Clause Search in Logos

Using the Clause Search “Search clause in All Passages in The Greek New Testament: SBL Edition” I gave the command: “subject-lemma:γραφή verb-lemma:λέγω”. The program found 8 sentences in the New Testament I was looking for. Searching with BibleWorks I got 10 hits. In Logos there are missing: John 7:38; 7:42.

This was the second time I used this feature in Logos and afterwards I checked the results with BibleWorks. In both cases Logos wasn’t able to find any/all instances that I found using much cheaper BibleWorks. It is frustrating to know that Clause Search is not reliable.

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GaoLu

Just a quick glance:

I am not sure why BibleWorks picks up John 7:38;7:42 both of which say (lemma): γραφή εἶπον not γραφή λέγω.

John Fidel

Since BW does not have the capability of running grammatical searches, what morphological search did you use? It may make it easier to compare and contrast.

Placyd Kon

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/654765#Comment_654765

Just a quick glance:

I am not sure why BibleWorks picks up John 7:38;7:42 both of which say (lemma): γραφή εἶπον not γραφή λέγω.

That's right. But εἶπον is an aorist of λέγω.

Placyd Kon

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/654779#Comment_654779

Ok. Now I understand. I should have run this search so: subject-lemma:γραφή verb-root:λεγω.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/654779#Comment_654779

But εἶπον is an aorist of λέγω.

Or is it? (Although that thread did somewhat degenerate after the first few helpful posts.)

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/654806#Comment_654806

But εἶπον is an aorist of λέγω.

Or is it? (Although that thread did somewhat degenerate after the first few helpful posts.)

Funny, I just wanted to link to that thread... it seems that discussion has come up several times over the years.

To summarize the four pages and what other discussions show, the point seems to be that there are very few cases of this issue and different ways to look at that from a linguistic perspective and technical implementation; Logos has decided to follow the lemmatization of BDAG (which usually is regarded as the definitive NT Greek lexicon) and the best way to go is to learn the forms of the few words that have "ersatz"-lemmas in some obscure cases.

Placyd Kon

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/654806#Comment_654806

Thank you, Mark. This helps. The problem is solved.

As I mentioned in my first post, this was the second clause search I got problems with. What about another clause search I tried some time ago? I wanted to find all sentences in the Bible where God as an agent hardens the heart of man.

For the New Testament I tried: “Search clauses in ‘All Passages’ in ‘The Greek New Testament: SBL Edition’ for: ‘subject:God verb:harden’”. One hit in result: Romans 9:18 “So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills”. And I think that there should be at least one more: John 12:40. Although in this sentence, God is not mentioned explicitly, but it is He who is meant there as the agent of hardening. And my understanding is that I should be able to find it using the Clause Search.

For the Old Testament: “Search clauses in ‘All Passages’ in ‘The Lexham Hebrew Bible’ for: ‘subject:God verb:harden’” - I get no hits. After I changed the command: ‘agent:God verb-sense:to harden (make stubborn)’ – 3 instances showed up. And according to Edersheim there should be some more only in the story about Pharaoh.

“Perhaps we ought to mark that ten is the number of completeness. The ten passages in which the hardening is traced to Pharaoh himself are: Ex. 7:13 (“the heart of Pharaoh was firm” or “stiff”); ver. 14 (“was heavy”); ver. 22 (“firm”); 8:15 (“made heavy”); ver. 19 (was “firm”); ver. 32; 9:7, 34 (“heavy”); ver. 35 (“firm”); 13:15 (“Pharaoh made hard,” viz., his heart). The ten passages in which it is traced to the agency of God are: Ex. 4:21; 7:3; 9:12; 10:1, 20, 27; 11:10; 14:4, 8, 17.” (Edersheim, A. (1997). Bible History: Old Testament. Oak Harbor: Logos Bible Software.)

How can I find all these instances using the Clause Search?

Andrew Batishko

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/654913#Comment_654913

How about the following clause search in the LHB: subject:God AND (sense:to harden (make stubborn) OR sense:to make unchanging ⇔ harden)

And this search in SBLGNT: subject:God AND sense:to harden (make stubborn)

I think there is a bug that may be currently fixed in the beta that prevents the first search from working in the SBLGNT.

There might be some other useful senses there to include. Explore the Bible Sense Lexicon for options, or right click on a word in the text and look for the sense on the right side of the context menu (with the little alpha icon).

Placyd Kon

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/654948#Comment_654948

I tried this in LHB: agent:God verb-lemma:קשׁה.1 OR verb-lemma:כבד OR verb-lemma:קשׁח

And this one as well: agent:God AND (verb-lemma:קשׁה.1 OR verb-lemma:כבד OR verb-lemma:קשׁח )

According to the Bible Sense Lexicon, these three Hebrew verbs can mean "to harden (make stubborn)". But I got 0 results.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/654948#Comment_654948

subject:God AND (sense:to harden (make stubborn) OR sense:to make unchanging ⇔ harden)

There's been nothing in the release notes to suggest that clause searches support AND and OR, but OR searches do indeed work now. Did I miss that in an L5 update, or did you miss it in the release notes?

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/655246#Comment_655246

Did I miss that in an L5 update

Yes: https://wiki.logos.com/Logos_5.1a

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/655422#Comment_655422

Yes: https://wiki.logos.com/Logos_5.1a

Darn. That was a whole year ago. I must pay more attention.

Placyd Kon

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/654948#Comment_654948

And this search in SBLGNT: subject:God AND sense:to harden (make stubborn)

It works. And this one as well: agent:God verb-lemma:σκληρύνω OR verb-lemma:πωρόω

So, it works perfectly for the New Testament.

Placyd Kon

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/655538#Comment_655538

It seems to me that the problem is when I put two "OR-s" in the search command. When there is only one "OR" the Clause Search works well.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/656183#Comment_656183

Could you give an example so we can track down any quirkiness?

Placyd Kon

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/656581#Comment_656581

There you go:

Placyd Kon

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/656848#Comment_656848

While searching I discover also other problem. I my understanding the results from the last search should be the sum of the first one and the second, but these following screen shots show that this is not the case, at least not here:

sense:to harden (make stubborn) sense:to make unchanging - harden sense 1 + sense 2

Placyd Kon

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/656858#Comment_656858

And one more. The clause search in “The Old Testament according to the LXX”: “subject:God AND verb-lemma:σκληρύνω” brings 0 results.

NB.Mick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/656183#Comment_656183

It seems to me that the problem is when I put two "OR-s" in the search command. When there is only one "OR" the Clause Search works well.

Yes, this seems to be an issue. To be more precise: more then one OR in the sub-search, such as A AND (X OR Y OR Z) - other searches in Logos allow using lists, but Clause search doesn't know A AND (X, Y, Z), not even with two elements (X, Y).

However, (A OR AND (X OR Y) does work. The other is either bug or partially implemented feature.

For me, there's a probable issue with tagging (or my stupidity) coming in to this.

Coming from Jeremy's explanation of the semantic roles of baptizo as an action with an agent and a theme (which in my limited understanding probably would be called object [someone -agent- does something -the verb- to something] if this wasn't already taken by a grammatical concept), my idea was that love works much the same. It has several Greek lemmas to it, so the OR connector or list comes into play, too.

I wanted to do something like

agent:God (verb-lemma:φιλέω OR verb-lemma:ἀγαπάω)

and was sure about at least one hit, but got no results. It seems that in Jn 3:16 god only gives (such as in agent:God verb-lemma:δίδωμι ), but neither here nor elsewhere in the GNT he (or agent:Jesus) loves. And a search for the two possible themes for "World" that are offered didn't include Jn 3:16 either :-( Maybe I misunderstood these things.