Greek Issue: Mark 15:42

David Paul

The first part of Mk. 15:42 begins with the phrase "When evening had already come" (NASB). [The ESV leaves out the "already" or "now" part of the phrase.] Here's my issue with this translation, which motivates my following question. That translation might be grammatically possible, but it is conceptually improbable. The reason is simple logistics. If "evening " is to be properly interpreted as Hebrew "even" (which lasts about 25-30 min) then it seems practically impossible to accomplish getting from audience with Pilate to Yeishuu`a in the ground and the stone rolled into place BEFORE two stars are visible (which is an absolutely non-negotiable necessity).

So my question is, can this Greek phrase support the translation "And evening having now come"? This understanding, this phrasing, allows that the even (evening) was "at the door" but had not yet commenced. This gives much more cushion--and this time cushion, I repeat, is an absolute requirement...non-negotiable.

So, will that fly?

Danny Parker

I don't believe that the answer is exactly straight forward. It is an interpretation issue (what did Mark mean by the expression) rather than a Greek syntax language issue (not a technical issue). ESV interprets. NASB translates literally what the Greek has. Many of the Greek-focused commentaries seem to recognize the wording/syntax problem vs. the events that had to take place during this time. They offer various solutions.

From UBS Handbook on Mark

Exegesis ēdē opsias genomenēs. evening having already arrived,’ when evening had now come’: ordinarily the phrase opsias genomenēs in Mark (cf. the references in 4:35) would indicate sunset or after, especially with the addition of ēdē (cf. 6:35, 11:11) already,’ by now.’ Here, however, it seems that all that Joseph of Arimathea did took place between the ninth hour (3.00 P.M.), when Jesus died, and sunset, which would mark the beginning of the sabbath (cf. Lagrange). Jeremias (Eucharistic Words, 3) points out that Mark has a habit of using a second time reference precisely to define the first one, and refers to 1:32, 1:35, 4:35, 13:24, 14:12, 14:30, 16:2 here, therefore, evening is approaching, but it is still the day of Preparation, before sabbath begins at 6.00 P.M.

NIGTC offers that the expression can mean different things: For the wide range of times to which ὀψίας γενομένης may apply, see on 6:47; 14:17.

WORD proposes Mark just uses confusing syntax. "And when evening had already come, since it was [the day of] Preparation, that is, [the day] before the Sabbath." Mark’s syntax is once again convoluted. What he means to say is that the day’s end is fast approaching. Jesus

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/607945#Comment_607945

Thanks for your response. That's pretty much what I needed to know. I think my translation is acceptable and allows for the needed period of time to accomplish what was required to be done. Joseph no doubt had servants doing most of the heavy lifting. I think using "now" rather than "already" (both are accepted options) is preferable in this case. I think the idea is akin to what I suggested in the OP...the evening, or even, was "at the door" (i.e. was approaching).

Also possible (though not certain) is that the Greek word has broader application than the Hebrew equivalent. Either way, there seems to be plenty of wiggle room in this phrase so that what needed to be done could get done. I just want to be able to give a credible explanation should I need to explain this to others.

Danny Parker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/607954#Comment_607954

It's great that you seek to determine the truth and not just accept easy/preachable answers.

While as you indicated, it is important to know the overall boundaries of a word, the final determination will come down to context. While in this particular usage, one might assume one thing base on the common word definitions (evening had already come), but because of what we know from context (likely a 2 hour process needs to be accommodated), a less common alternate usage is necessary and allowable. This seeking of what could be allowable is where the more detailed language-oriented conservative resources become especially valuable. It's great to have the LOGOS resources to rely upon to validate or invalidate our suppositions.

Dean J

How long would it take--evening had clearly begun (the UBS is simply wrong here). 

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/608252#Comment_608252

Dean053 said:

How long would it take--evening had clearly begun (the UBS is simply wrong here). 

I wonder what your definition of "evening" is... [:^)]

Before getting into "how long", I think it helps to remember that Bible writers often do not display the same concern for sequential story-telling that we tend to appreciate today.

I think it could happen in about an hour or less if the people were moving in high gear, and they would have had no need for anyone to encourage them in that respect...a bit less than two hours if they were just doing it at normal speed, but with the high holy day approaching, I doubt anyone was working at that pace. The key issue time-wise would have been related to getting the body off the cross. It says in Mark and Luke that Joseph took the body down--which is pretty much the equivalent of saying "Solomon built the temple". Solomon built the temple, alright...without so much as laying a hand on a hammer. Joseph likewise would have had servants doing most is not all of the actual work. The grave was nearby according to John, so it wouldn't have taken quite as long as many might suspect. Wrapping the body with Nicodemus's hundred pounds of aloes would probably have taken the most time. But it would have been absolutely impossible to have done all this is the narrow window of even. I seriously doubt anyone would have even bothered to try. They had to start before even began.

This is one of the reasons why I think it is full out ridiculous to insist it was already even (evening) when Joseph asked for and received the body. In Mk. 15:46 it says Joseph, after getting the permission from Pilate, bought a linen cloth to wrap Yeishuu`a's body in. Baloney. There wouldn't have been anyone to buy a cloth from during even before a high holy day. 

Dean J

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/608268#Comment_608268

Well Mark was ridiculous then, because, like it or not, evening had begun! You're going to have to find some other way of solving this--if you care about the plain meaning of words. My definition of evening is after the sun begins to set--not mid afternoon as in the UBS!

That all probably took at least two hours though, I would think. At least. So it's going to be a few hours after sundown that Jesus was buried--or it would seem so, according to this account. 

Joseph gets there as it the sun begins to set (inchoative aorist). Still got twenty minutes perhaps to buy a cloak (assuming everyone closes down when the sun sets--but I don't know if this can be assumed--there is still debate as to whether all Jews at the time began their day with sunset or sunrise).

So not sure there is a problem to be solved here.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/608269#Comment_608269

YIKES!!! That's twice in one day...first there's "Yeishuu`a isn't YHWH", and now there's "the evening started in the morning". I guess that saves time and money when you're making the morning and evening sacrifices, eh?

It is more likely that YHWH is the love child of Yeti and Marie Antoinette. That is so far beyond absurd that it practically renders "absurd" meaningless. Uuughhh!! Moving right along...

Actually, even more absurd than the forgoing attempt to float the "start with light and end with darkness" concept, is the idea that Joseph waited over 3 hours for the sun to set before asking for permission to bury the body...and then he and all of those with him proceeded to engage in an hours long foray lasting well into darkness. Why so utterly ridiculous?? Because you are saying all of these devout Jews completely ignored the very Sabbath, the very high holy day whose sanctity was the motivation for getting the body off the cross and in the ground to begin with...and these Jews were not just engaging in WORK on the holy day (Lev. 23:6, 7), but you have them engaging in THE BURYING OF A DEAD BODY!!!!

Not only are you suggesting that these men violated the Sabbath, but that they invited the curse of YHWH upon the whole nation literally moments before engaging in the most sacred night of the year. Deut. 21:22, 23  Utterly preposterous.

All that personal and national calamity because of an "inchoative aorist"?? Impossible.

I take it back...that's THREE TIMES in one day!  [8-)]

[^o)]