Logos only lets your transfer book Licenses once???
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There's more at stake than the rights of individual "VIP customers" here. There's also the perceived or actual value of resources to transferees or buyers.
I think Logos needs to go back to the drawing board for this one. It's too broad a brush. Clearly Logos can't only be thinking about examples on the extreme end of the spectrum, e.g. serial abusers, people wanting to transfer only upon their death (actually in some jurisdictions that may be more than an automatic "transfer").
Early last year I bought some stuff off someone who was cutting down on ministry. To be honest, I was partly trying to help him out, as I was not saving a lot by buying used. If I had known there was such a policy then, I probably wouldn't consider it.
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I wish I had seen this thread before I had ordered an upgrade this morning and purchased a commentary set as well. It would of saved me the hassle.
So I just wasted time calling to get a refund on the upgrade. Logos really needs to make public "official" policy like this to be readily available for those purchasing resources.
Logos 10 - OpenSuse Tumbleweed, Windows 11, Android 16 & Android 14
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MJ. Smith said:
I strongly urge those who think Logos has wronged them or who need something from Logos, to deal directly with Logos and see what Logos in fact does ... and, yes, this including sometimes going up the chain of command to see if your circumstances justify a bending of the general rule.
Hey everyone, MJ is right. NB Mick too. I should have appealed to Bob with my concerns.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Bob Pritchett said:
And maybe it's a waste of time, trying to explain/defend our thinking in such detail.
Not a waste of time. You finally get through to me.
Bob Pritchett said:This thread is a real wake-up call. I am crushed to think that Super Tramp is canceling future orders --
I will be emailing Dave Kaplan next week with an upgrade order for Baker Academic Bible Studies Bundle (175 vols.) I will temper my buying with the notion that I am buying for my own use and not as an asset to be sold.
I still plan on getting the Baptist Diamond and Pentecostal-Charismatic Silver base packages.
I have not forgotten your kindness in the Sumner of 2012 when I had the coma. You helped me immensely with my Logos account so I could address $700K in medical bills. That speaks volumes for the character of those running Logos.
I will pray that God gives you wisdom in handling abuses and system-gamers.
~~~~Matthew "fanboy" Jones
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I just wanted to add something to this thread, even though I haven't read it all but most (it is on page 11 already). It seems to me that Bob has taken the advice of so many and is trying to give people a chance to get the feel of logos with out a large investment via free and cheap resources. And to that I say great job!! But I must admit I have never bought logos with the intention of ever reselling them, I will certainly will them to somebody. It's kind of like something else I hold dear and that would be my firearms, I think I would live in a box at the park before I would ever dream of selling them. I don't think logos will ever lose their position as the number one bible software. And I don't think I would ever sell them. I am not trying to argue with anyone, I mean no offense to anyone else. You may feel other wise, it is just my opinion.
In His Name
Matt
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Earl Sheneman said:
Bob I just want to say that I love Logos and appreciate the fact that you as CEO are willing to come on the forums and interact with customers the way you do. Your gracious spirit and attitude of being willing to do what is right for your customers means a lot to me and I believe says a lot about Logos as a company. I am on a retirement budget and probably will never be one of the big spenders but I hope to be a customer on some level for many more years as Logos has been such a blessing to me. Please pass on my thanks to the whole Logos team for the great job they are doing.
Very well said, Earl. [Y] My thoughts and sentiments exactly.
Thank you, Bob, for your very helpful and kind explanation.
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I understand your language and your tone Bob.
I hope your employees can learn from your posts and attitude also.
You got my support.
ps: Please polish the Notes, it needs soooo much work.
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Bob Pritchett said:
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Again, as I repeat over and over, our only solid policy is doing the right thing for the customer, and these lightweight policies/guidelines that emerge organically over time are simply our team's response to abuse problems, and ways to 'call it out' in advance / provide a rule we can cite if/when we need to invoke it. But clearly it's offending our best customers, and we don't want that.
If you'll all forgive some bluntness -- since nothing else seems to be able to kill this thread:
A large investment in Logos resources is incredibly safe because we're not complete idiots. (Though it feels like it this week!) We're a business, and when you spend money with a business that wants to keep you as a customer -- as we do -- part of what you're buying is goodwill and attention.
If you have a large investment in Logos resources, we are going to do whatever reasonable thing you ask of us. You can will your library, transfer books, ask for and receive my personal cell number and treat me as your 24/7 tech support agent.
So you can have whatever you want. We will do anything to make you happy.
And maybe it's a waste of time, trying to explain/defend our thinking in such detail.
This thread is a real wake-up call. I am crushed to think that Super Tramp is canceling future orders -- to the tune of an annual salary! -- because of a single statement we made about a policy we only enforce sporadically, when needed, and would never apply to an incredible customer like him.
Clearly that wasn't a good investment, and cost us far more than it saved, just with one user -- and who knows how many others of you reading this and not posting...
So we'll take this to heart, discuss changes in our operations, and try even harder to earn your trust and knock down 'policy' growth.
But I hope you'll take from this, if nothing else, that none of this is about 'maximizing profits' or 'greed'. It's about the everyday challenge of staying in business when you're balancing the needs of 2.5 million low-revenue users against the different needs of the few thousand people who pay the bills.
--BOB
I started using Logos over 20 years ago ,and I presume I am probably a high-end customer. That said , I was also in sales for 42 years, and I know that in all business transactions there has to be a level of trust. I'm convinced Bob is honest and sincere. I think it's time to put away the hatchets, and to exercise faith in Logos and Bob's promises.
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Bob Pritchett said:
Maybe it's time to publish a big book of rules and promises that we can quote at each other.
That would keep some happy and step on others toes. Maybe if you put it into CP to see if there is any interest?
And then those that wanted it could be pointed to the fact that it has not yet [if ever] made it though the CP process.
Then there is the 10 years that it will 'stall' in the pre pub process. ......... [6]
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What does "pp" and "cp" mean?0
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David Dobbs said:
What does "pp" and "cp" mean?
Logos often tries to see if a proposed resource will sell.
So if the resource is in the public domain they float the proposal in CP - Community Pricing.
If it is under copyright they float the proposal in Pre Pub
From the forum look at the top line and hit the logos.com button [And they changed to website yet again]
Under store you will find both Community Pricing and Pre Pub [Pre-Publication]
We can save a lot of money by signing up early to get a new resource.
Under Community Pricing watch the video
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This would have been a good deal last week. This week, There is no way I would even consider it.Super.Tramp said:I am selling my 40 volume NICOT/NICNT and my 69 volume Hermeneia/Continental Commentaries.
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I would like to know if this means that if I willed by library to someone then whether on their death the licences could not be transferred in their will.
We were told that there was no intent to impact on bequeathing your library then hands were held up to one transfer only rule which had in fact been sneaked in and as far as I can tell this is where we currently stand.
When you have or are investing tens of thousands this is a serous concern.
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I'm going to be over the 7k resource mark here soon. Which surprised me when I realized it. I've been a relatively heavy investor and all on a shoestring.Mike Pettit said:I would like to know if this means that if I willed by library to someone then whether on their death the licences could not be transferred in their will.
We were told that there was no intent to impact on bequeathing your library then hands were held up to one transfer only rule which had in fact been sneaked in and as far as I can tell this is where we currently stand.
When you have or are investing tens of thousands this is a serous concern.
Bob did say willing a library would never be a concern. I (as you can see from my signature) have been around for a while, even if not on the forums. I trust Bob, therefore I trust Logos. I also trust my salesman, he gets things done for me when they need to be RE resources or helping me keep in budget.
It sounds like the "rule" isn't so much a rule, as a way to inhibit those who seek to take advantage. If you aren't doing that (and your not), then Bob as much as said he'd give you the house. A simple full transfer upon your death should be no problem.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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I think Mike's question (and I could easily be wrong) is what happens to the will-ee? Does he/she have transfer rights. The issue is what happens if you pick the wrong person to be the will-ee. They have to kill themselves to get it to the proper person. If George wanted your Logos, but in the meantime got Accordance, could George give it to Sally? I know this sounds silly but it's the whole point of 'willing'.
And yes, everyone's exhausted by this thread. And no progress from the first entry beyond re-assurances of Bob's good-guy-ishness. It'd sure be nice if Logos would just spell out whatever rule they'd like so we can plan appropriately.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Denise said:
I think Mike's question (and I could easily be wrong) is what happens to the will-ee? Does he/she have transfer rights. The issue is what happens if you pick the wrong person to be the will-ee. They have to kill themselves to get it to the proper person. If George wanted your Logos, but in the meantime got Accordance, could George give it to Sally? I know this sounds silly but it's the whole point of 'willing'.
And yes, everyone's exhausted by this thread. And no progress from the first entry beyond re-assurances of Bob's good-guy-ishness. It'd sure be nice if Logos would just spell out whatever rule they'd like so we can plan appropriately.
[Y]
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I have grown weary of waiting. I have instituted an appropriate plan. If I can not justify the price of a resource as a personal, single use purchase, I won't buy it. We simply can't be assured of anything beyond that. It could be a blessing in disguise. As a matter of fact, I am off to the Mother Ship to cancel an order .... or two. [:(]Denise said:It'd sure be nice if Logos would just spell out whatever rule they'd like so we can plan appropriately.
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Denise said:
I think Mike's question (and I could easily be wrong) is what happens to the will-ee? Does he/she have transfer rights. The issue is what happens if you pick the wrong person to be the will-ee. They have to kill themselves to get it to the proper person. If George wanted your Logos, but in the meantime got Accordance, could George give it to Sally? I know this sounds silly but it's the whole point of 'willing'.
And yes, everyone's exhausted by this thread. And no progress from the first entry beyond re-assurances of Bob's good-guy-ishness. It'd sure be nice if Logos would just spell out whatever rule they'd like so we can plan appropriately.
I am not sure if it was in an email to me or on here earlier.. Willing a library and then they willing it on to another is not an issue. Entire Library transfers are relatively easy according to Bob. The issue has do with people scamming the system and the fact that it takes many hours to remove a resource from one account and transfer it to another account.
-Dan
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Dan ... you're kind of missing the point. Your willed-to needs to die, in the instance where they don't want/need your gorgeous Logos library. Or put another way, your gorgeous library reaches a value of zero, if you choose wrong.
Now in my case, I don't propose to jealously guard my Logos digital licenses until I'm 105 (since all my friends will likely also be 105). I see the value in giving decades BEFORE I die.
And I don't see a lot of value in giving decades BEFORE I die, if the new recipient is stuck reading Denise's nutty choices (although I would strongly argue the book on Assyrian prophets is a gem).
And I certainly don't want to receive the email ST received. By that time it'll be too late.
Now, I'm completely confident Logos is immune to the question (they don't see their demise on the horizon). And with their detachment of Libronix licensing (both ways I might point out), I'm also completely confident I can do as they can ... and do as I wish.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Dan Francis said:
The issue has do with people scamming the system and the fact that it takes many hours to remove a resource from one account and transfer it to another account.
I have a few ideas to curtail scammers and excessive refunds. I even have an idea on how to handle those VM clone disks. But maiming reselling is not one of them.
Also, I don't think it takes "many hours" to transfer a license. At least it shouldn't.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Paul C said:
This would have been a good deal last week. This week, There is no way I would even consider it.Super.Tramp said:I am selling my 40 volume NICOT/NICNT and my 69 volume Hermeneia/Continental Commentaries.
Last week a Logos license was like a pipe wrench in a plumber's toolbox -- it was a reusable tool. This week that license has become the Teflon pipe tape -- a consumable. I believe all licenses have diminished value whether you buy them from another user or from the Logos website.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Super.Tramp said:
Also, I don't think it takes "many hours" to transfer a license. At least it shouldn't.
Bob indicated it is entirely a manual process so it should be time consuming ... how time consuming? I suspect that depends on when the product was initially purchased, if it has already gone through transfers, etc. Without factual evidence to the contrary, I suggest the guidelines provided to a high school philosophy class taught by a friend:
My principal rule for inquiry: “Never deny, seldom affirm, always distinguish.”
Never deny: I ask students to always presume the good and never deny outright someone’s conclusion. This requires charity and patience. This allows us the ability to respect the person and acknowledge that an erroneous claim may ultimately contain some truth.
Seldom affirm: I desire for my students to advance their conversations without fear so they may arrive at the truth together. This principle allows us to fully investigate our particular objections so that the conversation may advance and truth may be discovered.
Always distinguish: Students are expected to always qualify their terms and definitions. This principle allows the student to accomplish the first two principles while recognizing the limits of language, with the hope of achieving a better answer collectively. This requires humility and understanding and allows us to challenge not only ourselves, but also our colleagues in our quest for truth.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Denise said:
Dan ... you're kind of missing the point. Your willed-to needs to die, in the instance where they don't want/need your gorgeous Logos library. Or put another way, your gorgeous library reaches a value of zero, if you choose wrong.
Now in my case, I don't propose to jealously guard my Logos digital licenses until I'm 105 (since all my friends will likely also be 105). I see the value in giving decades BEFORE I die.
And I don't see a lot of value in giving decades BEFORE I die, if the new recipient is stuck reading Denise's nutty choices (although I would strongly argue the book on Assyrian prophets is a gem).
And I certainly don't want to receive the email ST received. By that time it'll be too late.
Now, I'm completely confident Logos is immune to the question (they don't see their demise on the horizon). And with their detachment of Libronix licensing (both ways I might point out), I'm also completely confident I can do as they can ... and do as I wish.
Well I have one or two smaller purchases that are odd, but over all I believe you can give your entire library away anytime you choose, but you no longer have it. To break it up into multiple pieces to give away is what would be problematic. You may think X will never want to read your nutty choices but they are part of your Library. It sounds like Logos software is like a soup rather than a card catalog. Removing all the kidney beans from the soup is easier said than done. I am not saying it wouldn't be nice to give or sell items easily we are done with or do not use, but continuing the analogy it's easier to give away or sell the pot of soup, rather than give the pinto beans to A the tomatoes to B and the ground beef to C and the Pasta to D and the base to E. I am well aware the church will have little use for somethings like the Perseus library or the SDA collection (not a base package but the old CDROM collection) I got for curiosity sake. I assume they will either ignore the items they don't want or hide them. The thought of them selling books would not bother me but again to me it would seem to be about as easy as unmaking soup.
-Dan
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Mathew Haferkamp said:
But I must admit I have never bought logos with the intention of ever reselling them, I will certainly will them to somebody. It's kind of like something else I hold dear and that would be my firearms, I think I would live in a box at the park before I would ever dream of selling them. I don't think logos will ever lose their position as the number one bible software. And I don't think I would ever sell them. I am not trying to argue with anyone, I mean no offense to anyone else. You may feel other wise, it is just my opinion.
In His Name
Matt
Matt, I appreciate your post. As a customer with over 4,000 resources in Logos, I didn't think I'd ever want to sell my resources either. But, since I am not in the professional ministry any longer, I could not justify retaining two of the more popular Logos packages -- NICOT/NICNT and WBC -- that I had in my library. I felt I needed to sell these instead of letting them sit unused, and I essentially did sell them for what I paid for them. I suppose I could have given them away, but since I got NICOT/NICNT on prepub when it was first released and purchased WBC at a very low price from a third-party reseller during the Libronix days, selling them for what I paid for them gave a couple of buyers an opportunity to obtain these sets at an affordable price. I realize that Logos didn't get the sales for these packages directly from these buyers, but Logos got my original business on one set and made a cut on the other. Reading what "rules" were in place and contacting customer service about my intentions, I knew I was doing nothing wrong or abusive by offloading these sets.
However, aside from these two sets, like you I plan to hold onto the library that I now have. Ultimately, I plan to factor my library into my estate planning and really want it to transfer to the person I name in my last will. I believe I will be able to do that based upon what I have heard Bob say.
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Here is a crazy thought. Could it be that logos has become too big? Do they really need this much staff to produce their software? Could they produce the same product without all the overhead? It seems to me, the more logos grows staff wise, the more products they will have to sell to pay their bills. Also the cost of books will go up and the more squeeze they will have to put on third parties, like logos users trying to sale as well. My point is: could lowering their overhead help solve this problem. This is just a thought. I might be totally wrong.
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Not sure if I should relay this story or not, but it does demonstrate Logos commitment to customer service EVEN WHEN AGAINST THE RULES.
Perhaps this is the source of my confidence.
I purchased a set of L3 disks off amazon.com. They were marketed as new, arrived used and already activated. Worse the former user ("Christine") was an academic user. Academic resources are not to be transferred. CS (over the course of a series of emails and phone calls) went ahead and merged her resources into my account. They could have said "tough, its a 100$ lesson". But they didn't. They didn't even charge me 20$. It was against the rules, but since Logos is awesome they activated it on my account. I sent about 3 emails (pictures of what I got, serials, cds, packaging, receipt), and then two phone calls later (the CS rep called me, and then I called her back when I received her Voicemail) I was downloading and happy.L2 lvl4 (...) WORDsearch, all the way through L10,
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Helen said:
Do they really need this much staff to produce their software?
They build content as well as software ... they are perpetually short of programmers for their software.
Helen said:Could they produce the same product without all the overhead?
Given how long we wait at times for retagging for new features to be complete, I suspect many of us would prefer more overhead ... or a redistribution of the overhead.
I have the good fortunate of having no interest in the business side so I won't speculate on if they could be leaner and meaner ...
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
... how time consuming? I suspect that depends on when the product was initially purchased, if it has already gone through transfers, etc.
My transfer of the SDA Bible Commentary v3.0 must have been the simplest transfer. It was accomplished very fast. (Thanks Steve Workman)
I guess I can see splitting one invoice three ways might take a bit of effort.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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I would point out that philosophy (and philosophy professors) are sometimes the furthest removed from Reality. The guidelines set down may be a good template for acing the course. But fall woefully short in navigating the Real World.MJ. Smith said:Without factual evidence to the contrary, I suggest the guidelines provided to a high school philosophy class taught by a friend:
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Be careful Paul - my BA was in philosophy with a senior thesis on model theory applied to international interest rates. Philosophy IS the real world ... the question is simply whether or not you recognize the lens through which you experience the world. And yes, I started out as a chemistry major with a strong interest in .... abductive logic and model theory of course.[;)]
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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