Rethinking the value of Logos and electronic resoruces
I recently bought a CD based Libronix resource from a party online. The product had been opened/used, but contained all original packaging (case/cds/papers/etc) and the original serial number and activation code. After attempting to activate it with customer service over the phone I was told the product could not be activated without a letter from the original party that purchased the software X many years ago. This has stirred some thoughts.
For a long time I’ve had a reluctance to go “fully into” Logos, Accordance, or whatever Bible study software. My reluctance has stemmed from the reality that unlike real books you can hold, lend to a friend, sale to a stranger, and store in an attic and take down 2 decades later—software (and the companies that sell them) have a shelf life. Software is only as good as the company that sells it. Hopefully, 30-40 years from now my kids will inherit my library of physical books. They can divide them up however they so wish. Some will want my collection of the classics while others may argue over my collection of early church resources. Maybe they’ll sell some of them to a stranger in order to pay for their latest trip to Mars. I’m hoping they’ll give some away to friends here and there too. I’ll probably be dead and gone—so I’m not going to worry about my codex books. My Logos books are a whole other story though.
What will my children do with the thousands of dollars worth of “e-resources” I’ve paid for and “collected?” Will Logos be around in 5, 10, 20, 40, 60 years? My experience w/ customer service today has made it clear they will have hurdles in sharing my digital library among themselves. Perhaps Sally will want resource X and Susie resource Y, but they can’t break up what was originally sold as a bundle. Or maybe the resources weren’t purchased as a bundle but the Logos of 40 years from now has recorded, wrongly, that the resources were purchased as a bundle. I keep copious records, but I’ll be dead and gone and unable to prove from that X and Y were NOT originally part of a bundle. Sorry Susie, Sally is my executor—no ebooks for you. Or what if Logos has a sizable data crash—a catastrophe where the backup’s backup is also fried and records are lost… Susie and Sally have just lost their inheritance unless they can somehow find dad’s archived email correspondence from 35 years earlier saved in 74 Outlook .pst files. Even then I can see them looking at each other and saying, “What’s Outlook?” Perhaps, Susie and Sally will face the unfortunate reality that they can’t pay the new transfer fee of $400 Logos has in the year 2060 (inflation you know). Or worst case, the economy continues to sour and Logos folds and all of our cloud based products simply disappear overnight. Don’t say it couldn’t happen. If it did—how much would you lose? Some of us would cry over resources that rival impressive libraries, but I would cry over the loss of thousands upon thousands of dollars worth of electronic resources. Resources that I don’t have on my physical book shelf. What if the power goes out for 2 weeks—how will your sermon prep go? Thankfully I have many physical books, but I have friends who would be up a creek for sermon prep or even reading!
Now if my house burns down tonight—I have insurance. All of my codex books are cataloged. Parts of my library is old and irreplaceable, but I still have insurance to recoup a good deal of my sizable investment. Thankfully with Logos, if my house burns tonight I simply need to download my products (or the products I have a license to since I don’t technically own anything) again on the new computer my insurance provides. However, lets fast forward. In 2060, providing Ebola or X Y Z doesn’t wipe us all out, my kids will still be able to open up a codex and read it. The codex is theirs. They own it. They won’t need an activation code to use it. They won’t legally hold a product (like I did today) in their hands and be unable to utilize it. I have no such confidence with Logos. Even if Logos is still around in 2060 (which I hope they are) and we are on Logos version 42 I will have had to buy countless new computers to run the updates to the programs. Hopefully indexing then doesn’t take as ghastly long as it does now.
I say all of this, only partially to express my frustration that with Logos I cannot utilize a product that I legally bought, can show a bill of sale for, hold in my hand, have activation codes and serial numbers for. Beyond this, my experience today has stirred some deeper thoughts on e-resources. I think many people are short sighted as they go gung-ho into the Logos ecosystem. Don’t get me wrong—I like if not love my Logos system. My dad’s used Logos since it’s very beginning in the 1990s. Other preachers use to mock him for it! Logos has been a great time-saver and tremendous resource. But as I plan on how I will spend several thousand dollars worth of “book money” next year I’m leaning more toward getting… actual books. I want books I know my kids can use 40 years from now. I demand books they won’t have to pay a transfer fee to utilize. I want books that I can give away and some poor soul won’t have to have a letter from me to utilize… especially since I’ll probably be dead.
Maybe you’re a new user or, like me, you’ve spent thousands upon thousands of dollars to build a decent sized e-library. Good for you—enjoy Logos! BUT I caution you to think realistically about the “value” of Logos and how long you and future generations will really be able to utilize the licenses (not books) you’ve bought.
Comments
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178294z said:
After attempting to activate it with customer service over the phone I was told the product could not be activated without a letter from the original party that purchased the software X many years ago.
You have really explained everything. You bought a used copy. Some one else activated it. They own the license, not you. Logos will transfer that license if contacted by the original owner. What is wrong with that?
Perhaps you should ask the person you bought the CD from to give your your money back. If he/she won't, then take your frustration out on him or accept the fact that you made a poor purchase and move on.
I fail to see why Logos is supposed to make up for a sale they had no part in and certainly made no guarantees about.
As to the rest of your comments and concerns they have been addressed here no end. Logos will transfer your licenses to your children when you ask them to with the stipulations you already know about. It's a different world. Print analogies don't apply. Logos is trying to be fair. Try to work things out with Sally and Susie ahead of time.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
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178294z said:
I say all of this, only partially to express my frustration that with Logos I cannot utilize a product that I legally bought, can show a bill of sale for, hold in my hand, have activation codes and serial numbers for.
But you didn't. The owner didn't have the right to transfer ownership of the licenses without first relinquishing the licenses. Otherwise, what is to stop me from purchasing a base package for $1000 and selling it to all the freshmen students down the hill for $100 a piece? (Now that I think about it, I am a little strapped for cash. Diapers aren't cheap).
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I have been building a "death packet" that contains many such items as receipts and record print outs for just such an occurrence. In the event of my demise my family will know that I kept such a folder in my file cabinet, appropriately labeled of course.
It is not finished yet (and will never be truly finished while I breathe) but once it is, I'll announce its location - since it will also contain my will.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Your right. Give up and don't buy anything that doesn't have an eternal value.
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Wow. As others have said, you didn't legally buy this software.
I dare say an electronic library with a software company behind it has a much better chance of surviving 50 years from now than any paper library does. It's why first edition books from 50 years ago now command a fortune to purchase - because very few of them survived.
Those books are an asset to us, but are an asset to Logos/Faithlife as well - it keeps us in their community. If any company eventually replaced Logos, they probably figured out how to legally convert their resources to support new software, making it easy for customers to migrate. These resources are a valuable asset to everyone.
Why do people freak about spending several thousand dollars on Bible software, yet spend much more, maybe an order of magnitude more, on a car that won't last anywhere near 15 years? Why do we do the same with furniture, sporting goods, and other disposable income - driven purchases?
Maybe the answer is don't buy software that only justifies the purchase if the next 4 generations can use it for free. If there's no value to you, don't buy it. You are ok with the car expiring at end of life given what you pay for it, consider Bible software the same way. If you are lucky enough that it survives you, that's a bonus.
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alabama24 said:
But you didn't. The owner didn't have the right to transfer ownership of the licenses without first relinquishing the licenses. Otherwise, what is to stop me from purchasing a base package for $1000 and selling it to all the freshmen students down the hill for $100 a piece?
The analogy breaks down here: Selling someone the original physical product (CDs/case/activation codes/serial numbers) is different than seeking to defraud a software company and other individuals by selling 10 people the same activation code. It seems reasonable, to me at least, that ownership should follow the possession of physical property. I understand Logos ties a product's license to the original purchaser, but the issue I have is the physical software's packaging does not specify this. I am a reasonable person - I would have no issue if the packaging stated this, but it doesn't.
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TCBlack said:
I have been building a "death packet" that contains many such items as receipts and record print outs for just such an occurrence. In the event of my demise my family will know that I kept such a folder in my file cabinet, appropriately labeled of course.
It is not finished yet (and will never be truly finished while I breathe) but once it is, I'll announce its location - since it will also contain my wil
There is a lot of wisdom to this. In our digital world I think many of us fail to think through the transfer of digital rights.
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Kent said:
Your right. Give up and don't buy anything that doesn't have an eternal value.
Very spiritual answer [:)]
The point is not to put Logos down, but to raise the question of the true "value" of digital resources. There is a great deal of debate over the future of digital media and people's "investments" in proprietary platforms like the Kindle, iTunes, the Nook, etc.
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Don Awalt said:
As others have said, you didn't legally buy this software.
I understand what you're really saying and Logos' position, but my answer is... I did buy the software. I certainly didn't steal it or hold a gun up to someone to buy "Bible Study" software. I legally exchanged currency for a physical product in its original packaging with an activation code. Yet, as you have pointed out, in the paradox of our digital world I don't "own" anything even though someone has transfered physical, tangible product to my possession.
Of course Logos has tremendous value (I think we all could go on for pages), but I think the nature of digital media is something many of us take for granted.
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178294z said:
It seems reasonable, to me at least, that ownership should follow the possession of physical property.
The problem is, however, that you aren't interested in the "physical property." You are interested in an electric resource, which is bound by licensing agreements.
178294z said:I would have no issue if the packaging stated this
I have no idea what the original packaging states... but I doubt you really want to install the original software.
You should contact the seller and ask for assistance. Your beef should be with them.
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Mark Smith said:
It's a different world. Print analogies don't apply.
I agree that digital media has crafted a different world. I disagree that print analogies don't apply however. Does Logos still compares the cost of base packages to the cost of print material? As the title of my original post stated, I'm rethinking the ultimate, long-term "value" of electronic resources and the "ownership" of them.
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But .....But ..... But ... But, But ... But, But, But.
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178294z said:
I understand what you're really saying and Logos' position, but my answer is... I did buy the software. I certainly didn't steal it or hold a gun up to someone to buy "Bible Study" software. I legally exchanged currency for a physical product in its original packaging with an activation code.
It is frustrating I know. But since the software is bound by licensing, it is the license that determines whether you accidentally (and with full honest integrity) bought stolen merchandise. It is the seller who knows that answer.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
alabama24 said:
The problem is, however, that you aren't interested in the "physical property." You are interested in an electric resource, which is bound by licensing agreements.
The electronic resource was packaged on a "physical" CD. No licensing agreements on transferability are noted on the physical resource.
alabama24 said:I have no idea what the original packaging states... but I doubt you really want to install the original software.
The original packaging sold a resource not "software."
alabama24 said:You should contact the seller and ask for assistance. Your beef should be with them.
I don't really have a beef; I'm certain I get my money back, but that wasn't the point of my post [:)]
Again, I simply think it is important for the consumer to think through or consider the differences between tangible, physical, study resources we buy and the nature of license agreements we agree to (or don't know we agree to when we buy software).
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And the EULA which is on the disk contains all of this.178294z said:The electronic resource was packaged on a "physical" CD. No licensing agreements on transferability are noted on the physical resource.
BUT THAT IS NOT YOUR POINT! (Sorry to shout, I'm trying to switch back to your main topic... Try to pretend I did that while smiling - 'cuz I did.)
<- See!?
You are 100% correct. That got lost in the discussion. We absolutely must weigh the value we get -vs- the money we pay and the expectations and stated or unstated "things" that go along with it.178294z said:Again, I simply think it is important for the consumer to think through
That's why my logos license is going to my son, as recorded in my death packet.
Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
178294z said:alabama24 said:
But you didn't. The owner didn't have the right to transfer ownership of the licenses without first relinquishing the licenses. Otherwise, what is to stop me from purchasing a base package for $1000 and selling it to all the freshmen students down the hill for $100 a piece?
The analogy breaks down here: Selling someone the original physical product (CDs/case/activation codes/serial numbers) is different than seeking to defraud a software company and other individuals by selling 10 people the same activation code. It seems reasonable, to me at least, that ownership should follow the possession of physical property. I understand Logos ties a product's license to the original purchaser, but the issue I have is the physical software's packaging does not specify this. I am a reasonable person - I would have no issue if the packaging stated this, but it doesn't.
You make a very good point and something that needs further discussion and clarification. As an additional example, I can assure those interested that when I choose to give a paper copy of a book to someone, or when I die and my paper library is given to another, or if I sell those books in a legal transaction, in fact, the recipients of the books will be the owners of those books. I won't need any permission from anyone to make that so. The recipient will not need permission of anyone other than myself and the fact of the legal transaction to assume ownership. All this regardless of how many illegal copies of pages I made in the past.
This wades off into the legalities of digital rights and something for the attorneys of the publishers and consumers to work out, but I believe a legal transaction with receipt of dollars exchanged (goods and services) is a legal and binding contract. Exchange and possession of the materials associated with that legal transaction do constitute ownership. It is, in fact, the test of ownership. If I cannot transfer something I own to someone else (for whatever compensation or exchange is agreed upon), then I truly do not own it.
All that to make a point that digital rights contracts, because of the complexities involved, are not so simple and have favored protection of the publishers rights. You only have to look at the abuses of pirating music in recent years to understand why.
I think in this case, you have a legitimate reason for asking for a transfer. Whether the physical packaging states those terms would seem not relevant. Perhaps you could obtain some sort of transfer note from the seller stating that they have transferred the product to you. If not, maybe you could get a refund from them.
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It is the assumed implication of the software being unwrapped, etc. And then the Logos software couldn't activate it (because it has already been activated presumably.) Even though the software was bought legally, until the seller relinquishes his/her license (in writing I guess) there is no way to transfer ownership - thus it is an illegal transfer.Steve said: Sarcasm is my love language. Obviously I love you. 0 -
Assumed ... and ... presumably ... even though it was bought legally. ?
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Earlier this year while I was working overseas my storage locker was robbed. I lost everything except - my physical books (thief didn't want them?!?) and my Logos library. I lost the physical Logos CDs from back when but they are already activated so I still have the resources. I lost all my hand tools, I can't even change the tire/tyre on my car anymore but I didn't lose one Logos resource!
If that thief decides to sell my Logos CDs and DVDs on ebay it doesn't matter because I own the license - he's out of luck and so is the buyer, but you know what, I'm kind of glad about that. So, I've thought about it and although I didn't lose my physical books this time I know that my Logos library is safer than my tools, cutlery, CD player, etc. were. Plus Logos is portable and since I live overseas 80% of the time that's a big plus.
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TCBlack said:
It is the assumed implication of the software being unwrapped, etc. And then the Logos software couldn't activate it (because it has already been activated presumably.) Even though the software was bought legally, until the seller relinquishes his/her license (in writing I guess) there is no way to transfer ownership - thus it is an illegal transfer.
We think of legally meaning stolen or not. In the digital world legally ALSO means according to the terms and stipulation of the vendor. It is new and we aren't used to transacting business that way, old world laws said if we could hold it we own it. But in reality there are many examples of thinking we successfully completed a purchase transaction but in reality we did not get what we thought we bought. Digital products are no different.
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"illegally" probably wasn't a good choice of words. There was nothing "illegal" about it. Rather, it just wasnt a legal (valid) sale of a resource. Indulge me for a moment. Let's assume BAMA makes it to the National Title Game (a big assumption this year, I know). Let's say that someone purchases a ticket, and goes to the game. The next week they sell me the physical ticket. What good is the ticket? It won't get me into the game next year. It won't allow me to see the game already played. The value of the ticket AFTER the game is differnt than BEFORE. The Same is true (in a different way) when you "purchase" a physical disc of electronic media. The Product code has already been used. Why would you think you can use it again?
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178294z said:
I recently bought a CD based Libronix resource from a party online. The product had been opened/used, but contained all original packaging (case/cds/papers/etc) and the original serial number and activation code. After attempting to activate it with customer service over the phone I was told the product could not be activated without a letter from the original party that purchased the software X many years ago.
Simple solution. If you want the software, contact the seller and have them provide a letter or contact customer service. If you don't want the software, return it. If the person you bought it from is not the person to whom it is licensed, then you got ripped off by the person you bought it from. Chalk it up to experience and move on.
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178294z said:
but the issue I have is the physical software's packaging does not specify this. I am a reasonable person - I would have no issue if the packaging stated this, but it doesn't.
So, if I stole the laptop you have Logos installed on should I get to keep your Logos? Possession is nine-tenths of the law, right?
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Going back to the original title, re-thinking is appropriate where:
(1) You're getting older. I've noticed older men don't computer much. Their wives do. Plus I've also noticed as you get older, you spend more time with the Bible.
(2) You've answered all the key questions that need answering. When God finishes giving you the answer, there you go. My Dad, a retired preacher, has his TV control (football) and his Bible. His computer software died a decade ago. He's still going strong.
(3) I thought Libronix software worked fine by itself. It's been awhile since my last CD purchase. But I don't remember doing the license thing. Libby just works. But in the OP's case, legally? Hmmm.
"If myth is ideology in narrative form, then scholarship is myth with footnotes." B. Lincolm 1999.
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Steve said:
Perhaps you could obtain some sort of transfer note from the seller stating that they have transferred the product to you. If not, maybe you could get a refund from them.
And pay the transfer fee.
Logos 7 Collectors Edition
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Super.Tramp said:
So, if I stole the laptop you have Logos installed on should I get to keep your Logos? Possession is nine-tenths of the law, right?
1) I would still have my login credentials. 2) I never willfully gave you my install CDs/codes/etc to you. 3) You don't have a bill of sale from me. 4) If I tried to login to Logos and couldn't because you, the thief, tried to take control of my Bible study software/account I would theoretically be able to produce a police report to show Logos and the police department that you are, in fact, a thief.
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TCBlack said:
And the EULA which is on the disk contains all of this.
When I put in the old Libronix disk I didn't see a EULA, but I don't doubt there is one somewhere on the CD. The problem is it isn't on the outside of the old CD case where one can read before purchasing. If one simply comes across a product's packaging at a store somewhere they are not going to know the transfer restrictions. Thankfully, I'm not out a huge sum, but I feel for someone whose first experience with Logos involves buying a used (or "illegal" as some of you would categorize it) copy of software that has all activation codes and all original packaging only to find out a EULA somewhere inside the software says they've stolen the software even though they have a receipt in hand. After all, we all know people should put a CD in the computer first and read the EULA before buying, I mean stealing the CD [:)]
Thankfully w/ Logos moving all online one has access to the EULA before purchasing.
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Super.Tramp said:178294z said:
but the issue I have is the physical software's packaging does not specify this. I am a reasonable person - I would have no issue if the packaging stated this, but it doesn't.
So, if I stole the laptop you have Logos installed on should I get to keep your Logos? Possession is nine-tenths of the law, right?
If you stole the Laptop then you only get 90% of Logos. That's 9/10ths of the law.
Seems to me if I bought physical property for Logos software for $XXXXX.XX then I should be happy I got a pretty jewel case with papers and a piece of plastic inside. If I want a license, I don't need the physical property at all. Could have saved shipping costs. I have quite a bit of money wrapped up in Logos and not one single mug or jacket or sticker or floppy/CD/DVD to show for it.
And when I die, I'm oughtta here. My kids all have Logos, but aren't "into it" like I am. It might be a waste to give it to them and how on earth would I divide my library among them. But in time that might change. I suppose they could resell it and recoup a lot of value. I am including information about licensing and value in papers for them in case I go up the flume.
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Over 20 years ago I bought my first Logos resources. I upgraded from a program called CDWORD that had just been bought out by the new Logos company to the new Logos Bible Software. In over 20 years I have never lost an e-book that I bought from Logos. In fact, the books I bought 20 years ago are even more valuable today because of the revolutionary improvements in the software, and the free upgrades of the books themselves. Know what happened to the paper books I bought 20 years ago? If I used them much, they are worn out. Pages have come loose from the binding, some have been lost, and some stolen. I would say the value is far greater with Logos books, after 20 years. And the paper book publishers never updated or replaced a single one for free, as Logos has done every time I bought a new computer or phone.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
178294z said:
but I feel for someone whose first experience with Logos involves buying a used (or "illegal" as some of you would categorize it) copy of software that has all activation codes and all original packaging only to find out a EULA somewhere inside the software says they've stolen the software even though they have a receipt in hand.
But it is not your first experience. In a previous thread you claimed you were only able to find 65 of the 100 June Hunt Counseling resources. You also indicated you have L5.
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I am confused. The original poster has been told to contact the seller and ask him or her to call or write Logos transferring the license. Why has this simple solution not been done?
If the original owner is not willing to pay the transfer fee the buyer always could.
Until he or she takes these easy steps I don't understand what all the complaining is about.
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OP: Did Logos indicate that the serial number was currently registered with another person? Or they could not tell if it was on file? I ask because I honestly don't know how the Libronix CD's worked, never had one. General question: Was Logos the only software that used the Libronix format content? Or would there be potential of another software program using the content?
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I know it's frustrating to purchase something, only to find that you can't use it. I have made several third party purchases for Libronix products and some of them have not been cheap. Every time I called Logos to activate them I held my breathe hoping they were not already registered to another user. Thankfully, all have worked out well for me, but I definitely understand why you are frustrated.
I think the reason for the registration process is to keep me from purchasing a product, giving it to 7 other people and all of us can use the resources at the same time. This is the difference between electronic and print books. If I own a book and give it to someone, I can no longer use it. Without a registration process, more than one person has access to the resources at the same time.
I would follow the recommendation of the other posts and contact the seller to facilitate a transfer. There is a process in place for users to transfer their resources to another person so you can uses what you have purchased. I would suggest that be your next step.
I hope all works out well for you.
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I thought I would take a minute and provide an update to my original post. Last year I wrestled with the long term value of electronic resources like Logos. I have since come to some conclusions.
In short I have decided, for the first time ever, to spend around 75% of my resource budget exclusively on Logos products. To quote Tim Challies, “After years of dabbling in Logos, the new version, version 6, finally convinced me to make the leap, and for the past few months I have done all my sermon preparation using only electronic resources. To this point I have no regrets” http://www.challies.com/articles/should-you-make-the-move-to-logos
Why?
Logos is in my opinion the most stable of any Bible software company. My original post raised several questions about the stability of electronic tools. As consumers we have good reason to consider this. In my office I currently possess around 10 Bible software programs including E-Sword, Bibleworks, Accordance, Quickverse, WordSearch, Olive Tree, iLumina, Logos, and various other programs/platforms. Some of the programs are no longer supported and others are still in service. None though compare to the stability of Logos in my opinion.
Logos appears to be the most progressive of any Bible software company. This is evidenced by its branching out into other faith traditions and programs like NOET. I am impressed not only that Logos is still around but that it has exponentially improved and streamlined the software.
Logos has shown itself, in my personal experience, as being willing to look out for customers and content suppliers equally. I’m not going to go back into the issue I raised last fall, but in retrospect I respect Logos’ policy of protecting content suppliers. For the record, I also feel my main points were clouded by some good intentioned humor, legitimate frustration, and, apologetically, some unhelpful sarcasm. The digital frontier presents new challenges for companies and consumers alike. In my experience Logos is managing this challenge as best it can. I’ve come to the conclusion that Logos’ downloadable delivery format is extremely valuable. I don’t need to go to a bookstore or even wait for Amazon Prime to deliver a resource. Even more so, it protects consumers like me from people trying to sell a content CD while they still use the software! Eventually, I was able to get a hold of the gentleman I bought my CD from and after a lot of work I traced down the man he obtained it from. He had given the CD to a friend who was still using software!
Logos has shown itself willing to play nice w/ other platforms. Case in point is the new Kindle export feature. In 2014 I bought countless Kindle books. This year? Only books that aren’t in the Logos ecosystem! Logos also exports large sections of books to my printer or pdf file.
Logos isn’t a means of saving MONEY to me. I can almost always buy a cheaper version of a book used, find it free on some public commons site, or often find it cheaper on another bible study platform. Still, the value of Logos today is worth the premium of the software. The old saying “You get what you pay for” rings true here. The time and space savings is also money to me.
Logos also isn’t a means of passing on resources to other people. I love buying books so that I can read them, mark them, and then pass them on to someone else. Logos isn’t that. Yet, at the same time, I am able to copy and paste and share digitally portions of resources that I wouldn’t be able to with a book.
Are all of my red flags gone? I do have concerns still, to be honest, about the future of ownership/rental with companies I purchase from like Amazon’s Kindle and Logos. Netflix offers an unlimited, all you can eat buffet of “resources.” Part of me debates whether I should continue buying when someday I may be able to just rent! Yet this is just speculative. What I know is TODAY Logos provides unparalleled tools.
Tim Challies goes on to make many more points that echo my reason for going “all into” the Logos ecosystem: http://www.challies.com/articles/should-you-make-the-move-to-logos. I was and am utterly impressed by Logos 6. In short, I still don’t know the “long-term” use I’ll get out of Logos or anything else for that matter, but I see immense “value” in Logos “today.”
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178294z said:
In short I have decided, for the first time ever, to spend around 75% of my resource budget exclusively on Logos products.
Thanks for sharing your journey. Your explanation is very articulate and sound. I do not think you will regret your decision.
Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God
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Steve said:178294z said:alabama24 said:
But you didn't. The owner didn't have the right to transfer ownership of the licenses without first relinquishing the licenses. Otherwise, what is to stop me from purchasing a base package for $1000 and selling it to all the freshmen students down the hill for $100 a piece?
The analogy breaks down here: Selling someone the original physical product (CDs/case/activation codes/serial numbers) is different than seeking to defraud a software company and other individuals by selling 10 people the same activation code. It seems reasonable, to me at least, that ownership should follow the possession of physical property. I understand Logos ties a product's license to the original purchaser, but the issue I have is the physical software's packaging does not specify this. I am a reasonable person - I would have no issue if the packaging stated this, but it doesn't.
You make a very good point and something that needs further discussion and clarification. As an additional example, I can assure those interested that when I choose to give a paper copy of a book to someone, or when I die and my paper library is given to another, or if I sell those books in a legal transaction, in fact, the recipients of the books will be the owners of those books. I won't need any permission from anyone to make that so. The recipient will not need permission of anyone other than myself and the fact of the legal transaction to assume ownership. All this regardless of how many illegal copies of pages I made in the past.
This wades off into the legalities of digital rights and something for the attorneys of the publishers and consumers to work out, but I believe a legal transaction with receipt of dollars exchanged (goods and services) is a legal and binding contract. Exchange and possession of the materials associated with that legal transaction do constitute ownership. It is, in fact, the test of ownership. If I cannot transfer something I own to someone else (for whatever compensation or exchange is agreed upon), then I truly do not own it.
All that to make a point that digital rights contracts, because of the complexities involved, are not so simple and have favored protection of the publishers rights. You only have to look at the abuses of pirating music in recent years to understand why.
I think in this case, you have a legitimate reason for asking for a transfer. Whether the physical packaging states those terms would seem not relevant. Perhaps you could obtain some sort of transfer note from the seller stating that they have transferred the product to you. If not, maybe you could get a refund from them.
I suspect there was a good faith presumption and intent - on both the buyer and the seller's part - that in selling the physical media of a CD-based product, they were transferring the right to use the digital resources embodied on that media. That would certainly be the case in the sale of a video game cartridge or a DVD movie. The issue seems to be that the intent behind the transaction is not being recognized because it has not been documented in any fashion other than the surrender and transfer of the physical media. In a cloud-based environment, it would seem possible to recognize this intent if another account associated with the serial number/activation code of the product have not been accessed by a prior purchaser for some reasonable period of time (e.g., 6 or 12 months). If the prior user hasn't accessed their account in that period of time, and the new user can demonstrate possession of the physical media, it would seem reasonable to presume the sale of the product. Of course, Faithlife would have to be prepared to address situations where the original user subsequently claims theft. My guess is that these instances would be fairly rare. In any case, this does seem to be an area where law and commercial practice have not fully caught up with the reality of digital products.
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