Hebrew Audio Pronunciation: This is how the Tetragrammaton is pronounced?

http://www.screencast.com/t/ITUhaWXIuiTA

Either it shouldn't be pronounced at all (in deference to Jewish tradition), or it should be pronounced somehow that's pronounceable (Yahweh?). It doesn't seem to me that reading the letters out is the right solution, but maybe that's the best that can be done without offending anyone.

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MJ. Smith

Quotes to make clear this is not a Jewish tradition problem only, before I make my suggestion.

From an Orthodox forum:

"The sound of the word seems to phonetically mimic the action of inhaling and exhaling. When we take a very deep breath and exhale, it seems to sound like: yaaaw- heeee (YAHWEH). I was taught this by a very pious and wise elderly Orthodox christian. This would mean we recite His name everytime we breath. It also gives an additional understanding of the psalm which says' 'let everything that have breath praise the Lord' (psalm 150.6)"

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For various reasons, the divine name eventually became too sacred to be pronounced in Second Temple Judaism. I have not kept upon the scholarship on this question over the past twenty years, and the books I owned that addressed this question have been donated to seminary libraries; but I believe I am on safe grounds to state that by the time of Jesus the divine name had been silenced in public discourse, always replaced by the circumlocution Adonai. That this happened is not unimportant or irrelevant. I suggest that it was a necessary economic preparation for the Incarnation in Jesus Christ. God silences the divine name to prepare Israel for the embodiment of his name: "Before Abraham was, I AM." With the exaltation of Christ as Lord, YHWH is in a very real sense replaced by the name Jesus:

Quote

Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

We do not speak the ineffable name given to Israel because this ineffable name has now become nameable in a new way in Jesus Christ and functionally replaced by the Trinitarian naming, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, into which we are baptized. Hence I believe that we should continue the longstanding tradition of speaking "Lord" whenever we come across the Tetragrammaton. We do so not only out of respect to our Jewish brothers and sisters but also out of respect to the history of salvation.

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My personal preference would be a setting on what we wished to have Logos do when it hits the Tetragrammaton - pronounce it, spell it or replace it.

George Somsel

http://www.screencast.com/t/ITUhaWXIuiTA

Either it shouldn't be pronounced at all (in deference to Jewish tradition), or it should be pronounced somehow that's pronounceable (Yahweh?). It doesn't seem to me that reading the letters out is the right solution, but maybe that's the best that can be done without offending anyone.

You could say "הַשֶׁם" (hashem, "the name") as the Jews do without offense.

Unix

[Y] That's a great suggestion, MJ.! [:)]:

My personal preference would be a setting on what we wished to have Logos do when it hits the Tetragrammaton - pronounce it, spell it or replace it.

Rosie Perera

George's and MJ's suggestions sound viable. Just as long as it isn't pronounced "Jehovah". [:)]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ5YU_spBw0

Vincent Setterholm

I don't want to put words in Dr. Buth's mouth, but I think the issue had less to do with risking offence as it did the fact that we don't KNOW how to vocalize the Tetragrammaton. 'Yahweh' is one popular scholarly reconstruction, but there are no vowels for the kethiv in the text, just vowels that mark the perpetual qere of 'Adonai'. I don't think having no sound clip would be a good solution, since most people would just assume that the resource was incomplete. Clicking on YHWH and hearing 'Adonai' or 'haShem' would make sense to people who already know about this issue, but would seem like a bug to anyone who didn't. If Dr. Buth had wanted to record the reconstruction 'Yahweh', I'd have been fine with that, but I think what he recorded was fine as well. In scholarly literature, the Name is often written as YHWH, without any attempt at vocalization, and I think this is a workable approximation to Rosie's first suggestion of not pronouncing it at all.

Rosie Perera

I think this is a workable approximation to Rosie's first suggestion of not pronouncing it at all.

Makes sense. If the solution chosen were to not pronounce it at all, I would not have suggested leaving the audio blank, but rather reading a brief explanation "the name of God is not vocalized" or something like that. But I'm OK with what Dr. Buth chose to do.

Ergatees

MJ

Third attempt. iPad shut down on me?

I appreciated very much this interesting post and the reference to and explanation of Jn 8:58.
Thank you for the time you spend here.

Ergatees

George Somsel

I think this is a workable approximation to Rosie's first suggestion of not pronouncing it at all.

Makes sense. If the solution chosen were to not pronounce it at all, I would not have suggested leaving the audio blank, but rather reading a brief explanation "the name of God is not vocalized" or something like that. But I'm OK with what Dr. Buth chose to do.

BTW: What did Randall do?

Rosie Perera

I think this is a workable approximation to Rosie's first suggestion of not pronouncing it at all.

Makes sense. If the solution chosen were to not pronounce it at all, I would not have suggested leaving the audio blank, but rather reading a brief explanation "the name of God is not vocalized" or something like that. But I'm OK with what Dr. Buth chose to do.

BTW: What did Randall do?

If you listen to the video I posted a link to in my first post, you'll have the answer to that question. I also mentioned it in the text of that post.

David Paul

Either it shouldn't be pronounced at all (in deference to Jewish tradition)

To not pronounce it is to defy YHWH.

it should be pronounced somehow that's pronounceable (Yahweh?)

It really irks me when people pronounce the Name as Yahweh but turn around and pronounce the waaw (w) as a vav (v) everywhere else. Hello, a little internal consistency, please.

It doesn't seem to me that reading the letters out is the right solution, but maybe that's the best that can be done without offending anyone.

I actually know quite a few people who spell it out in conversation.

I am personally convinced that the way it should be pronounced (using my transliteration method) is Yahohwaah. Actually, I think the pronunciation depends on the context, and this pronunciation covers most contexts.

This issue is just one of numerous reasons I would have been happy if this thing had never shipped.

MJ. Smith

Since most people would just assume that the resource was incomplete. Clicking on YHWH and hearing 'Adonai' or 'haShem' would make sense to people who already know about this issue, but would seem like a bug to anyone who didn't.

Please reassure me that you are underestimating the knowledge of your users ... this was basic Sunday School in the Church of Christ in which I grew up ... and the percentage of Christians who minimize the use of the name is significant.

Rosie Perera

I am personally convinced that the way it should be pronounced (using my transliteration method) is Yahohwaah.

I was wondering how long it would take for you to put yourself forward as our own local expert on the subject. [;)] Logos should have consulted with you first before producing this. [:P] (Or not producing it, as you would have preferred.)

DAL

And all this issue thanks to the Jews of old who disrespected God and rebelled against Him in every way possible, yet they made a big deal out of not wanting to pronounce His name because they thought it was too sacred...irony of ironies!!!

My strong conviction is that if we love God, fear Him and obey Him then it's totally fine to pronounce His "name." After all, we call Jesus by His name and nobody thinks is too sacred to take away the vowels so nobody can really know how to pronounce it. Imagine if somebody adopted the same senseless idea the Jews of old had and over the centuries we only had JSS was the Son of God and then try to reconstruct the name JSS with JUSUS or JOJOS or something. I think that's more offensive and disrespectful. Anyway, let's just leave it at that, we wouldn't want any Jews "to get offended," though it should be clear is not their fault, is the Jews of old's fault that we are even talking about this and having issues with this... [8-)] Thanks again to them for this precious issue on the Hebrew Pronunciation tool!

DAL

MJ. Smith

the same senseless idea

DAL you know better than to be

offensive and disrespectful

to quote yourself. This sort of nonsense belongs on Christian Discourse (or preferably nowhere).

After all, we call Jesus by His name and nobody thinks is too sacred to take away the vowels so nobody can really know how to pronounce it.

If you know anything about church history you know this is not analogous. Consider the iconclastic debate and the distinction between between the incarnate and the non-incarnate made then.

George Somsel

Believe me that the Jews would not be offended, but they wouldn't do it themselves.

David Thomas

Just as long as it isn't pronounced "Jehovah".

My Hebrew professor said "something churns inside him whenever a congregation sings http://youtu.be/PUIa674GGCo because it is true 'there is no God like Jehovah' because Jehovah was never a name spoken by Hebrew speakers." (it is an editorial combination of the tetragrammaton and the vowels from Adonai)

Bohuslav Wojnar

Since most people would just assume that the resource was incomplete. Clicking on YHWH and hearing 'Adonai' or 'haShem' would make sense to people who already know about this issue, but would seem like a bug to anyone who didn't.

Please reassure me that you are underestimating the knowledge of your users ... this was basic Sunday School in the Church of Christ in which I grew up ... and the percentage of Christians who minimize the use of the name is significant.

I think HaShem would be the best solution since it is clear substitute for YHWH (and as far as I know) it is not a biblical word - what would not work with Adonai - since it would confuse with Adonai actually used in some places of the Bible. Just my 2 cents.

George Somsel

Just as long as it isn't pronounced "Jehovah".

My Hebrew professor said "something churns inside him whenever a congregation sings http://youtu.be/PUIa674GGCo because it is true 'there is no God like Jehovah' because Jehovah was never a name spoken by Hebrew speakers." (it is an editorial combination of the tetragrammaton and the vowels from Adonai)

I had never heard that one before. Hopefully I won't hear it again.

Rosie Perera

My Hebrew professor said "something churns inside him whenever a congregation sings http://youtu.be/PUIa674GGCo

Eww, that's the worst rendition of that song I've ever seen/heard! A woman who looks like a "church lady" in a skirt suit and high heels singing with a rock band? That just looks weird, and then the way she moves around in that getup, poking her fingers at the air, etc. She just looks so wrong for the part, and I don't like her singing particularly either.

I first heard "Days of Elijah" on the CD Revival in Belfast by Robin Mark (the song is by him), and that will always been the version I prefer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b8Tpnytkxaw. Can't say the theology is great, but I love the song.

fgh

Clicking on YHWH and hearing 'Adonai' or 'haShem' would make sense to people who already know about this issue, but would seem like a bug to anyone who didn't.

Please reassure me that you are underestimating the knowledge of your users ... this was basic Sunday School in the Church of Christ in which I grew up

Perhaps in the US where you have a significant Jewish minority, but certainly not here. I learnt about the replacement with Lord early on, and Adonai somewhat later, but I can't remember ever hearing about HaShem until a few years ago.

I think HaShem would be the best solution since it is clear substitute for YHWH

It's supposed to be Biblical Hebrew pronunciation. I've never heard that HaShem was used in that way in Biblical times. In fact, I'm under the impression that it isn't normally used for Bible or liturgical readings today either, but for normal conversations.

I haven't heard it, but it sounds to me like the best option was used.

the Jews of old who disrespected God and rebelled against Him in every way possible

Just like the rest of us then.

they thought it was too sacred

So do most Christians, including the authors of the New Testament.

it's totally fine to pronounce His "name."

You can't really pronounce it, since we don't know for sure what the vowels are. You can only mispronounce it.

we call Jesus by His name and nobody thinks is too sacred to take away the vowels

Nobody took away the vowels from the Tetragrammaton. Hebrew didn't have vowels in those days. Greek does. Though you may want to look up http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomina_sacra.

Sleiman

It's what Arabic speaking Christians have been calling God since long before there were any Muslims.

Right on. Amazing how people simply don't consider that as a fact. Mohammad's father's name was Abdullah - an Arabic conjunction of two words, Abed and Allah meaning the worshiper of God, a Christian name in origin.