with all the other guys. 👍😁👌
Anyway, thanks for your technique! I feel like calling other preachers and add just a few more answers to my list.
DAL
I don't know what you mean with the way you use the word "creed". I too have asked many preachers in the Church of Christ and almost every time, the definition I head is "doctrine"... I'm a thinking you mean "doctrine" when you use the word "creed".... Of which the Church of Christ as I know it, does not have any such "doctrine" that all of the congregations follow other than the Bible itself. I know many denominations claim the same thing... and some claim to have such "doctrine" that all of their congregations must follow... In fact, I have talked to some of the Reverends, Preachers or Pastors... that say they must preach certain "doctrine" at least once a year or so. That does not happen in the Church of Christ that I know.
In the Bible.... all the congregations (local churches or such) were autonomous of each other. They each had and have today... their own structure... normally, elders, deacons, preacher and people and the way they worship.. It is the same today as it was in 33 AD thru 96 AD. Some of the "division" I have heard you talk about is over the way some worship or the way they are structured, which were two distinctions of the church of the 1st century and I think are valid to adhere to today.
While some have "splintered" or "broken off"... such as "Anti" or "Non-Institutional", "musical instruments"... and others.... that organization that existed in the 1st century... exists today.... and one can take their Bible.... and see the structure and the way they worshipped in the 1st century and find that church today...
That is the church that I am a member of...
I try not to "push" it on anyone... as I think that is not what my Lord would do.... but I will stand and defend her (the church) until someone proves me wrong. And I am open to discuss that....
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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xnman,
A creed is:
1. “a formal statement of Christian beliefs, especially the Apostles' Creed or the Nicene Creed.noun: Creed; noun: the Creed.”2. “a set of beliefs or aims which guide someone's actions.”3. In short, “a summary of one’s religious beliefs.”The point I’ve always made is this: “We all have a creed.” Creed from the latin Credo which means “I believe.”When someone asks you what you, as a member of the church of Christ, believe; you don’t respond, “I believe in no other creed but the Bible.” Almost everyone believes in the Bible.What your answer should be is something along these lines: “As a member of the church of Christ I believe baptism is unto the remission of sins, I believe mechanical instruments of music are not authorized for use in NT worship, I believe christians should partake of the Lord’s Supper every first day of the week, etc.”You don’t tell people “we have no creed but the Bible” because that doesn’t answer anything nor helps anybody. You give a summary of the church of Christ’s beliefs.Many churches of Christ are posting a “What We Believe” section in their websites. Many times, the Apostle’s Creed is cited. The Apostle’s Creed is a Biblical Creed because it summarizes basic, core christian beliefs, even though it was written way after all the apostles died.Does it have to do with doctrine, yes, in a sense; and sometimes your creed vs someone else’s creed determines if you will have fellowship with that person or not. Most religious groups compare what others believe and based on that they decide whether they invite you to preach or not 😁
Anyway, I’m slowly working on a small book concerning this topic and will attempt to help the church move away from saying, “no creed but the Bible or we don’t have creeds, etc.” because I’ve realized most are just repeating a tradition when in fact they don’t even understand what they’re saying. What most people do is automatically pin the word creed with the Catholic Church and that’s a huge error that is counter productive when trying to evangelize souls.Alright, I hope you see where I’m coming from with this. It has never been, nor will ever be an attack or chastisement on the Church of Christ. God forbid! Short and sweet. I hope I’m making sense.3 John 2,DAL0 -
DAL said:
While not official, these two books are used a lot: 1) why I am a member of the church Christ, and 2) Introducing the Church of Christ
1. https://www.amazon.com/Why-Am-Member-Church-Christ/dp/091572071X
2. https://www.amazon.com/Introducing-Distinctive-Features-Discussed-Ministers/dp/B0012V5NW6/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?crid=21A536EH7PYLY&keywords=introducing+the+church+of+Christ&qid=1654084404&sprefix=introducing+the+church+of+christ%2Caps%2C268&sr=8-1Can’t get more credal than that. Great books for those who want to know what churches of Christ believe.
DAL
DAL, I have to respectfully disagree with you on that. Those books are both influential and good descriptions of typical church of Christ beliefs. But I'm not aware of any congregation affiliated with the churches of Christ that requires someone to formally affirm adherence to either one of those books in order to be recognized as a member. They simply aren't used the same way other traditions use the Westminster Confession of Faith, or the Nicene Creed.
There's a difference between a hugely influential book, like Mere Christianity or Why I am a Member of the Church of Christ, and a formal (i.e., credal) statement of faith like the Nicene Creed or the Augsburg Confession.
To be very blunt, while both of the books you mention are influential, the church of Christ congregation I've attended for the last 25 years doesn't use either one in its teaching or worship. We certainly don't ask prospective members, or prospective ministers, to affirm them. No congregation I've ever attended did.
I probably agree with most of what those books say. But our congregation simply does not use either one of them as a creed.
If by "creed" you simply mean that there's something I believe that I can describe to you if you ask me about it, then it seems to me that you're using the term in a way that's so trivial as to be almost meaningless. It just becomes a synonym for "belief." So yes, churches of Christ have many beliefs in common. But that's not the way the word is used when someone affiliated with the churches of Christ says "no creed but the Bible." What that statement means, as it is typically used by thoughtful members of the churches of Christ, is that we don't have a formal statement of faith the way many other church traditions do. Period. Full stop.
Please don't misunderstand. If you want to help churches of Christ engage more thoughtfully with Catholics and other credal traditions, then I'm all for that. If you want members of the churches of Christ to have a more sympathetic understanding of how those traditions use their creeds, and the role the creeds play in those traditions, then I'm all for that as well. I just don't think that draining the word "creed" of all meaning beyond "something I believe" is the way to do it. I also don't think implying that the various slogans used within the churches of Christ have the same role or standing as, for instance, the Nicene Creed is the way to do it either.
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xnman said:
That is the church that I am a member of...
I try not to "push" it on anyone...
No, but you "push" theological statements and "history" that are rather specific to your church without any apparent understanding of how many in the forums would disagree -- more so on history than on theology I suspect. You need to take into account that the Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, and Catholic Churches (among others) also claim to worship in the way Christians worshipped in the 1st century -- minus the synagogue services, of course, and claim their structure is based on the principles of history as given in the Acts of the Apostles. With a slight gap in documentation for part of the 2nd century they can document their growth (& decline esp. for the Oriental Orthodox) and evolution up to the present day. I suspect that the Protestant churches that value apostolic succession can as well.
BTW the New Testament includes baptismal creeds or portions thereof ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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EastTN said:
What that statement means, as it is typically used by thoughtful members of the churches of Christ, is that we don't have a formal statement of faith the way many other church traditions do. Period. Full stop.
Actually, a few years back I did see a creed (or proposed creed) out of Boise Bible College unofficially ... I may have a copy on an old computer.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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xnman said:
I don't know what you mean with the way you use the word "creed".
being written does not determine if it is a "creed" or "doctrine". Both of these are "commonly held beliefs" that set apart those who are in or out of those who share the common belief. I borrow from a pamphlet I picked up in a church of Christ in Elk City, OK published by V.E. Howard. I ask if it is possible to be a church of Christ and not believe that calling upon the name of the Lord involves: "Hear the gospel; Believe; Repent; Confess; Be Baptized into Christ for remission of sins; and Live a faithful Christian life". I am not trying to pick an argument, but if these 6 constitute what is required for the remission of sins, then this is a creed or doctrine. If those who hold this view can view another church of Christ as valid which does not hold this view, then it is NOT a defining creed. I have little experience, but EVERY church of Christ I have been exposed to accepts this summary of the teaching of Scripture as true and necessary.
If there are no commonly accepted beliefs, how would one determine if a book should or should not be included in a Collection or Library as in the heading of this Thread.
xnman said:In the Bible.... all the congregations (local churches or such) were autonomous of each other.
Having grown up INDEPENDENT Fundamental Baptist, I used to believe this too (as promoted in James Carroll's booklet "The Trail of Blood"). But further study has convinced me that there was SOME FORM of mutual accountability When the Gentiles reported back to Jerusalem (Acts 15) and Paul's appointing of Elders (Timothy in Ephesus, Titus in Crete) and Paul's instructions to these pastors on who is an acceptable Elder or Deacon.
Fortunately, Logos allows me to consider both the Primary Source (Scripture) and Secondary sources (historians, authors, preachers, commentators) who attempt to describe the early church.
Making Disciples! Logos Ecosystem = LogosMax on Microsoft Surface Pro 7 (Win11), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone & iPad mini, Proclaim (Proclaim Remote on Fire Tablet).
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What we really need in Jaroslav Pelikan's book on creeds. Short form: Credo: Historical and Theological Guide to Creeds and Confessions of Faith in the Christian Tradition: Pelikan, Jaroslav: 9780300109740: Books: AmazonSmile
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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EastTN said:
DAL, I have to respectfully disagree with you on that. Those books are both influential and good descriptions of typical church of Christ beliefs. But I'm not aware of any congregation affiliated with the churches of Christ that requires someone to formally affirm adherence to either one of those books in order to be recognized as a member. They simply aren't used the same way other traditions use the Westminster Confession of Faith, or the Nicene Creed.
There's a difference between a hugely influential book, like Mere Christianity or Why I am a Member of the Church of Christ, and a formal (i.e., credal) statement of faith like the Nicene Creed or the Augsburg Confession.
To be very blunt, while both of the books you mention are influential, the church of Christ congregation I've attended for the last 25 years doesn't use either one in its teaching or worship. We certainly don't ask prospective members, or prospective ministers, to affirm them. No congregation I've ever attended did.
I probably agree with most of what those books say. But our congregation simply does not use either one of them as a creed.
If by "creed" you simply mean that there's something I believe that I can describe to you if you ask me about it, then it seems to me that you're using the term in a way that's so trivial as to be almost meaningless. It just becomes a synonym for "belief." So yes, churches of Christ have many beliefs in common. But that's not the way the word is used when someone affiliated with the churches of Christ says "no creed but the Bible." What that statement means, as it is typically used by thoughtful members of the churches of Christ, is that we don't have a formal statement of faith the way many other church traditions do. Period. Full stop.
Please don't misunderstand. If you want to help churches of Christ engage more thoughtfully with Catholics and other credal traditions, then I'm all for that. If you want members of the churches of Christ to have a more sympathetic understanding of how those traditions use their creeds, and the role the creeds play in those traditions, then I'm all for that as well. I just don't think that draining the word "creed" of all meaning beyond "something I believe" is the way to do it. I also don't think implying that the various slogans used within the churches of Christ have the same role or standing as, for instance, the Nicene Creed is the way to do it either.
Well said. Amen.
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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MJ. Smith said:
No, but you "push" theological statements and "history" that are rather specific to your church without any apparent understanding of how many in the forums would disagree -- more so on history than on theology I suspect. You need to take into account that the Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, and Catholic Churches (among others) also claim to worship in the way Christians worshipped in the 1st century -- minus the synagogue services, of course, and claim their structure is based on the principles of history as given in the Acts of the Apostles. With a slight gap in documentation for part of the 2nd century they can document their growth (& decline esp. for the Oriental Orthodox) and evolution up to the present day. I suspect that the Protestant churches that value apostolic succession can as well.
BTW the New Testament includes baptismal creeds or portions thereof ...
I enjoy these discussions.... Thank everyone for them....
If by "theological statements" and "history".... you may have tagged me. I do try... and do this with myself more than anyone, to get people to think. I'll say that because (walking way out on a limb here)... I think most people don't "think" when it comes to religion.. (myself included in that)... They grew up in their parents religion (for the most part) and never questioned it.... And I know there are exceptions and that some people do think.... And there seems to be a hidden rule.... "Thou shalt not cause people to think... Ever!" And especially when it comes to religion. Well...
Now... .having said all that.... I DO NOT THINK I am right about anything..... but I am confident of what my studies have caused me to believe ... Confidence is not arrogance.... there is a HUGH difference in them..... I am confident where my studies have brought me.... but not arrogant enough to think I cannot learn more.... or to think I am the only one that's right... But it doesn't bother me to put out a statement.... and let other people tear it apart... that is one way for me to learn.... and I don't hold grudges with anyone... And if you read my posts in the threads... I do try to be kind...and show respect... I want to make friends not enemies.... really!
As to Baptismal creed in the NT.... I might agree if I knew what you had reference too. I do think the Bible teaches baptism outright and in example.... if that's what you mean... and... I'm all for it...[:D]
Hope that makes sense.... [8-|]
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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MJ. Smith said:EastTN said:
What that statement means, as it is typically used by thoughtful members of the churches of Christ, is that we don't have a formal statement of faith the way many other church traditions do. Period. Full stop.
Actually, a few years back I did see a creed (or proposed creed) out of Boise Bible College unofficially ... I may have a copy on an old computer.
Really? I hadn't heard that. I guess I'm not entirely surprised. Many churches in North America seem to be merging into a vague evangelicalism that doesn't pay that much attention to the details of doctrine. Churches of Christ aren't immune to that tendency.
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xnman said:
I think most people don't "think" when it comes to religion.. (myself included in that)... They grew up in their parents religion (for the most part) and never questioned it.... And I know there are exceptions and that some people do think.... And there seems to be a hidden rule.... "Thou shalt not cause people to think... Ever!" And especially when it comes to religion. Well...
Fortunately, this is not my experience nor my reading of my cohorts. Off the top of my head I can come up with only 4 family & friends members to which that generally applies.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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David Thomas said:
xnman said:
In the Bible.... all the congregations (local churches or such) were autonomous of each other.
Having grown up INDEPENDENT Fundamental Baptist, I used to believe this too (as promoted in James Carroll's booklet "The Trail of Blood"). But further study has convinced me that there was SOME FORM of mutual accountability When the Gentiles reported back to Jerusalem (Acts 15) and Paul's appointing of Elders (Timothy in Ephesus, Titus in Crete) and Paul's instructions to these pastors on who is an acceptable Elder or Deacon.
Fortunately, Logos allows me to consider both the Primary Source (Scripture) and Secondary sources (historians, authors, preachers, commentators) who attempt to describe the early church.
Acts 15 is a great and interesting study! Acts 15 was really a time of transition in the church. Some Jews thought and taught that one could be do the things needed to become a Christian... but if you were not circumcised you were not saved. That teaching was from some of the Jewish brethren that seemed to want to hang on to the Law of Moses. The transition was that since the death of Jesus... the Law of Moses had been fulfilled.... completed, done. Proof that is as simple as looking at when they worshipped.... The Law of Moses.... worship was on the Sabbath... Christians worshipped on the 1st day of the week.... Sunday...
But all this discussion in Act 15... was because of making a tradition into a Christian law... I.e. circumcism, or Law of Moses, Act 15:5 shows this. Notice something else that shows the transition in the church then.... Paul was an Apostle.... an inspired man! And yet the people decided to go back to Jerusalem to the elders and apostles there... in other words... elders were becoming more prominent and apostles were becoming less prominent...I find that interesting...
Final thought.... The Jerusalem Council.. as it is called... didn't degree anything that wasn't already in the word spoken by the Apostles....They just confirmed it. Eph 2:20... the church was built on the inspired words of the Apostles and prophets... as they were taught by Jesus and caused to remember by the Holy Spirit....
xn = Christan man=man -- Acts 11:26 "....and the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch".
Barney Fife is my hero! He only uses an abacus with 14 rows!
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