Bible Studies by Adolf Deissmann
This is ridiculously close to getting out of pre-pub ... someone want to volunteer to be its hawker?
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Curious about how this works . . .
It currently looks like it will cross for $8.
I had a bit for $13 but would gladly pay $18 for it.
If my increasing my bid to $18 meant that the final price was $9 or $10, I would be extremely happy.
Does increasing your bid help close the deal or do there have to be more individual purchases?
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No. It works based on a simple formula of Production Cost / # of boks sold (bids)Russ Quinn said:Does increasing your bid help close the deal or do there have to be more individual purchases?
So, if it costs $1,000 to produce this resource, then it works like this.
$1,000 cost /10 books sold (bids) = Sale price of $100 / book
$1,000 cost / 100 books sold (bids) - Sale price of $10 / book
So no matter how high you bid, the book price is determined by the total number of books sold (bid on), not the specific amount each user was willing to pay.
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Joe:
That works for the standard Pre-Pub where Logos sets the price but in Community Pricing the number of bidders required will be determined by an average bid price, e.g., if the production cost is $1,000 this can be covered by 1 bidder offering to pay $1,000 or 1000 bidders offering to pay $1. But I'm still confused by precisely how it works.
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Rereading the Community Pricing page,
is it reasonable to assume that
if the price is about to cross the threshold at $8,
increasing a bid from $13 to $18 would not help
but
increasing a bid from $7 or lower to $8 or or higher would?0 -
If you REALLY REALLY want it and you are really willing to pay $18 or so, why not place a second order from a second account ID (buy a copy for a friend or family member) and make both bids $9
That would help increase the number of bids and help push it into production......
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MJ. Smith said:
This is ridiculously close to getting out of pre-pub ... someone want to volunteer to be its hawker?
I sprung for it... I was not really interested in the book until I looked up the index on Google. I might be able to use it for school... Unfortunately it did not look like it changed anything
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Joe Miller said:
So no matter how high you bid, the book price is determined by the total number of books sold (bid on), not the specific amount each user was willing to pay.
This doesn't quite make sense. This method, as you describe above doesn't take into account future books sold. Once the ebook is produced there are no more production costs put into it--it never needs to be reprinted again. So, to base the price solely on bids seems a bit unbalanced.
Elder/Pastor, Hope Now Bible Church, Fresno CA
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Actually there are some "future" production costs, based on correcting typos, future format changes etc. But hopefully these are relatively minor.
Makes sense, however, if you consider that 85% to 90% of the sales are through the Community Pricing bids before it goes to production.
Then the price to us reflects the cost of production.
To me that beats what would otherwise be a speculative (and usually much higher) price based on what someone guesses sales might be. And for such speculative pricing, they had better be right more often than not else they go out of business....
Community pricing puts books into production that otherwise might never see the electronic light of day based on more speculative production methods. If we want it, we prove it by bidding on it. If not enough people want it then it stays parked here for quite a while.
So far I remember only one case where something was taken out of Community Pricing after languishing for a while and brought back as a time limited pre-pub at twice the Community Pricing median bid. It took a while but eventually enough people agreed that it was actually worth at least twice what they had bid and put it into production at the higher price (otherwise it would never have made it.... )
Future sales, after a Community pricing item goes into production, end up providing Logos some potential profit to defray the costs of developing and maintaning the "reader software".....
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That is called "profit"Roger Feenstra said:This method, as you describe above doesn't take into account future books sold.
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Right, but 100% profit margin? Come on
Elder/Pastor, Hope Now Bible Church, Fresno CA
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David J. Wilson said:
To me that beats what would otherwise be a speculative (and usually much higher) price based on what someone guesses sales might be.
I would have to disagree. In business, this is called forecasting (not speculative pricing). It is based on a responsible business decision that reflect prior sales and potential sales. And, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.
While Logos has some good Sales going on from time to time, there is no question that their prices are high. Check out the prices on e-sword for example. While there are not as many offerings, prices are greatly less than Logos on comparative product.
Some may say Logos prices are higher because they offer a superior product from competitors like e-sword. And their prices are higher because the development of this product takes money. Yes, but that is the cost of doing business. To an extent, Logos does not have a finished product yet. I could see paying higher prices for a product that is streamlined and efficient, but Logos simply isn't there yet. It still doesn't have all the bells and whistles.
Don't get me wrong, I am a Logos fan. But as customers, we should always be looking for the best prices--Logos has a monopoly right at the moment.
Elder/Pastor, Hope Now Bible Church, Fresno CA
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Roger, I agree with you that the list price on Logos books is higher than what I would like to see, but it is not fair to compare the prices with the few E-Sword modules. E-Sword is not a business and should be able to sell for less.
And even though Logos 4 is not a completed program yet, even the Libronix 3 program is far above the E-Sword program.
I have taught 100's of pastors how to use E-Sword and have given away a huge numbers of the E-Sword program, but I would never give up either Libronix 3 or Logos 4, for E-Sword, there is simply no comparison between the depth of studies you can do with either Libronix 3 or Logos 4 vs E-Sword. Apples to ...
But, why pay retail for Logos 4 shop the sales, I recently picked up 400+ top notch reference books for just a little over 400 dollars. Here are a few examples of some of those books:
A. W. Pink Collection (40 Vols.) $249.95
The Apostolic Fathers: Greek Texts and English Translations (6 Vols.) $99.95
Baker Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament (8 Vols.) $224.95
Baker New Testament Commentary (12 Vols.) $159.95
Believer’s Church Bible Commentary (19 Vols.) $349.95
Berkouwer’s Studies in Dogmatics (14 Vols.) $329.95
Charles Simeon’s Horae Homileticae Commentary (21 Vols.) $489.95
Classic Commentaries on the Greek New Testament (14 Vols.) $199.95
Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research $79.95
A Greek–English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, 3rd ed. (BDAG) $150.00
Oxford Movement Historical Theology Collection (10 Vols.) $124.95
Pillar New Testament Commentary (10 Vols.) $327.95Yes, I would like to see Logos have lower everyday prices, but is there some company out there that is giving package deals like this, that I don't know of??? If there is I really would like to know about them, because everytime I start to think about the high cost of Logos books and start shopping around I find it would cost me a lot more to replace my books in any other program than what I paid for them in Logos. Altogether I have over 3000 Logos resources and I have spent less than 3000 dollars for them!
Yes, their books cost more than I would like to see them at, but if I look at things fairly, nothing else that I can find comes close to them if you buy them on their sales!
By the way I no longer give out free E-Sword programs, because there is a much better program for free, www.theword.gr it has over 700 modules that I know of, and can do so much more than E-Sword the only problem right now is learning how to use all the features!
You can easily make your own modules of any public domain work. They are searchable, and you can even have hyper-text for the scriptures in your own books, it has notes, and you can make collection groups, and the language study area contains some really great books. But it is not in the same league as Logos! I must admit due to the high cost of Logos books I convert as many of my public domain books as I can into the Word, because I can still search them and I have more time than I have money. If Logos had their public domain books at lower prices I would buy more of them, because the over all Logos system is better!
In Christ,
Jim
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Roger Feenstra said:
This doesn't quite make sense. This method, as you describe above doesn't take into account future books sold. Once the ebook is produced there are no more production costs put into it--it never needs to be reprinted again. So, to base the price solely on bids seems a bit unbalanced.
Roger
I believe that for Pre-Pubs and Community Pricing, Logos only looks to recover initial production costs. Any future sales will be profit (minus overhead, of course). The bulk sales will come with the initial release, especially as the prices rise after initial production, sometimes dramatically.
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Roger Feenstra said:
Logos has a monopoly right at the moment.
But Logos dies not have a monopoly! There are other Bible Study programs out there, you even mentioned e-Sword. Logos owns their code; that also is good business.
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JackCaviness said:
I believe that for Pre-Pubs and Community Pricing, Logos only looks to recover initial production costs.
This is only true until they meet production cost. The period they remain on the pre-pub page between meeting production cost and the shipping of the product produces sales that do make Logos profit.
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Unfortunate that you need to disagree Roger when we are saying the same thing. You may choose to use "forecasting" rather than "speculative pricing" if you prefer, but in essence they are the same concept. And, yes, such forecasting can be and indeed is applied to the majority of Logos books (check the pre-pub pages).
Community Pricing is different as it generally involves titles for which there might be little or no demand. We do not get books as individual titles at $4 to $8 each based on your "forecasting" business model. We get them at that price with this model if (and only if) they prove unexpectedly popular. If you do not like the Community Pricing model then by all means avoid it and pay more or less elsewhere. I am sure you can find low priced or even free copies of many of these older titles if you are willing to settle for PDF, Text only or HTML versions. Many of us prefer the Logos format, as proven by the populatity of this sideline model.
The third model for Logos style books is PBB, which allows those with an interesting in doing so to make available copyright free titles to the Logos community. The quality of each of those titles depends a great deal on the time availability and skills of those producing them; many are indeed quite excellent, but not all.
Bottom line I think is that if Logos were operated as a simple business model of the type you seem to prefer, then we would probably get a lot fewer book titles offered and we would not get the engine development effort that we currently get at no additional cost. With Logos you get more than just the book itself, but you only pay for the books.
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David J. Wilson said:
Bottom line I think is that if Logos were operated as a simple business model of the type you seem to prefer, then we would probably get a lot fewer book titles offered and we would not get the engine development effort that we currently get at no additional cost. With Logos you get more than just the book itself, but you only pay for the books.
You might be right, David. Like I said earlier, I am a fan of Logos (I even have their little logo sticker on the window of my truck!). I don't, however, have a love affair with them. As a customer I want to see low prices and a product that is exemplary. I believe, truly, that Logs is striving for this. I was the president of a large Christian bookstore chain for many years and I worked with the Logos folks in getting their product into our stores. I have sold many many copies of their software--I liked it--have always like it. But it is because they ARE a business, and not a "ministry", we need to keep them honest (which I believe they are), and on their toes.
Roger
David J. Wilson said:If you do not like the Community Pricing model then by all means avoid it and pay more or less elsewhere.
P.S. I don't like Community Pricing, but the customer is kind of stuck once they buy the base program. It's like the airlines frequent flyer miles program. You get hooked on Delta because you have built up miles, and even though Delta may give you poor on-time service, you're still compelled to fly with them because of the miles you've built up. They've gotcha! [H]
Elder/Pastor, Hope Now Bible Church, Fresno CA
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P. Keith Larson said:JackCaviness said:
I believe that for Pre-Pubs and Community Pricing, Logos only looks to recover initial production costs.
This is only true until they meet production cost. The period they remain on the pre-pub page between meeting production cost and the shipping of the product produces sales that do make Logos profit.
I agree that production once sufficient orders have been made to cover cost, production begins. Then any additional orders will be profit (less overhead, or course). I really do not have a problem with Logos making a profit on the products they sell. If they don't make a profit, they cease to exist.
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Roger Feenstra said:David J. Wilson said:
If you do not like the Community Pricing model then by all means avoid it and pay more or less elsewhere.
P.S. I don't like Community Pricing, but the customer is kind of stuck once they buy the base program. It's like the airlines frequent flyer miles program. You get hooked on Delta because you have built up miles, and even though Delta may give you poor on-time service, you're still compelled to fly with them because of the miles you've built up. They've gotcha!
I don't understand your logic here. What does pre-pub have to do with Delta? What does Community Pricing have to do with the base program? You can own the base program and never participate in the community pricing program.
The fact that Barnes Notes have languished in Community Pricing reveals the fallacy of your reasoning. Over the years, there has been great demand for this product. Logos could have calculated that it would take $100 per copy to produce this resource if they sold 50,000 copies. After years on Community Pricing, the majority of bids remains near $30. Clearly Logos would have taken a tremendous financial hit if they had adopted your model.
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JackCaviness said:
The fact that Barnes Notes have languished in Community Pricing reveals the fallacy of your reasoning. Over the years, there has been great demand for this product. Logos could have calculated that it would take $100 per copy to produce this resource if they sold 50,000 copies. After years on Community Pricing, the majority of bids remains near $30. Clearly Logos would have taken a tremendous financial hit if they had adopted your model.
Jack, you may be right, but surely this is anecdotal? Sometimes, you have to take a hit on one product, but you make it up on another.
JackCaviness said:I don't like Community Pricing, but the customer is kind of stuck once they buy the base program.
What other retailer (and Logos is a retailer on one side of their business) asks its customers, before bringing in a product, how much they will be willing to spend on it?
My point is, once you spend hundreds, or thousands of dollars, you must continue buying from Logos, in the Logos format (Hence my analogy--which may be a weak one--with airlines; Delta or whomever).
Additionally, there are no other competitors out there (I could be wrong...been wrong once or twice in my life). Can I go to another website, right now, and buy books that will sync with my L4?
So, again, I repeat...I like Logos. It is amazing. I sometimes get the idea that if anyone challenges Logos on anything, they are an infidel--I'm not.
Elder/Pastor, Hope Now Bible Church, Fresno CA
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Can you go to another web site, right now, and buy books that will sync with your L4 ?
Well if you want to get super technical and avoid going via L3 perhaps you have a point. But if you were willing to install them on L3 then sync your licenses and have L4 pick them up then you could go to quite a number of web sites to get books in Logos format.
Start with Nelson Ministry Services and their eBible downloads, http://www.nelsonministryservices.com/nms/dept.asp?dept_id=708&ref=WelcomeEbibleUser
(You will find most of the titles available via the Logos web site as well, but if you want to pay more for shipping boxed products you can get them direct from Nelson)Many other publishers who offer books in Logos format also offer them in other formats if you prefer, and many only market via retailers, prefering to sell only hard copy books directly from their web sites. Check out the links from http://www.libronix.com/page.aspx?id=techpartners0 some of them are still quite active.
Check out a number of on-line Christian Book publishers and search their sites for "Logos" or "libronix" to get lists of titles available that are not published directly by Logos.
And yes, technically most of these are still in L3 format, a few even in L2 format: but they work in L4.
And later in 2010 (happy new year!!) we should be able to use our PBB collections in L4 http://www.stilltruth.com/topics/technology/libronix/pbb where you can go right now and add content to your L3 base packages (the ones that come with the PBB reader that is....
Not being a collector of Delta points I am not sure I see your analogies: I am a Star Alliance member which gives me a wide variety of world class airlines to travel on and multiple means of collecting and redeeming points. Delta is not one of them http://www.staralliance.com/en/
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David J. Wilson said:
I am a Star Alliance member which gives me a wide variety of world class airlines to travel on and multiple means of collecting and redeeming points.
Uncle! I will officially drop the Delta analogy [:#]
David J. Wilson said:And later in 2010 (happy new year!!) we should be able to use our PBB collections in L4
Now that is good news. Thanks.
Elder/Pastor, Hope Now Bible Church, Fresno CA
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Roger Feenstra said:JackCaviness said:
I don't like Community Pricing, but the customer is kind of stuck once they buy the base program.
Roger
This is a small point, but if you quote me please quote something I actually said. You quoted me as making a statement that you actually made.
Roger Feenstra said:My point is, once you spend hundreds, or thousands of dollars, you must continue buying from Logos, in the Logos forma
I am not required to continue buying from Logos just because I once purchased a package. I am free to switch to another product anytime I choose. Now if I choose to purchase a new product in Logos format, I am still not required to purchase from Logos, although that may change in the near future. But even if i am, how is the different from other proprietary products? I also use Accordance, and I must purchase their products from Oak Tree. I honestly don't understand what any of this has to do with the Community Pricing Program. I know that you managed a large chain of Christian book stores, but you are still comparing apples to oranges. Community Pricing is a good deal for Logos and an even better deal for us customers. As I said before, if you don't like it, don't participate. Better still, don't continually criticize a program that you obviously don't understand.
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Huh... maybe that is the same business model that has forced every Christian bookstore in our area to close their doors. To many risks + no profit = closed doors.Roger Feenstra said:JackCaviness said:The fact that Barnes Notes have languished in Community Pricing reveals the fallacy of your reasoning. Over the years, there has been great demand for this product. Logos could have calculated that it would take $100 per copy to produce this resource if they sold 50,000 copies. After years on Community Pricing, the majority of bids remains near $30. Clearly Logos would have taken a tremendous financial hit if they had adopted your model.
Jack, you may be right, but surely this is anecdotal? Sometimes, you have to take a hit on one product, but you make it up on another.
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Joe Miller said:
Huh... maybe that is the same business model that has forced every Christian bookstore in our area to close their doors. To many risks + no profit = closed doors.
Duh, or, it could be competition, like Amazon and Wal-mart. They certainly ask us what they should charge for a product, don't they?
Elder/Pastor, Hope Now Bible Church, Fresno CA
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JackCaviness said:
This is a small point, but if you quote me please quote something I actually said. You quoted me as making a statement that you actually made.
I apologize. A slip of the mouse!
JackCaviness said:Community Pricing is a good deal for Logos and an even better deal for us customers.
Okay. You and I can agree to disagree on this issue. It's not really a big deal to me. I will buy the books I really need. If the price is not right, I won't. That's the free market. My point was...again...I know I'm not required to buy...but...because I already have $$$ tied up in the program...I am compelled to keep buying them...because...there is nowhere else to buy them.
I am not criticizing. I am stating my opinion. I respect yours.
Roger
Elder/Pastor, Hope Now Bible Church, Fresno CA
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MJ. Smith said:
This is ridiculously close to getting out of pre-pub ... someone want to volunteer to be its hawker?
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An considering that " The Commentary of Zacharias Ursinus on the Heidelberg Catechism" just came out of community publishing where you could have bought it for $7 and now is in prepub for $14.95 - Community Pricing is by far the cheapest way to buy individual titles.
Hey Logos, how about adding a few more titles into community pricing for consideration?
Scripture set to music for worship and aid memorization. https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC-DojPa0TlpCGhtUJq1e3Pw
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MJ. Smith said:
This is ridiculously close to getting out of pre-pub ... someone want to volunteer to be its hawker?
This has crossed the line at $8.00 and closes on Friday, Jan 9 (tomorrow). With some more support it might get down to $7.00.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Just received an email that said my bid was successful for Bible Studies by Adolf Deissmann.
Price closed at $8.
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15" rMBP 2.6 GHz i7 | 16 GB RAM | 1.0 TB Flash Drive | OS X 10.12.3 | Logos 7.0 (7.3.0.0062)
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Otto S. Carroll said:
Just received an email that said my bid was successful for Bible Studies by Adolf Deissmann.
Price closed at $8.
Now on Pre-Pub for $19 http://www.logos.com/products/prepub/details/2507
Ted
Dell, studio XPS 7100, Ram 8GB, 64 - bit Operating System, AMD Phenom(mt) IIX6 1055T Processor 2.80 GHZ
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I did not realize that community pricing was THAT good. So all of us who bid for it there, now that its at a higher price in Pre-Pub, will still pay the smaller amount. That is pretty cool.
newbie
nancy
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Nancy A. Almodovar said:
I did not realize that community pricing was THAT good. So all of us who bid for it there, now that its at a higher price in Pre-Pub, will still pay the smaller amount. That is pretty cool.
newbie
nancy
It was close enough that I think with only a few more bids we could have gotten it for $7.00.
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
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Roger Feenstra said:
In business, this is called forecasting (not speculative pricing). It is based on a responsible business decision that reflect prior sales and potential sales. And, sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.
If Logos is guided by the "owe no man anything" directive they would simply count the cost and wait for the Community Price to reach that threshold. You can never lose with that business model. [:D]
Roger Feenstra said:To an extent, Logos does not have a finished product yet. I could see paying higher prices for a product that is streamlined and efficient, but Logos simply isn't there yet. It still doesn't have all the bells and whistles.
Trust me. Bob will probably always be improving, streamlining and adding "bells & whistles" to the Logos program. Any grand project takes a lot of planning, construction and tweeking. It took 21 years to build this one:
Roger Feenstra said:Logos has a monopoly right at the moment
Not really. Logos has peers in the Bible software industry, just no competetion when it comes to features, content and power. We are closer now than ever to truly having a standard in the Bible software industry. That standard is Logos.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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