Logos only lets your transfer book Licenses once???
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Super.Tramp said:William Gabriel said:
they are willing to listen and dialog through any criticism.
We are waiting.
BTW: Logos is reluctant to delete any thread other than SPAM. It takes highly offensive comments and a lot of begging to get one deleted. But it does happen. (maligning Mexican Catholics is a start towards deletion)
Yeah, I suppose they have deleted other threads on the grounds of theological fights or insults, but I don't think I've ever seen it happen to quiet dissent. I think they know they'd have to shut down the whole forum if they started down that road.
It will be interesting to see if anything changes as a result of this thread. I didn't claim that they always did something about the criticism, but they do absorb it rather than try to quash any rebellions. And the CEO even gets on here to talk to us. He may not always say things we agree with or like, but doing that is the opposite attitude to deleting discussions they don't like about Logos.
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Its just a joke - and largely aimed at Logos. They first confused Denise as a catholic, then began considering her a Mexican as I understand it.Super.Tramp said:William Gabriel said:they are willing to listen and dialog through any criticism.
We are waiting.
BTW: Logos is reluctant to delete any thread other than SPAM. It takes highly offensive comments and a lot of begging to get one deleted. But it does happen. (maligning Mexican Catholics is a start towards deletion)
They changed MJ's name to halvar. Its just moderately entertaining marketing missteps that I'm commenting on.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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I am told that If we clarify what we say with an emoticon, or 2, The post is less likely to be deleted.Super.Tramp said:(maligning Mexican Catholics is a start towards deletion)
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[^o)] HHHMMMmmm~~~ [^o)]
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A more serious question is Silent Sam's EULA agreement. I'm not really clear on whether transfer rights accompany the governed use clauses, especially for the well known (and highly regarded) 'Four Threes'. Many Logosians are actually unaware that even the emoticons use the 'Threes' as a silent but powerful statement.
But more seriously, I hope anyone passing through this thread knows my issues with 'Catholics' and folks south of our border are said in jest relative to Logos' marketing efforts. My favorite church remains the Catholic church on the native american reservation southwest of Tucson. The ladies carefully place their candles inside the old church, while their hubbies are outside chatting, watching the early morning smoke from the cook fires lazily rise toward the heavens. Theology is a simple belief.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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I sure hope you don't add any more modifiers.[:O]Denise said:But more seriously, I hope anyone passing through this thread knows my issues with 'Catholics' and folks south of our border are said in jest relative to Logos' marketing efforts. My favorite church remains the Catholic church on the native american reservation southwest of Tucson.
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Do we really own e-books?
According to this article in gigaom, we just rent them:
"As I’ve tried to point out before, both publishers and distributors like Amazon have spent the past decade or so removing rights that we used to have when books were physical property, and were something that you actually bought — along with the right to resell and/or lend them to whomever you wished, whenever you wished. Those rights no longer exist, which is why it’s better to think of an ebook purchase as an agreement to rent access under specific terms rather than an actual acquisition of something tangible."
http://gigaom.com/2012/10/22/a-healthy-reminder-from-amazon-you-dont-buy-ebooks-you-rent-them/
The Logos EULA states:
At Logos' sole discretion you may transfer all your rights to use the Software, Content, and Documentation to another person or legal entity provided you transfer this Agreement, the Software, Content, and Documentation, including all copies, updates and prior versions to such person or entity and that you retain no copies, including copies stored on computer. There will be a processing fee charged on all transfers which is subject to change without notice. As of 6/17/09 the fee is equal to $20.00 per transfer.
https://www.logos.com/support/eula
By contrast, the Kindle license is much more restrictive:
Kindle Content
Use of Kindle Content. Upon your download of Kindle Content and payment of any applicable fees (including applicable taxes), the Content Provider grants you a non-exclusive right to view, use, and display such Kindle Content an unlimited number of times, solely on the Kindle or a Reading Application or as otherwise permitted as part of the Service, solely on the number of Kindles or Supported Devices specified in the Kindle Store, and solely for your personal, non-commercial use. Kindle Content is licensed, not sold, to you by the Content Provider. The Content Provider may include additional terms for use within its Kindle Content. Those terms will also apply, but this Agreement will govern in the event of a conflict. Some Kindle Content, such as Periodicals, may not be available to you through Reading Applications.
Limitations. Unless specifically indicated otherwise, you may not sell, rent, lease, distribute, broadcast, sublicense, or otherwise assign any rights to the Kindle Content or any portion of it to any third party, and you may not remove or modify any proprietary notices or labels on the Kindle Content. In addition, you may not bypass, modify, defeat, or circumvent security features that protect the Kindle Content.
Periodicals. You may cancel your subscription as permitted in our cancellation policy in the Kindle Store. A subscription may be terminated at any time, for example, if a Periodical is no longer available. If a subscription is terminated before the end of its term, you will receive a prorated refund. We reserve the right to change subscription terms and fees from time to time, effective as of the beginning of the next subscription term.
Risk of Loss. Risk of loss for Kindle Content transfers when you download or access the Kindle Content.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?ie=UTF8&nodeId=200771440
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Tony Thomas said:
better to think of an ebook purchase as an agreement to rent access
The difference between a Kindle book and a Logos book is price.
Kindle 99 cents
Logos $20-$50
Which should I rent?
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Super.Tramp said:Tony Thomas said:
better to think of an ebook purchase as an agreement to rent access
The difference between a Kindle book and a Logos book is price.
Kindle 99 cents
Logos $20-$50
Which should I rent?
I think that it really depends upon the type of book it is and how you plan to use it. I have tons of Kindle .99 public domain books (mostly Puritan) plus a lot of free works from CCEL and other sources. I also buy a lot of regular books from Amazon for reading purposes.
However, if it is a reference work that I plan to use often, it is worth it to pay for the tagging and markup that Logos offers.
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Tony Thomas said:
Do we really own e-books?
According to this article in gigaom, we just rent them:
That is not quite legally accurate. That article may be using common terms to explain this to its readers, but if you want to be accurate, our Logos books are not rented, they are licensed. As long as you are not in breach of the license terms (which do not include a rental fee unless you opt to pay a monthly rental fee for the resources that provide that option), Logos would not have the right to shut off access to your licensed materials. That applies to Kindle as well...if you read that article, the person who was shut off had violated the Kindle license terms.
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Erik said:Tony Thomas said:
Do we really own e-books?
According to this article in gigaom, we just rent them:
That is not quite legally accurate. That article may be using common terms to explain this to its readers, but if you want to be accurate, our Logos books are not rented, they are licensed. As long as you are not in breach of the license terms (which do not include a rental fee unless you opt to pay a monthly rental fee for the resources that provide that option), Logos would not have the right to shut off access to your licensed materials. That applies to Kindle as well...if you read that article, the person who was shut off had violated the Kindle license terms.
True. The proper "word of art" is license. However, it is still something different from "ownership" as you are only given access to the files to view in specified ways using specified software subject to the terms of the license agreement. The fact that Logos allows you transfer its license is very unique in the publishing industry as most other licenses are non-transferrable.
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Tony Thomas said:Erik said:Tony Thomas said:
Do we really own e-books?
According to this article in gigaom, we just rent them:
That is not quite legally accurate. That article may be using common terms to explain this to its readers, but if you want to be accurate, our Logos books are not rented, they are licensed. As long as you are not in breach of the license terms (which do not include a rental fee unless you opt to pay a monthly rental fee for the resources that provide that option), Logos would not have the right to shut off access to your licensed materials. That applies to Kindle as well...if you read that article, the person who was shut off had violated the Kindle license terms.
True. The proper "word of art" is license. However, it is still something different from "ownership" as you are only given access to the files to view in specified ways using specified software subject to the terms of the license agreement. The fact that Logos allows you transfer its license is very unique in the publishing industry as most other licenses are non-transferrable.
Indeed, the Logos model is quite unique in allowing us to transfer licenses. I negotiate IP licenses (primarily in the semiconductor space, but I have a great deal of experience with software licensing as well) for a living and it is quite typical to have restrictions on assignment in all license agreements. Logos could have just as easily taken that path and written their EULA to prevent any transfers. That said, the fact that they have been so loose in their terms was a critical point in leading to my choice to invest in their platform. I understand the business/finance considerations that Bob is trying to juggle with their terms...and believe him when he says they will do the right thing. I realize that Logos will not for the foreseeable future be able to come out with a policy of unlimited transfers and think we are at best going to continue to get an ambiguous response. For those that can't live with that result, the only option for the foreseeable future would be to revert to print. Maybe someday there will be a change in the industry for the better, but for now I realize that the answer is not a simple one for us or Logos.
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Erik and Tony, I really appreciated both of your explanations on how book licensing works. So here is my question though? For someone who is considering replacing their paper library with and an electronic library like logos, how secure is our investment? If I spend $1700 on a New International Commentary set with Logos, how secure is that investment? If this is all a form of “renting”, how long do I get to keep the books? Can the books, one day, be taken from me or my family? Are there any actual guarantees with electronic books or do we need to hang on to our paper libraries for that?
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Helen,
Bob Pritchett has answered your questions in a blog post in 2008: http://blog.logos.com/2008/10/is_my_invesment_in_e-books_safe/ (note that the clarification regarding willing your library to your family is a broken link, most probably reffering to his comment http://blog.logos.com/2008/10/is_my_invesment_in_e-books_safe/#comment-3033 ) The basic takeaway is that an electronic library is more secure than a paper one.
Mick
Have joy in the Lord!
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I think Logos is a great company with a lot of integrity. They have a track record of doing the right thing in the best interests of their customers. As a result, I would not worry about your investment.
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Helen said:
If I spend $1700 on a New International Commentary set with Logos, how secure is that investment? If this is all a form of “renting”, how long do I get to keep the books?
It is not so much renting as it is leasing. You get to keep your books and even will the whole library to an heir. What you apparently can not do is buy a resource from another user and hen resell it if you decide it is not what you need. So you have to ask yourself if you want to spend $1700 on NICOTNICNT from Logos.com and have the revocable privilege of selling it or buy NICOT/NICNT off eBay for $900 and be stuck with it until you die.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Some smooth answers above, that don't include guarantees. I remember the real estate folks even in the middle of the real estate crash. People are always hopeful.
1. If it's for your job (e.g. a pastor, etc), it's a box of tools. And its lifetime warrenty is equal to Bob's health and interests. He's previously stated that if Logos were to go belly-up, there'd be an aftermarket of support. But this thread illustrates the license issue is the issue. And Bob 'could' be forced to sell out.
2. If it's for yourself now, and then someone else later, then you take your chances. Bob's health, publisher contracts, industry trends, and so forth. Buy accordingly.
3. Plus there's the spiritual aspects ... you can't share with your friends and hopefully potential or new converts. This aspect is rather significant for non-pastors. Oddly, pastors tend to carefully stack their books on their shelves in the office, or more recently their PC, with limited sharing. The congregation tends to 'pass books around'.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Tony Thomas said:
I would not worry about your investment.
I would caution anyone who views Logos resources as a liquid "investment." Your ability to cash out your investment is seriously compromised, or even non-existent.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I only view books as an investment in my education and personal development, not as a liquid asset. For example, I get a lot more out of my Logos library than I would taking a handful college level courses that cost the same amount of money. Books make lousy investments, even paper ones. If you have ever taken a stack of paper books to a used bookstore to sell, you know what I mean.
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Thanks Guys! I feel now I have a much better understanding of how the ebook world works and it has been very helpful. Thanks!
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By the way ST, I understand your point about "liquid investments" and it is a good point. But we also have to understand logos has to make a profit and pay their employees or quality will be reduced or worst case scenario, they go belly up. The last thing we want is logos to become a trading post. If so, all logos customers will be hurt.
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Tony Thomas said:
I only view books as an investment in my education and personal development, not as a liquid asset.
Maybe you don't plan to spend a lot on Logos over your lifespan. I view things longer term. I was not buying Logos strictly for my short life expectancy. I was lulled into believing my library could benefit others. It was Logos past practices that swayed me.
I returned to Logos in 2008 by buying Scholar Silver 3.0 from a Canadian pastor. I then found a second-hand copy of Scholar Gold 3.0 for a great price. I sold my Silver license on eBay for more than I paid for the Gold license. Logos had no problem allowing me to resell the Silver license I had purchased used. I then upgraded my Gold license to Portfolio, Verbum Capstone, Reformed Diamond, Anglican Diamond, Lutheran Gold, and Master Bundle, ver. 2, XL. All these (and another 10,000+ books) were purchased directly from Logos with no mention of a "one transfer" rule.
Last week I sold my rarely used SDA Bible Commentary 3.0 Expanded Edition to someone who wanted it. This is a product Logos no longer sells on their website so they are not losing a sale. When I transferred it they said once transferred, it can not be transferred again.
If that is not a policy change it is at least a change in practice. I want the issue of resale transfers addressed. The silence is deafening!
Had Logos not allowed resale transfers in the past, I would not have assembled a library off 15,000+ volumes or spent upwards of $50,000 building a treasure I could pass along to others, in whole or in part. I had a multi-generational view of my Logos "investment."
So really I am not complaining about cash liquidity. I am upset with loss of freedom and flexibility of my library....Silly me...It is not my library, it is Logos' library on my computer.
,
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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As Logos does not make money on the secondary market for their resources, it is clear that they want to limit "horse trading" as much as they can. And it seems that is within their right as the licensor of the product.
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This explains Logos' position:===============================================================================================================FROM:October 29, 2008 at 9:53 am #
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I too wish logos could afford to allow their customers to do both buy and sale their products. Maybe if logos was a publisher they could afford to allow their customers this freedom but they are not. Instead they are a middle man that compiles published books into software and sales them to other people for a profit. Publishers have to make money off the books and Logos must make sufficient money to pay their employees. It appears to me, allowing customers unconditional rights to sale their books would cause too much of a financial squeeze on Logos. Bob has to keep logos both Spiritually and Financially sound and this may be the only way he can do that.
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Helen said:
I too wish logos could afford to allow their customers to do both buy and sale their products.
It may also be a matter of the contractual rights Logos holds - they likely are limited by contracts that only allow them to license the works.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Tony Thomas said:
As Logos does not make money on the secondary market for their resources, it is clear that they want to limit "horse trading" as much as they can. And it seems that is within their right as the licensor of the product.
first of all, you are wrong. Nobody makes money on the secondary market (car manufacturers, publishers, builders, etc), with the exception of consumers and speculators. In paper book market, "first sale" doctrine states that Right Holders have no rights to regulate how the book is handled (given away, sold, rented, etc.) after the first transaction. There was a major case a year ago with someone legally buying books overseas and re-selling them in the US. Clearly, right holders want to limit it as much as they can, but the courts said for years that they have no rights (after the "first sale").
With digital it is a little more complicated. Amazon and Logos do control distribution. In the case of Amazon, it has always been stated "non-transferable license", however, Logos for years maintained that we would be able to transfer our licenses. Legally, I do not believe there is a distinction between consumer wanting to will their library to an heir or to sell it to somebody else. A case can be made, that if one comes into legal possession of a license, he or she should be able to enjoy all rights and privileges of the first buyer.
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MJ. Smith said:
It may also be a matter of the contractual rights Logos holds - they likely are limited by contracts that only allow them to license the works.
I am not quite sure what you mean by this. I do not believe Rights Holders have any rights beyond the first sale, so they cannot demand Logos enforcing it. On the other hand, if Logos allows any customer to transfer any collections or orders to another person, all control ultimately resides with Logos, I believe. Yes, they would not make any money on the secondary market, but it should not mean that a person who bought appropriate licenses legally should all of the sudden lose his rights to sell or transfer.
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The secondary market for e-books is a tricky subject.
There is no "first sale doctrine" for e-books. They are currently treated by the law as software and governed by licensing agreements.
And based on this, it doesn't look like this is likely to change anytime soon:
http://gigaom.com/2014/06/06/should-you-have-a-right-to-sell-your-ebooks-and-digital-music/
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Tony Thomas said:
As Logos does not make money on the secondary market for their resources, it is clear that they want to limit "horse trading" as much as they can.
Kinda like Walmart? I feel like I am trapped in another episode of American Greed. To maximize profits:
- Logos quit selling in Bible book stores (Zondervan, Mardel's, etc)
- Logos squeezed out third-party resellers (Rejoice Christian Software, etc)
- Logos quit licensing their platform to third-party publishers (IVP, Galaxie, etc)
- Logos now wants to prevent re-sales
This week, in response to the dollar-grab:
- I have deleted all my Community Pricing orders ($7000+)
- I have deleted most of my Pre-Pub list ($23,000+)
- I have deleted almost all of my Wishlists
Q: How is that maximizing profits working for you, Logos?
Right now, Dave Kaplan is the only thing about Logos that makes me smile.
I once sat across the table from a preacher who said to me, "You know I am lying. I know I am lying. But you will never get me to admit it to anyone else." I got sick to my stomach. That nausea has returned; not because of any lie, but because of the failure of Logos to own up to a change of practice in regards to re-saleability of licenses.
Bob says it is because of serial refunders and transfer abusers. But I got the email in black and white, "Once transferred, an item may not be transferred again." If Logos wants to change business practices, I must too. I can not afford to bind all my licenses into one I can only bequeath.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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"Yes, you can pass your books to your grandchildren.
"Logos already transfers licenses (for a small service fee) when someone needs to pass on their entire library. It’s happened when people die, or retire, or change roles in an organization. The technology doesn’t (at this point) support this directly, so it’s a bit of a hassle involving database manipulation, but we can do it.The bigger point is that electronic books are still a bit different: while you can pass your library along to someone, it’s not really like a paper library where you can loan or give an individual title to someone by just pulling it off your shelf. And while we’re happy to transfer libraries, and always want to do the right thing by our customers, we do not want to support people re-selling every $10 title in their large collection (purchased at 90% off retail) for $1 each.
"Sorry for the confusion."