Question: Can Logos perform this search for me?

I see that when a character speaks in the Hebrew Bible, the quote is marked with a small icon (blowhorn?). I wonder if I can search for all clauses which contain a quote of a character and are immediately followed by a clause with "say" as the predicate and the same character speaking in the previous clause as the subject.

For instance Gen 20:9-10

Anyone knows?

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Comments

Dave Hooton

Clause Search addresses a single clause but provides the character conveyed by pronouns/speech. Syntax Search can address multiple clauses but does not convey the character behind a pronoun or a verb of speech ("say", "said"), thus defeating use of the Agreement operator.

David Knoll

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/599670#Comment_599670

Thank you!

I hope Logos extends the Agreement operator to the rest of the searches.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/599678#Comment_599678

Agreement is not applicable to Clause Search for the reasons stated e.g. you can see Gen 20:9-10 as two results in the query person:Abimelech (king of Gerar) verb:to say, mention, think, command. Even if applied to other searches, Agreement still won't match the character implied by pronouns or verbs of speech unless there are databases based on the resource.

David Knoll

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/599728#Comment_599728

I wonder if the high definition OT could be of assistance to me. Have you had a chance to work with it? Are there plans to implement a database based on the data stated above?

Fred Chapman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/599823#Comment_599823

Dave is the forum syntax search expert so I cannot add anything of value to this thread. However, I was wondering what value or benefit of running a search as described might provide? Not being critical, just curious as to how such a search might be useful.

David Knoll

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/599846#Comment_599846

Dave is the forum syntax search expert so I cannot add anything of value to this thread. However, I was wondering what value or benefit of running a search as described might provide? Not being critical, just curious as to how such a search might be useful.

I assume that the writers of the narrative of the Hebrew Bible had their literary and artistic conventions. This phenomenon seen is Gen 20:9-10 is not that straightforward. If I was writing a story I would not write:

And Andrew said to John: "You should go to the supermarket and buy milk and don't forget to prepare dinner for your mother she works late today"

And Andrew said to John: "I think we are running out of milk"

Westermann following Jacob explains this as a change in the goal of the question in verse 10 from the goal of the two questions in verse 9 (2 rhetorical against information seeking). Alter on the other hand takes the second introduction of Abimelech's speech in verse 10 to indicate the passing of time during which Abraham did not respond. Now if I could look at all the occurrences of this phenomenon (and there are other) I could perhaps decide which explanation is more plausible and better understand the artistic conventions of the Hebrew Bible narrative.

Hope this answers your question.

Fred Chapman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/599853#Comment_599853

Dave is the forum syntax search expert so I cannot add anything of value to this thread. However, I was wondering what value or benefit of running a search as described might provide? Not being critical, just curious as to how such a search might be useful.

I assume that the writers of the narrative of the Hebrew Bible had their literary and artistic conventions. This phenomenon seen is Gen 20:9-10 is not that straightforward. If I was writing a story I would not write:

And Andrew said to John: "You should go to the supermarket and buy milk and don't forget to prepare dinner for your mother she works late today"

And Andrew said to John: "I think we are running out of milk"

Westermann following Jacob explains this as a change in the goal of the question in verse 10 from the goal of the two questions in verse 9 (2 rhetorical against information seeking). Alter on the other hand takes the second introduction of Abimelech's speech in verse 10 to indicate the passing of time during which Abraham did not respond. Now if I could look at all the occurrences of this phenomenon (and there are other) I could perhaps decide which explanation is more plausible and better understand the artistic conventions of the Hebrew Bible narrative.

Hope this answers your question.

That makes sense and does answer my question. Thanks

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/599859#Comment_599859

Bob has expressed interest in the past in making Logos databases available for custom searches by scholars. As I recall there may have even been a prototype. This is a perfect example of the type of search that would need to be supported.

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/599853#Comment_599853

Now if I could look at all the occurrences of this phenomenon (and there are other) I could perhaps decide which explanation is more plausible and better understand the artistic conventions of the Hebrew Bible narrative.

This might be useful even with the limitations of Agree:

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

the quote is marked with a small icon (blowhorn?)

The small icon is a Speaker label:

I wonder if I can search for all clauses which contain a quote of a character and are immediately followed by a clause with "say" as the predicate and the same character speaking in the previous clause as the subject.

Bible Search can use proximity with results that can be compared to Syntax Search.

Learned Genesis 26:9-10 has more to say since Isaac replied to Abimelech

Keep Smiling [:)]

David Knoll

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/599969#Comment_599969

Thank you all. I have just tried Dave's search (and immediately discovered more examples) but it seems my own example of Gen 20 doesn't show up in the results. Why is that?

Dave Hooton

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/600538#Comment_600538

I have just tried Dave's search (and immediately discovered more examples) but it seems my own example of Gen 20 doesn't show up in the results

Because Abimelek is only named in one clause (in the Hebrew bible) and Agreement needs an exact match.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/600538#Comment_600538

... but it seems my own example of Gen 20 doesn't show up in the results. Why is that?

Abimelech called Abraham

Keep Smiling [:)]