Cult, Orthodox, Evangelical or Sect: Find out for yourself
This set of books gives a good idea as to the beliefs of the Adventist Church.
https://www.logos.com/product/43425/biblical-research-institute
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
Comments
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Bump.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Lynden, how are these books better, ie add more information, than is in the top SDA bundle?
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Yes, Lynden, please elaborate.Robert Harner said:Lynden, how are these books better, ie add more information, than is in the top SDA bundle?
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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And why would you want to reopen the old CULT can of worms. This set is not designed to defend against those charges. Why kick a dead horse? [^o)]Robert Harner said:Lynden, how are these books better, ie add more information, than is in the top SDA bundle?
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Well, I'm pretty sure there are at least one or two resources in Logos that level that charge at SDAs...I'm pretty sure it's something they've just become accustomed to hearing. Sorta similar to what the Catholic Church often hears from Protestant circles. It's pretty ironic, but there are more than just a few similarities between the two groups. As a Sabbatarian myself, I've noticed that Sunday groups tend to look askance at Sabbath observance, and some have no trouble tossing the cult label based on that practice alone. I'm pretty much an anti-denominationalist, so in my view SDAs are still in the same boat with all the other named churches out there, except they keep Shabbat. Considering the four descriptors above, becoming less of a cult or sect and more Orthodox and Evangelical doesn't constitute an improvement in my view.
Still, I find that some SDA prophecy has more going for it than a lot of traditional Sunday prophecy, mainly because Sunday observance per se eviscerates basic prophetic concepts. The Sabbath is one of the fundamental conceptual building blocks of the entire panorama of prophecy, which is just one of many reasons why it must be "remembered".
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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No Contest! They definitely got the day right. However, Their attempt at interpreting prophecy took a tragic turn at the movement's foundation. (1844) The Sanctuary Doctrine that grew from that "Great Disappointment" is still a pillar of SDA beliefs, and can NOT be substantiated by Scripture. Note that the SDA founders had close ties to Seventh Day Baptists. A movement that still exists on a limited scale. They too have the day right and do not attempt to promote the "Sanctuary Doctrine" or "Investigative Judgment".David Paul said:The Sabbath is one of the fundamental conceptual building blocks of the entire panorama of prophecy, which is just one of many reasons why it must be "remembered".
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There is a Seventh Day Baptist church a few miles east of Huntsville, AL...a dozen folks would find the building uncomfortably cramped.
My personal feeling is that if SDAs cut themselves free of a couple of doctrinal anchors, they would be in a much healthier position on many fronts. But that wouldn't be Adventism any longer. Like most denominations, in which the "founder" typically saw a particular doctrinal flub in the church-at-large and moved to correct that error (often this single move was the right call), the problems begin in the "what comes next" phase. In most cases, that one little, limited piece of the puzzle is the entire bit of Scriptural insight that was allotted to the founder, and all the rest of the doctrinal baggage that makes up the difference is no better and at times is often worse than what the "other" denominations are doing. This is the history of Christianity in a nutshell, and it ought to alarm everyone involved. But it doesn't, and the reason is that...that's ALL there is. There's broken here, and there's broken there--everywhere you look is broken--and no one gets too alarmed because if everything everywhere is broken, then that must be okay, right? It's just people being broken sinners is all...
The arc of prophesy doesn't dispute this state of affairs--in fact, it describes it perfectly! Unfortunately, it also judges it unmercifully. No group, regardless of doctrine, is safe. The problem is much more systemic than denominational fracturing--or ecumenism, for that matter--can ever hope to overcome.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Dear Brother David;
This is a Golden Day!
Usually I agree with Much of what you say. I have learned to take what I can use, and leave the rest. On this rare occasion, I can say Amen to everything you wrote. Praise God!
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Paul C said:
Their attempt at interpreting prophecy took a tragic turn at the movement's foundation. (1844) The Sanctuary Doctrine that grew from that "Great Disappointment" is still a pillar of SDA beliefs, and can NOT be substantiated by Scripture.
Did not look at the article in wikipedia.
See if this set has its foundation in scripture and if your views change about the Sanctuary doctrine. https://www.logos.com/product/37737/daniel-and-revelation-committee-series [:)]
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Super.Tramp said:
Yes, Lynden, please elaborate.Robert Harner said:Lynden, how are these books better, ie add more information, than is in the top SDA bundle?
Started on another computer last night, will finish and post this morning.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Super.Tramp said:
Yes, Lynden, please elaborate.Robert Harner said:Lynden, how are these books better, ie add more information, than is in the top SDA bundle?
Controversial for some Adventist, but this book will answer some of the questions. https://www.logos.com/product/38541/questions-on-doctrine
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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The DARCOM series helped define who we are and our mission, one of the reasons why I kept asking for it in Logos. Reading through book two, some have started on book three already.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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No Thanks! I will not buy any more twisted interpretation of Scripture. I devoted 3 months to this study. The 3rd Quarterly in 2006 was devoted to an attempt to justify the 1844 - Sanctuary - Investigative Judgement debacle. http://ssnet.org/qrtrly/eng/06c/ (The Quarterly is a daily study that spans 3 months... Hence "Quarterly") I suppose you could view it as the SDA's Lectionary. I studied daily. I read every entry. ... Followed every link. The more I dug, the more I saw that the doctrine is FALSE. There are great men...Still devoted to Adventism who maintain that the movement should give up and admit the error. They didn't just devote 3 months to the study. They devoted their lives trying to make the Adventist views line up with Scripture. (Or Vice Versa) They could not. I would suggest Logos add a little work titled "The "Sanctuary Doctrine"- Asset or Liability?" by Raymond Cottrell.Lynden Williams said:Did not look at the article in wikipedia.
See if this set has its foundation in scripture and if your views change about the Sanctuary doctrine. https://www.logos.com/product/37737/daniel-and-revelation-committee-series
Cottrell was a respected Theologian. He was a contributing editor of the Adventist Commentary. While working on the commentary, he found discrepancies. He devoted the next 20 plus years trying to rectify the "inconsistencies" in the doctrine. Shortly before his death he offered the heartfelt plea to the SDA's to abandon the erroneous doctrine. They apparently are too invested in the tradition to admit the error.
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Robert Harner said:
Lynden, how are these books better, ie add more information, than is in the top SDA bundle?
For starters, the material in this collection is not represented in the Sda Silver. The last volume ( is a summary of the DARCOM series dealing with the Sanctuary.
Understanding Scripture: An Adventist Approach, vol. 1
Interpreting Scripture: Bible Questions and Answers, vol. 2
In the first title, it gives an "Adventist" hermeneutic on how to study the scriptures. The basic pricniple is also found one of the books found in the Seventh-day Advetnist Bible Commentary Expanded Edition" Handbook for Bible Study.
In the second volume, is our answer to passages usually presented by others in a discussion which would disprove Adventist teaching.
The Sda Silver and this set compliment each other.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Exactly! The SDA's Prophetess "Was Shown" that this doctrine was sound. It is impossible to admit the False/Flawed Doctrine without casting doubt on the Prophetess.Paul C said:Shortly before his death he offered the heartfelt plea to the SDA's to abandon the erroneous doctrine. They apparently are too invested in the tradition to admit the error.
The SDA's have their hands full right now. They are faced with another irony. (Some view it as hypocrisy) The denomination is based largely on the teachings of Ellen G. White. But somehow they view it heresy for modern women to be ordained.
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Come on guys. Buy the Sda Bronze package or the one in the link above. We cannot have an intelligent discussion if we do not agree on terms of the discussion.
Now if you have genuine information from Adventist material then we can move the discussion to http://christiandiscourse.com/ . That is the reason it was set up. [:)]
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Still hoping Logos can obtain the rights for this. http://www.adventistbookcenter.com/seventh-day-adventists-believe.html
Ok. Confession time. Started this tread to speed up the process of getting this set from the Biblical Research Institure into production. Not too many new orders based on the bar. Lots of views based on the topic. [;)]
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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Therein lies the flaw in your "Logic" You seem to assume the only "Genuine Information" is gleaned from Adventist Material. I Strongly disagree.Lynden Williams said:Now if you have genuine information from Adventist material
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Paul, primary souce is the best place to find information. If you want to know what x believes, then see what x has to say. That is why I buy materials from across the Christian spectrum. That is preferred than heresey.
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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That well may be. But as your confession reveals, The title of the thread was designed as a shock factor to attempt to promote a resource that is very tightly focused on your theology.Lynden Williams said:That is why I buy materials from across the Christian spectrum.
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Best way to know what I believe is to ask Paul. No need to for second hand opinions from those biased against the belief. Get it from the real macoy. [:)]
Mission: To serve God as He desires.
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I lend no credence to opinions formed from anything other than hands on knowledge/experience. Folks who have not been SDAs are not as qualified to criticise. That's why I cited Raymond Cottrell. He lived and died a devout SDA, but saw the error in the doctrine. There are hundreds ...if not thousands of others who have chosen, or been forced to leave the denomination because they could not accept this doctrine. Just to be clear, I find the bulk of SDA beliefs to be Biblical. In some areas...much more so than the mainstream. This particular facet is causing a multitude of possible members to flee because of the deception.Lynden Williams said:No need to for second hand opinions from those biased against the belief.
In this electronic/computerized age, It is much harder to delude seekers. .... Especially young, tech savvy seekers. The truth is much more accessible.
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Lynden Williams said:
Paul, primary souce is the best place to find information. If you want to know what x believes, then see what x has to say. That is why I buy materials from across the Christian spectrum.
[Y]
That has been my policy since before I was baptised over 45 years ago. I feel sorry for those who seem scared to read other theological ideas.
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Lynden Williams said:
we can move the discussion to http://christiandiscourse.com/ . That is the reason it was set up.
Please move all doctrinal discussions to the website provided.
Thanks Lynden. My question in this thread was only a request for information. You have kindly given me that information.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Ralph Hale said:
The SDA's have their hands full right now. They are faced with another irony. (Some view it as hypocrisy) The denomination is based largely on the teachings of Ellen G. White. But somehow they view it heresy for modern women to be ordained.
That does seem extremely unfair.
~
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Paul C said:
And why would you want to reopen the old CULT can of worms.
I wouldn't have even thought of interpreting it as a "can of worms" ... I made the mistake of taking it in the technical sense of religious studies.[:S]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Lynden Williams said:
Paul, primary source is the best place to find information
Lynden, you shouldn't give me temptations like this when I'm very tired. I can't resist ... you're directing me to Scripture I assume? and perhaps a dose of Early Church Fathers? Okay, I know that's not what you mean but it does illustrate your earlier point that this discussion really belongs on christiandiscourse and we need to get use to having the forum to take such discussions there. It will probably take us a bit of time to get used to that possibility.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Hi, MJ;MJ. Smith said:I wouldn't have even thought of interpreting it as a "can of worms"
The title of the thread was carefully crafted to promote such responses. I bought into his ploy. Lynden is an ambassador on the Adventist products forum, and the Faithlife Adventist site. The turn of events in this thread was no accident.
However, Your point is taken, Ma'am, and I digress. Thank you for your attempts at peacemaking. [:)]Lynden Williams said:Ok. Confession time. Started this tread to speed up the process of getting this set from the Biblical Research Institure into production. Not too many new orders based on the bar. Lots of views based on the topic.
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The popular definition of heretic is anyone that has ideas different then my/your own.
The popular definition of cult is any church that has practices different from my/your own.
Have seen somewhere that there are some 40,000 protestant denominations. Of which 39,999 must be wrong. [[Yes, I have also seen the orthodox argument that their holding the Bible as the only true source of enlightenment is in error. [Lower case on orthodox deliberate.] ]]
What I sometimes have fun doing is examining the total thought process of a "belief" where there are two interpretations. Sometimes I can spot the first step where they deviate. Then, sometimes, by reviewing that step in detail I can decide which path is right for me. [[Other times I can not find the ""error"" and have to go on the total argument or pure belief.]]
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[^o)] HHHMMMmmm~~~ [^o)]Paul C said:
No Thanks! I will not buy any more twisted interpretation of Scripture. I devoted 3 months to this study. The 3rd Quarterly in 2006 was devoted to an attempt to justify the 1844 - Sanctuary - Investigative Judgement debacle. http://ssnet.org/qrtrly/eng/06c/ (The Quarterly is a daily study that spans 3 months... Hence "Quarterly") I suppose you could view it as the SDA's Lectionary. I studied daily. I read every entry. ... Followed every link. The more I dug, the more I saw that the doctrine is FALSE. There are great men...Still devoted to Adventism who maintain that the movement should give up and admit the error. They didn't just devote 3 months to the study. They devoted their lives trying to make the Adventist views line up with Scripture. (Or Vice Versa) They could not. I would suggest Logos add a little work titled "The "Sanctuary Doctrine"- Asset or Liability?" by Raymond Cottrell.Lynden Williams said:Did not look at the article in wikipedia.
See if this set has its foundation in scripture and if your views change about the Sanctuary doctrine. https://www.logos.com/product/37737/daniel-and-revelation-committee-series
Cottrell was a respected Theologian. He was a contributing editor of the Adventist Commentary. While working on the commentary, he found discrepancies. He devoted the next 20 plus years trying to rectify the "inconsistencies" in the doctrine. Shortly before his death he offered the heartfelt plea to the SDA's to abandon the erroneous doctrine. They apparently are too invested in the tradition to admit the error.
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[Y] YEAH! [Y] [^o)] What Sam Said [^o)]
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Paul C said:
I would suggest Logos add a little work titled "The "Sanctuary Doctrine"- Asset or Liability?" by Raymond Cottrell.
YES! But until they do a simple Google search will put it at your fingertips.
Edit; I took the quote form Sam's quote , which made it appear as if he said it. I apologize for the oversight. I have inserted the proper quote.
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I think Silent Sam was silent on the issue of Cottrell. Therefore he can't really be quoted (especially when the quote is from Paul).
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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I am always surprised to see a Logos forums MVP stir the pot, and bait people into theological discussion.
SDA is one bp I won't soon be buying.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Good catch Denise. Thanks. I corrected the error.Denise said:I think Silent Sam was silent on the issue of Cottrell. Therefore he can't really be quoted (especially when the quote is from Paul).
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[^o)] HHHMMMmmm~~~ [^o)]Denise said:I think Silent Sam was silent on the issue of Cottrell. Therefore he can't really be quoted (especially when the quote is from Paul).
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Gee, Silent Sam. I feel like after 5 years on the forum, I'm finally in the big leagues.
How did I do it?
The part about being silent?
Or the non-implied silence on Cottrell?
Or the part about being incorrectly quoted?
I know, I know .... I should just thank my lucky stars! (Since I don't have a Logos one.)
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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[^o)] HHHMMMmmm~~~ [^o)]
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Thanks for the link. I have started exploring that quarterly. I, Too, Find serious flaws in their "Interpretation" of Scripture.[:(]Paul C said:
No Thanks! I will not buy any more twisted interpretation of Scripture. I devoted 3 months to this study. The 3rd Quarterly in 2006 was devoted to an attempt to justify the 1844 - Sanctuary - Investigative Judgement debacle. http://ssnet.org/qrtrly/eng/06c/ (The Quarterly is a daily study that spans 3 months... Hence "Quarterly") I suppose you could view it as the SDA's Lectionary. I studied daily. I read every entry. ... Followed every link. The more I dug, the more I saw that the doctrine is FALSE. There are great men...Still devoted to Adventism who maintain that the movement should give up and admit the error. They didn't just devote 3 months to the study. They devoted their lives trying to make the Adventist views line up with Scripture. (Or Vice Versa) They could not. I would suggest Logos add a little work titled "The "Sanctuary Doctrine"- Asset or Liability?" by Raymond Cottrell.Lynden Williams said:Did not look at the article in wikipedia.
See if this set has its foundation in scripture and if your views change about the Sanctuary doctrine. https://www.logos.com/product/37737/daniel-and-revelation-committee-series
Cottrell was a respected Theologian. He was a contributing editor of the Adventist Commentary. While working on the commentary, he found discrepancies. He devoted the next 20 plus years trying to rectify the "inconsistencies" in the doctrine. Shortly before his death he offered the heartfelt plea to the SDA's to abandon the erroneous doctrine. They apparently are too invested in the tradition to admit the error.
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You know what they say about people in glass houses throwing stones, right?
They say you should do it on ChristianDiscourse.com...
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Glass Houses? Do You refer to chastising a brother for posting a clear concise comment in the same thread you recently posted rambling, lengthy paragraphs of your "insight" on the same subject? >>>>David Paul said:You know what they say about people in glass houses throwing stones, right?
David Paul said:There is a Seventh Day Baptist church a few miles east of Huntsville, AL...a dozen folks would find the building uncomfortably cramped.
My personal feeling is that if SDAs cut themselves free of a couple of doctrinal anchors, they would be in a much healthier position on many fronts. But that wouldn't be Adventism any longer. Like most denominations, in which the "founder" typically saw a particular doctrinal flub in the church-at-large and moved to correct that error (often this single move was the right call), the problems begin in the "what comes next" phase. In most cases, that one little, limited piece of the puzzle is the entire bit of Scriptural insight that was allotted to the founder, and all the rest of the doctrinal baggage that makes up the difference is no better and at times is often worse than what the "other" denominations are doing. This is the history of Christianity in a nutshell, and it ought to alarm everyone involved. But it doesn't, and the reason is that...that's ALL there is. There's broken here, and there's broken there--everywhere you look is broken--and no one gets too alarmed because if everything everywhere is broken, then that must be okay, right? It's just people being broken sinners is all...
The arc of prophesy doesn't dispute this state of affairs--in fact, it describes it perfectly! Unfortunately, it also judges it unmercifully. No group, regardless of doctrine, is safe. The problem is much more systemic than denominational fracturing--or ecumenism, for that matter--can ever hope to overcome.
David Paul said:Well, I'm pretty sure there are at least one or two resources in Logos that level that charge at SDAs...I'm pretty sure it's something they've just become accustomed to hearing. Sorta similar to what the Catholic Church often hears from Protestant circles. It's pretty ironic, but there are more than just a few similarities between the two groups. As a Sabbatarian myself, I've noticed that Sunday groups tend to look askance at Sabbath observance, and some have no trouble tossing the cult label based on that practice alone. I'm pretty much an anti-denominationalist, so in my view SDAs are still in the same boat with all the other named churches out there, except they keep Shabbat. Considering the four descriptors above, becoming less of a cult or sect and more Orthodox and Evangelical doesn't constitute an improvement in my view.
Still, I find that some SDA prophecy has more going for it than a lot of traditional Sunday prophecy, mainly because Sunday observance per se eviscerates basic prophetic concepts. The Sabbath is one of the fundamental conceptual building blocks of the entire panorama of prophecy, which is just one of many reasons why it must be "remembered".
<<<< Are those the silicon abodes of which you write? [:)]
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I think David deserves some ramblingness, if indeed we're talking Moontown. Paintrock, no.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I don't think Paintrock has any vortex's (nor vortices). Is Alabama even capable of New Age?
Now, Moonrock. That's different.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Without knowing what Moontown or Paintrock are, I will still be the first to support his right to ramble. It only becomes an issue when he is deluded into thinking that his superior intellect provides him preferential treatment. It appears that he believes his ramblings should be venerated , But the Goyim should bow and humbly/silently remove themselves from HIS rambling territory.Denise said:I think David deserves some ramblingness, if indeed we're talking Moontown. Paintrock, no.
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Oh, comon, Schezic...it wasn't an eviction notice, it was an invitation. I just think that since Bob was good enough to create a sandbox for us to play in, we should confine our serious stone throwing there. Come play.
Btw, the 7DB is in Paint Rock. There's also a COG7 in Mentone. Great little cafe on the mountain there--great sandwiches...huge fireplace.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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Do I recall correctly? Are you transplanted in that area? I was born and bred on North Sand Mountain. My grandfather had acquired a sizeable plot of land on Mentone at the end of his days ... Late 60's. I have family who sell at the farmers market there every weekend. Seventh day observance seems to be very prevalent in that area. ... Including SDAsDavid Paul said:Btw, the 7DB is in Paint Rock. There's also a COG7 in Mentone. Great little cafe on the mountain there--great sandwiches...huge fireplace.
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Yes, I'm originally from New Orleans, but I've been living in Alabama since 1996. The Seventh Day Baptists probably consist of no more than one or two families. I'm serious about their building not being much bigger than a broom closet. The Church of God--Seventh Day is about the size of a normal small town church. It could probably hold a bit over a hundred if they didn't mind rubbing elbows. I went there once with a friend years ago. There are one or two other small Sabbath-keeping groups that meet in town, and of course, as you mention, there is Oakwood College, which is a historically black Seventh Day Adventist college. Due to its presence, there are a sizable number of SDA congregations in the area. There are also a couple or three Messianic congregations as well...by that I mean Messianic Christian, not Messianic Jewish.
ASUS ProArt x570s Creator, AMD R9 5950x, HyperX 64gb 3600 RAM, ASUS Strix RTX 2080 ti
"The Unbelievable Work...believe it or not." Little children...Biblical prophecy is not Christianity's friend.
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