Does this sound like how you'd like an average member of your congregation to use Logos?
Please don't be turned off by terminology - think function:
- Lectionary for reading scripture in preparation for worship (standard lectionary) or Bible lessons (Standard Publishing's daily readings for ISSL) or certain fixed personal Bible reading programs
- Not available in Logos - hymn of the day as devotional supplement to lectionary
- Not available in Logos - Liturgy of the Hours / Morning-Evening Prayer / other prayer books
- Reading cycle - fixed reading plans for Book of Concord, The Talmud, The Catechism of the Catholic Church, Lenten reading of John Climacus ...
- Reading plan - Bible or other - defined by individual, church program, et. al.
- Devotionals - not just calendar but fixed number of days (30 days with ...) or seasonal by liturgical calendar (Advent, Lent)
- Bible study program - at church, small group or online
- Calendar of saints - denominational
- Personal spiritual reading and bible study
I'm trying to wrap my head around the use of Logos for the non-professional and would appreciate your feedback.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
- Not available in Logos - hymn of the day as devotional supplement to lectionary
- Reading plan - Bible or other - defined by individual, church program, et. al.
- Personal spiritual reading and bible study
I'm trying to wrap my head around the use of Logos for the non-professional and would appreciate your feedback.
((Editing changed item numbers - please refer to original post))
Yes, Getting the hymn book into Logos format would help. With sheet music please not just the words. Need different standard hymn book for major denominations,
Yes, reading plans for book sets. Have added some to our church bulletin. Have plans to assist members with personalized reading plans - but Logos makes it easy.
Problem with using Logos for most lay members is cost. A denominational base package is not in the budget of most members. A $50 / $100 set of the basic books required for a denomination might help. A Bible, the denominational equivalent to the CCC [a book that defines all or most of the teachings of a denomination with the needed study material to back them up] and a denominational recognized one volume commentary for starters.
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The average member at my parish would probably not use such a breadth of resources on a daily basis. Thinking out loud from my faith perspective I would group them into -
Most used:
1. Lectionary for reading .....
8. Calendar of Saints ....
6. Devotionals ....
Next Used:
Everything else ....
Also, I think the average member of my parish would really enjoy and use some sort of basic commentary or reflection that would go along with the Lectionary Readings for each day. I believe Logos has many of those depending on the faith tradition.
.... my two cents ...
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I think that right now I am in a congregation which has more people using Logos than any I have been in - and that isn't saying much. I have it. My Pastor has it. The School Principal has a free Logos/Faithlife account. There is talk about getting the the schoolteachers into it, and the senior pastor is trying to get the associate/new mission plant pastor into it.
More than a few have been amazed at what I have at my fingertips in Bible Studies using a slow laptop... And yet when they look at the packages, they get sticker shock. So the primary road-block is cost. The Free Logos/Faithlife accounts are a start at facing this. I suppose having rental resources is another. But there are few more things I would love to see:
1) Current Logos licenses are per user. I wish that there were a way to have at least SOME licenses available for the whole congregation - or at least a site (like a Library) that is available to the congregation. Of course, this would have to be negotiated with publishers...
2) Itunes has sold a lot of recordings by having a simple and reasonable price. I wish that current devotional books and catechisms were available for a similar price... Of course, there would need to be enough users for this.
As a Lutheran, I cringe when I see the worship materials available in Logos. Our current stuff is not there. Yes, some significant historical materials are, but not what we actually use. Of course, it is a LOT easier to mention this than to actually negotiate rights for the rites. [;)] If the big boys (Augsburg-Fortress and Concordia) will not play, how about the smaller ones e.g. Creative Communications for the Parish?
As you mention, reading plans are not easy to set up to match up with many old plans out there in use...
The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann
L8 Anglican, Lutheran and Orthodox Silver, Reformed Starter, Academic Essentials
L7 Lutheran Gold, Anglican Bronze
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[quote]
- Reading plan - Bible or other - defined by individual, church program, et. al.
- Devotionals - not just calendar but fixed number of days (30 days with ...) or seasonal by liturgical calendar (Advent, Lent)
- Bible study program - at church, small group or online
- Calendar of saints - denominational
- Personal spiritual reading and bible study
Copying and pasting changed the numbers. but this is how I see someone using it. Having a reading plan through the Bible or a daily devotional that they read through. A weekly bible study - tied to the midweek service, sunday school, and/or a homegroup. Finally doing research on their own on subjects they find interesting, or tangentially related to one of the above.
I don't see many church members using Logos though. I know of two families (not at my church) where one individual uses logos that are not actively involved in ministry in some fashion.
L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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I'm headed to Bellingham on Wednesday for a tour ... and for a discussion of a Logos demonstration at my church with the intention of trying an online Bible Study Group. As I figure it, a person could participate for as little as $15 using the chosen study guide and group notes. They could start reaping the benefits of Verbum at < $50 with the study guide, Bible and CCC. Verbum Basic is $275. I believe that Logos gives a discount at their demonstrations.
While the revenue is not large, there should be a steady purchase stream as we move on to new studies and as people want more live links as they learn to use Verbum. And by making it parish based, I can provide PDF's with the essentials one needs to start and slowly teach additional Logos features as a use for them arises.
What I want to do as I work through the glitches is make sure that I am representing a broad range of denominations so that what we do can be transferred to other churches. The biggest hurdle for many churches is the need for a resource to attach Community Notes to when PB's cannot be shared in a way to facilitate this. The next biggest is a way to integrate tapes and videos of a study program into the Logos/Verbum work flow. And, of course, there is still a chance that the parish staff will decide that it's still not quite ready for prime time.
And, yes, I will be trying to move an ELCA congregation along the same path via my daughter-in-law.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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i would settle for a Windows 8.1 Tablet (Book - Chapter - Verse) version that permits me to get to what i need in a hurry in a group setting (at the church) Bible study please.
Reading what you wrote above I would wonder about licensing for all those folk.
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JoshInRI said:
i would settle for a Windows 8.1 Tablet (Book - Chapter - Verse) version that permits me to get to what i need in a hurry in a group setting (at the church) Bible study please.
I'll keep that in mind although my initial focus is on those who are unable/unlikely to make it to church groups on a frequent basis - distance, work or class schedules, night driving, child care ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ
first let me say God speed to you, an may you travel be blessed
next you spoke of traveling to Bellingham on Wednesday but there is no mention of others accompanying you. then there is the words for as little as 15 dollars. is this for every usage or is this a month. for some the words for as little as mention in the sentence with money is a turn off.
Please do not fine me offensive.
functionality is good but it is even better when one see that a program as technical as logos is also great to see and mine the great riches of God word, with precise and yet with ease ability, while one joyfully with excitement, dig, dig and dig learning the word of God, and seeing there life change.. the tapes and video are good and it sound like the word of Paul to Timothy are need here,( Exhort with all longsuffering), this will take your time. not to much to fast, are you talking a year
Armwood
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Armwood, the mention of "as little as $15" was in response to David Ames' comments on cost and need for a starting point reason for a church to sponsor - a common topic on the forums.
I am setting up a dummy Faithlife Group to test things out and will open it to other people after I have buyins from Logos and the relevant parish staff
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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We only have a small congregation and I am the only one with Logos.
Most of what you mention above is what I use Logos for when it comes to my "devotional" needs (as opposed to ongoing study, sermon prep, counselling research etc that I use it for as a Lutheran Pastor).
For 2, I am currently using https://vyrso.com/product/13603/near-to-the-heart-of-god-meditations-on-366-best-loved-hymns and a Catholic Devotional (since it fits in nicely calendar-wise) https://www.logos.com/product/26676/the-daughters-of-st-paul-reflections-on-the-daily-readings-collection
I would really like the Reading Plan to be much improved for Logos 6 so as to enable some of the above to be easier to construct. Also to have "pre-designed" reading plans for many of the above would be great.
Pastor Glenn Crouch
St Paul's Lutheran Church
Kalgoorlie-Boulder, Western Australia0 -
Glenn Crouch said:
I would really like the Reading Plan to be much improved
While I don't know the details or the time frame, I know this concern is one that Logos has heard and promised to address in my early contacts with them on parish-based study.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
I'm trying to wrap my head around the use of Logos for the non-professional and would appreciate your feedback.
You probably know this already, but very little of this would be suitable for the average member of congregations I'm familiar with (conservative evangelical).
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Mark Barnes said:
but very little of this would be suitable for the average member of congregations I'm familiar with
Interesting since much transports nicely into the Campbellite tradition
- Lectionary for Bible lessons: Standard Publishing's daily readings for ISSL with some pastors loosely following the RCL for at least 20 years as per 2 NW Campbellite Bible Colleges; other curriculum less obviously fits as the children outgrow it ... it is cyclic only for the teacher.
- Not available in Logos - hymn of the day embedded in devotionals
- Not available in Logos - fixed hour prayer embedded in devotionals
- Reading cycle - not present
- Reading plan - Bible or other - defined by individual, church program, et. al.
- Devotionals - not just calendar but fixed number of days (30 days with ...)
- Bible study program - at church, small group or online
- Calendar of saints - not present
- Personal spiritual reading and bible study
Of course the split would be somewhat different for different Church of Christ publishers ... I would have expected you to have some reading cycle built around the Westminster documents for which the Campbellites have no equivalent.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
I would have expected you to have some reading cycle built around the Westminster documents for which the Campbellites have no equivalent.
As we've discussed before, the churches I'm most familiar emphasise the freedom of local congregations in applying biblical principles of worship (so although the principles might be written down — in a Confession, perhaps — the implementation is not). That removes lectionaries, prayer books and church calendars from the equation. Consequently it would also be rare for churches to give so much guidance for individual devotions. There may be a reading group or book club, or perhaps even a recommended Bible reading scheme. But it would tend not to be too prescriptive.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Aargh the server disconnected and ate my response.
Mark Barnes said:emphasise the freedom of local congregations in applying biblical principles of worship
This is fundamental the the Restoration Movement as well.
Mark Barnes said:That removes lectionaries, prayer books and church calendars from the equation.
Not quite - most printed Bible study programs but especially the ISSL (of the Standard Publishing/David C. Cook in Logos) are lectionaries in structure. Prayer books are renamed things like 365 Devotions 2014 or Celebrating Life's Journey or Embracing Faith but serve the same perhaps and have a similar basis. True liturgical calendars are omitted.
Mark Barnes said:so much guidance
Mark Barnes said:it would tend not to be too prescriptive.
You're assuming a level of "prescriptive" I did not mean to imply. The most I would have intended to imply is that engendered by the selection of trusted publishing houses. Beyond that my list is basically in most to least prescriptive or the parallel most to least communal. And most prescriptive ranges from "choose among these" or "do this if you don't have a better idea" to "you will do precisely this".
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Mark Barnes said:MJ. Smith said:
I would have expected you to have some reading cycle built around the Westminster documents for which the Campbellites have no equivalent.
As we've discussed before, the churches I'm most familiar emphasise the freedom of local congregations in applying biblical principles of worship (so although the principles might be written down — in a Confession, perhaps — the implementation is not). That removes lectionaries, prayer books and church calendars from the equation. Consequently it would also be rare for churches to give so much guidance for individual devotions. There may be a reading group or book club, or perhaps even a recommended Bible reading scheme. But it would tend not to be too prescriptive.
Coming from a very low church evangelical tradition I was contemplating what (if any) of MJ's list would apply to my local congregation. It was surprisingly much.
- Lectionary for reading scripture in preparation for worship (standard lectionary) or Bible lessons (Standard Publishing's daily readings for ISSL) or certain fixed personal Bible reading programs
- The Losungen / Daily Texts / Watchwords are still a bestseller in evangelical churches, many people read them daily (plus devotionals that relate to these daily texts). [Note: This is not considered an infringement of local congregation's freedom, since it's a part of private piety (with a strong tradition in the pietist part of protestant christiantity). While some years ago in my congregration the daily or weekly text was used in Sunday service, this has nearly disappeared - it may live on in more traditional congregations. But I thought here we are not talking about the pulpit, but the pew].
- Of course, gone are the days of my grandparents where in every home people would read these devotionals daily from a calendar leaf at supper - but young people could do this on their phone while commuting to school or work.
- Not available in Logos - hymn of the day as devotional supplement to lectionary
- Only the older members of my congregation would even take notice of the hymn given along the Losungen, I think. But then, what my family currently uses is a lectionary-type daily devotional based on modern worsip songs. And hymns of the day would be helpful - especially for the older generation who weren't taught theology but were taught reformation age and revival age hymns by heart, with deep content.
- Not available in Logos - Liturgy of the Hours / Morning-Evening Prayer / other prayer books
- This is something that is alien to the low-church evangelical tradition, but is somewhat rediscovered. There is strength in prayers others formulated (Psalm 23?!) which can help especially when we run out of own words - such as when visiting or in times of affliction. I personally used Bonhoeffers prayers from Tegel prison in a difficult phase of my life.
- Reading cycle - fixed reading plans for Book of Concord, The Talmud, The Catechism of the Catholic Church, Lenten reading of John Climacus ...
- Not applicable - after all, for evangelicals there's no book but the bible!
(I just wonder about the book count in my Logos library or my family's paper library...) - Reading plan - Bible or other - defined by individual, church program, et. al.
- Many in my congregation would (try to) follow the Reading Plan by the Ecumenical Workgroup for Bible-Reading (ÖAB) which is given in the Losungen but also in separate daily devotionals with commentary (available from various publishers and theological perspectives) - I may issue a PB for that some day, since it's too complex for the auto-create plan in Logos. Again, this is not prescribed at all by the congregation, but it has a tradition in personal piety.
- Devotionals - not just calendar but fixed number of days (30 days with ...) or seasonal by liturgical calendar (Advent, Lent)
- Some people will read calendar devotionals or various advent/lent devotionals. Sometimes small groups or even the congregation may undertake a 30 days / 40 days effort.
- Bible study program - at church, small group or online
- If I'm not mistaken, the REVEAL studies show that personal bible study is the catalyst for spiritual growth. I wouldn't expect congregants to delve deeply into commentaries (some might), but Logos is very well suited to facilitate bible study with the FSB and many other study bibles and bible study resources with questions etc. This would not relate to the whole congregation, but we encourage members to not only visit church on Sundays but become part of a small group - typically these groups decide amongst themselves what to study (and to which level of depth). Lay leaders will prepare for these groups and are free to use any material they find helpful.
- Calendar of saints - denominational
- Not applicable
- Personal spiritual reading and bible study
- See above: many of these things happen in the context of personal spiritual reading and bible study.
Have joy in the Lord!
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Perhaps it would be more helpful to illustrate how I'd like the average member of my congregation to use Logos if we were to study together (which is the point behind your question, I think). There are certainly parallels, but differences too:
- I create a Bible Reading plan.
- I'd recommend one commentary (probably the New Bible Commentary [one-volume], Welwyn [expository] or BST [intermediate]). If this was a weekly study, rather than a daily devotional, then I'd recommend all three.
- I'd ask about that passage, which would help people to reflect on it meaningfully (two-three questions for a daily devotional, at least double that for a weekly study). Usually there'd be questions about basic exegesis, about principles, and about personal application.
If people were going to study on their own, I'd recommend either a daily devotional (such as Spurgeon's Morning and Evening), or a more guided format like Alan Stibb's excellent Search the Scriptures.
This is my personal Faithlife account. On 1 March 2022, I started working for Faithlife, and have a new 'official' user account. Posts on this account shouldn't be taken as official Faithlife views!
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Thanks Mark and NB .... both answers were very helpful.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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