How much is enough?

My wife and I have been talking (to each other and to God), these last couple of days about upgrading our L4 scholar. As we look at the massive amount of information being offered to us (as visualized by the blog), I just had to start wondering, how much do I need to really understand God's Word and how much is simply pride of ownership?

For instance, L4 has original language tools that are to die for, yet how many of the people who wrote the words that God directed them took any consideration of the rules and structure of the grammar of the language that they were using? Yet we covet tools that allow us to split a grammatical hair at 100 yards. Why?

I can search the words of the Church Fathers, I can parse the musings of the great theologians of the ages. But how does this enhance my understanding of God's Holy Word? How does this help me to be a better servant (slave) for Him?

These are questions that I am wrestling with, as I pursue a life that honors Him.

BTW, please understand that this is not meant to decrease Logos' sales by one dime, these are the questions that I had to consider in deciding which package to upgrade to (because we ARE going to upgrade). Nor is my mention of original language studies meant to denigrate anyones use of them (I still have scars from my Greek classes and I wear them with pride).

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Comments

Jack Caviness

Good questions that each of us should ask prior to hitting the Order button. There is/will be no one answer that fits everyone. We all have different interest (even if we all have the same goal), different students, different… well you get the idea. Personally, I saw a lot that I would use in the Platinum package that made it worth the upgrade price, AND I examined my finances and saw that I could afford it. But each customer must make their own decisions.

Lynden O. Williams

For instance, L4 has original language tools that are to die for, yet how many of the people who wrote the words that God directed them took any consideration of the rules and structure of the grammar of the language that they were using? Yet we covet tools that allow us to split a grammatical hair at 100 yards. Why?

I can search the words of the Church Fathers, I can parse the musings of the great theologians of the ages. But how does this enhance my understanding of God's Holy Word? How does this help me to be a better servant (slave) for Him?

These are questions that I am wrestling with, as I pursue a life that honors Him.

The people who wrote the scriptures and those who heard/read them did not need all tools that we need because they used the language everyday. When writing this short paragraph, I did not use one grammatical tool. (I speak English everyday) You will not use one to read it either. Even if I mispelled a wrod, you would proably understand what I am saying.

We are 2000 years or more removed from their culture, Hebrew and Greek are not our mother tongue (at least most of us)so we use tools to help us understand teh word of God.

In the Bahamas if I walk into my study and ask my elders "you straight" they will know what I am refering to. In most countries the same question could cause me plenty of trouble?

In short, gett the tools that will assist you in getting as close to the culture and language of the time.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/68230#Comment_68230

In the Bahamas if I walk into my study and ask my elders "you straight" they will know what I am refering to. In most countries the same question could cause me plenty of trouble?

In short, gett the tools that will assist you in getting as close to the culture and language of the time.

Lynden,

Not only was that funny, you made a good point brother....

Anything to help us better understand what God said to us, is a good thing...

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/68233#Comment_68233

Terry, you are making a great point, and it is one of the things that we must constantly be aware of. If anything comes between us and our Lord, we are going to have problems.

Our libraries can be useful tools so that we can better understand God's revelation and what it means to us today, but they can also become the center of our attention. Hopefully God is telling each and everyone of us, if we have stepped across this line or not.

For me, I can be on one side of the line one day and on the other side of the line a few hours latter.

Who is our first love?

Is God our passion?

God is the only resource that really fulfills us, He is our reward and all that we need.

CHAPTER 15

¹ After these things the word of the LORD came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.

The Holy Bible : King James Version. 1995 (electronic ed. of the 1769 edition of the 1611 Authorized Version.) (Ge 15:1). Bellingham WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

In Christ,

Jim

DMB

Like everyone else, Bible study is personal. I started out with the Original Languages package because I wanted to verify for myself some of the criticisms of the writing patterns. But what fascinates me even more is that much of the new information is very useful to others who really can't spend the time. For example, we live a small canyon with orchards and digging into why Jesus got so angry with a 'lazy' tree on the way to Jerusalem really makes the account vivid for others. Just yesterday, the Mishnah had some more background information on the tree-problem!

Roger Feenstra

How does this help me to be a better servant (slave) for Him?

These are questions that I am wrestling with, as I pursue a life that honors Him.

I love this kind of thinking...

We must always remember that prayer and the Holy Spirit are the two essential ingredients to our study. We must study, but we also must beware of book knowledge alone. Solomon (through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit) in Ecclesiastics 12.12 said, "Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh."

It's all about balance. Select the books you will use to enhance your study through the working of the Holy Spirit.

Paul Golder

I can search the words of the Church Fathers, I can parse the musings of the great theologians of the ages. But how does this enhance my understanding of God's Holy Word? How does this help me to be a better servant (slave) for Him?

Hi Terry,

This is an entirely subjective question, and the answer will be different for everyone. For me, as a book collector, there is never enough [:)]

Here is something I posted a few months ago:

Wilbert Webster White (father of the inductive Bible study method, and
founder of the Biblical Seminary in NY) was quoted as saying: "All
one needs is a faithful English version of the Bible and a good
dictionary, and he will be equipped for every work in Christ Jesus."

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/68327#Comment_68327

This is an entirely subjective question, and the answer will be different for everyone.

Paul, I learned a long time ago that I enjoy questions more than answers [;)] I never meant for anyone to answer this FOR me, I do appreciate those whom have answered it for themselves and been kind enough to share it with all of us. When I posted this I had already answered the question for myself, I just wanted to make everyone else suffer through the process as well. [:D]

Doug

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/68495#Comment_68495

This was a thoughtful question Terry. It seems I can never have enough and it's easy to justify it because I'm "doing it for God." But at the end of the day, have I walked in the light as He is in the light? If I have, then God and I have fellowship with one another. Reading about Him (even in the Word itself) only helps if I can walk it out to know Him better.

I can say this though. This software (particularly L3, haven't had L4 long enough yet) has helped me to more accurately divide the Word. I think it has helped me to see past some of the denominational issues taught in churches (mine and others) to more clearly see what the Word is really saying. I count it a valuable tool.

How many books are enough? Really one is enough. A good translation of the scriptures is all that's required. But the others are helpful. How much help do I need? Just ask my wife!

Rosie Perera

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/68706#Comment_68706

Terry, I really appreciate your excellent soul-searching question. I have sensed that some of my book purchases have been motivated out of an insatiable quest for more knowledge (or at least more access to knowledge, whether I'll actually use it or not). It is precisely the sin which our forbears in the Garden of Eden stumbled on. The quest for knowledge -- independent of God -- that one doesn't need.

I recently upgraded to the Portfolio base product because of several resources in it which I'd had on my wish list for some time which I realized would be cheaper to buy if I simply upgraded to that highest package, and it came with a bunch of other stuff too, which I wasn't really wanting, but some of which I've found to be interesting. I said here on the forum after upgrading "There is nothing left in my 'books to lust after' list" -- but it turned out that it didn't take me long (two days!) to start going through Logos's entire catalogue of books to see if there was anything else they had which I might be interested in buying someday, and sure enough, I've populated my book-lust-list again.

Ecclesiastes 5:10 says it well (with my amendments due to a recently discovered textual error in the original manuscripts [;)]): "He who loves money books never has money books enough." Here is the more extended version in the TNIV, which seems to have been translated from the corrected manuscripts:

Rich DeRuiter

My wife and I have been talking (to each other and to God), these last couple of days about upgrading our L4 scholar. As we look at the massive amount of information being offered to us (as visualized by the blog), I just had to start wondering, how much do I need to really understand God's Word and how much is simply pride of ownership?

My son started mechanic's school: tractors, if you're interested. The starter set of tools was > $6000.

My Dad is a carpenter by trade (retired now). He has several thousand in tools as well.

I'm a volunteer firefighter. Our department just bought a new truck: > $100,000 (it's a small one, if you're interested I can tell you more).

My point: I'm a pastor, these books are my tools. Like my Dad, my son and my fire department we buy what we need to get the job done, and the best we can afford.

I'm not a professional musician but I have 3 guitars and a bass guitar, an amp chords, a sound processor, and hundreds of dollars in music. The hobby mechanic, carpenter, etc. Will spend about what you can afford, in relation to how much value you put on your hobby and your tools.

The same for the one who studies the Bible for the joy of it (a true 'amateur'). How deep do you want to go? Where do you want to go next? You are free to let your interest be your guide (as a pastor, I'm supposed to be interested in everything - or at least be able to deal with the whole counsel of God).

This doesn't really answer your question, but it may provide another way of thinking about it.

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/68735#Comment_68735

I'm not a professional musician but I have 3 guitars and a bass guitar, an amp chords, a sound processor, and hundreds of dollars in music. The hobby mechanic, carpenter, etc. Will spend about what you can afford, in relation to how much value you put on your hobby and your tools.

The same for the one who studies the Bible for the joy of it (a true 'amateur'). How deep do you want to go? Where do you want to go next? You are free to let your interest be your guide (as a pastor, I'm supposed to be interested in everything - or at least be able to deal with the whole counsel of God).

Richard, I have 3 guitars on the wall behind me, and a fourth sitting on the stand next to my desk. I have a fully stocked wood shop where I turn expensive wood into sawdust on a regular basis. As a former pastor, I do not believe that we are held to any different standards (by God) in our handling of God's Word than our congregations. But that isn't where I was trying to head. What I am taking about is not a hobby, or a vocation or even a calling. It is the question of what I need in the way of resources to have a the relationship with Jesus Christ, my creator, my God, that he wants me to have. One of the reason that it is important to me, is that I am an example to those people whom I preach and teach. Is my example one that says you have to spend a 1000 dollars on software before you can study your bible? Is it one that says your translation is untrustworthy, and only by learning the original languages and spending even more money grammars and lexicons will you really be able to understand God's Word? Or is my example one that says love God, love his Word and he will supply your need.

I am a GEEK! I love the shiny new toys. I love to hike, I carry exercise monitors and GPS's. I have trekking poles, and hydration packs. I carry special nutrients to maximize my potential and it is a constant source of amusement for my hiking partners. I never give a second thought to what example my choice of equipment is too them. But when it comes to my relationship with God, and living a life that tells others what it is like to be a Christian. That is important enough for me to agonize over.

Richard, thank you for the conversation...

Rich DeRuiter

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/68768#Comment_68768

What I am taking about is not a hobby, or a vocation or even a calling. It is the question of what I need in the way of resources to have a the relationship with Jesus Christ, my creator, my God, that he wants me to have. One of the reason that it is important to me, is that I am an example to those people whom I preach and teach.

Here's the one thing necessary: believe in, love and trust God completely and be transformed by him, more and more each day. God does this for illiterate people on a daily basis. All you need to continue to grow in this relationship with Jesus is His Spirit, whom He freely gives to all who ask Him.

Period.

As we struggle with all that this means, let's not forget the center is not dependent on us, or on Logos, or on books. It's a God thing.

So what's the place of Bible study? First: to get to know God better through His self-revelation. What a gift His Word is to us! Second to know what He expects and wants of us.

The serious Bible student just goes into either that first or second thing in more depth, and with greater subtlety. We want to remove the layers of self, flesh, world, culture, etc. that filter out what shouldn't be, and let in what shouldn't be let in. Occasionally we make great discoveries in our own areas of blindness, or resistance and become open to greater things than we thought were possible. We come to understand God in his 'highness' and are in humble awe. Or we see Him humbled in a manger, or on a cross, tempted in every way like us, and we find a friend, companion and brother.

Often it is the shared experience of discovering the God of the Bible that we find in books that help us make those breakthroughs. Occasionally we make a life-changing discovery on our own.

That little bit about shared experience is where Logos helps. One of God's favorite way of speaking to us is through others. I like to listen when He speaks. Now, not all of what we have in these books is 'gospel truth,' of course. But in their own way, each is pointing the way. Trying to put into words what are the unsearchable riches of God. Those fragments of text are more than tools, they are treasures.

As a musician you probably understand that a good worship song or hymn puts into words what our hearts long to say, but are not sure how to say. Some of these works 'sing' in that way. Some sing unfamiliar tunes, and I don't quite follow them. But even then I wonder what I might be missing that they have. Other times having a different understanding of the lyric changes the song completely.

And sometimes the writer is just plain wrong and ought to be ignored.

Agonize. Yes, wrestle like Jacob and Epaphras. I know the burden: a blessed agony that makes us press in and find the next nugget that satisfies and at the same time requires us to get the next.

Buy what helps the struggle move forward, knowing that nothing you buy is really the struggle, only something that might help you wrestle with more skill.

Terry Poperszky

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/68793#Comment_68793

Here's the one thing necessary: believe in, love and trust God completely and be transformed by him, more and more each day. God does this for illiterate people on a daily basis. All you need to continue to grow in this relationship with Jesus is His Spirit, whom He freely gives to all who ask Him.

Buy what helps the struggle move forward, knowing that nothing you buy is really the struggle, only something that might help you wrestle with more skill

Richard, thank you for taking the time to respond. While IMHO your first paragraph and your last paragraph are the most important, everything in between accurately states the issues as well.