Best resource to understand Torah keeping version of Christianity

Hi, I just spent time with an aquaintance who has in the last 3 years switched from a mainstream evangelical version of Christianity to one where sanctification = keeping the Torah as literally as possible. This is a new one on me and I would like to understand it better as I walk with him.

Does anyone recommend a resource (preferably in a base package I have already...: L4/L5 platinum...) or journal article that unpacks this perspective clearly and concisely?

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Dave Moser

Do you know the name of the particular movement with which your acquaintance is participating? That will make it easier to recommend resources.

(Personally I'd start with Col 2:16-23 and then move to the book of Hebrews.)

David Mitchell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/666531#Comment_666531

I will find out.

Yeah those are the Scriptures I was drawn to in speaking with him.

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/666592#Comment_666592

Please don't make the mistake of equating understanding with "how do I counter his argument". It is more apt to make you look the fool than to convince the other. Did you ask your friend for suggestions?

mab

where sanctification = keeping the Torah as literally as possible

Do you mean justification, rather than sanctification? There are Messianic believers who observe certain Jewish days and the Sabbath as well as certain customs but there is no legal requirement to do so. Nor is there any implied intention for there to be.

I'd be asking more questions. Torah observance isn't the real issue. Even underneath a zealous legal attempt to prove oneself worthy to God is often a heart that really wants to please God. The real lesson of Torah is that we fall short. Ephesians 5:10 points that we should be discerning as to what pleases the Lord.

Asking why people do things is really key. Be a good listener and be praying for discernment.

David Paul

As someone who keeps Tohraah as my proper response to Yeishuu`a Messiah, I want to thank you for reminding me to blow my shohphar tonight for new moon. It wasn't visible in the Land last night due to cloud cover. Which, interestingly, brings up the passage Dave mentioned. If your friend knows his stuff, then he will be able to explain completely how Col. 2 says the exact opposite of what the majority Christian mindset chooses to invest in it. This is displayed by the fact that so many English translations add words to these verses, some even literally replacing words with semantic opposites in order to "make sure" that readers get the "clear meaning" of this passage.

To put it simply, it says and means the exact opposite of what 99+% of Christians (per Col. 2:16 NLT and its erroneous insertion of the word "not") say it means. How? It's pretty basic. When the words Paul speaks are given their most basic meaning, it is inevitable that he is saying don't let those who are not the body of Messiah speak against you for KEEPING the Biblical mandates for food, drink, festivals, new moons, and the Sabbaths (weekly and yearly)...and if they are not keeping them themselves, they most certainly are not His body.

Of course, that is the exact opposite of the take Christianity has assigned to this passage with the help of a few editorial tweaks here and there. Take Col. 2:16 NASB, Col. 2:17 NASB, for instance, where the italicized word "merely" is inserted to denigrate the things described as "shadows". And regarding these shadows, most English translations are not embarrassed at all to change the simple meaning of the Greek in order to change the timing of what is being said so that it more accurately reflects their given systematic theological lines. Thus, rather than the correct rendering ("a shadow of things to come") found in Col 2:17 NKJV, we find instead a mishmash of "adjustments", such as Col. 2:17 NCV, Col. 2:17 NIV, Col. 2:17 HCSB.

The part that no English Bible I know of gets right is the last part of verse 17. The reasons they all fail to translate this correctly run the gamut. Many of the newer translations turn verses 16 & 17 into two different sentences, which makes a proper interpretation impossible. Many translations turn the word "body" into something else, like "substance" (NASB, NKJV, ESV) or "real" or "reality" (NCV, NIV, NLT). This approach is entirely driven by prepackaged theological predispositions determined to diminish the shadows and elevate the truth of Christ. Never mind that one of the benefits of actually having Messiah is the opportunity to dwell in the shadow of His wings.

What is the correct translation? The KJV gets closest to the Greek with Col. 2:17 KJV, acknowledging the italicized "is". What the Greek actually says is "the body of Christ". Sound familiar? It ought to, given that the previous chapter introduces the idea in Col. 1:18. Guess what...that's exactly what is in view here. The key to getting the correct interpretation of these two verses is to use a simple grammatical device you should have learned in high school. Though they provide useful and often necessary and critical information, prepositional phrases can be, indeed, must be, excised to find the core thought of a sentence. In verses 16 & 17, the verses about the shadows are what must be taken out to comprehend the sentence's thrust. What does doing this leave us?

Let no one judge you * but the body of Christ. <----THIS is the fundamental thought of the sentence.

The asterisk represents a series of prepositional phrases and a subordinate clause that functions to elaborate those phrases.

As I pointed out above, "the body of Christ" isn't just whoever wants to call themselves "the body". No, the body is attached to a head and does what the head does. Yeishuu`a kept ALL of these times, these shadows, and they are all still in effect because what they represent HAS NOT been fulfilled. What the church has said for 2000 years, entirely misunderstanding and misapplying Yeishuu`a's "it is finished" comment, is simply false. Yeishuu`a's work on the cross IS NOT the end of His work. If it is and was, you will never see Him again...sorry. He's never coming back, because if He did, He would be working...and that's not allowed. It's done, don'tcha know? Point is, the shadows of the fall festivals won't be and CAN'T be fulfilled until He returns. Saying that they are "done away" because they are merely shadows is the height of ignorance of who YHWH is and what His plan is.

Besides, as the body, we must do what Yeishuu`a did...we have no other option. We must walk as He walked (1 Jn. 2:6), and He kept all of these faithfully, or else the world would have and could have no Savior.

It won't help those who regurgitate the standard Christian responses to appeal to Heb. 10:1, since the author of Hebrews has already explicitly and unequivocally stated that "there remains a keeping of the Sabbath for the people of God" in Heb. 4:9.

Those who want to avoid doing YHWH's will are thrilled to twist these verses into a pass to ignore and avoid His appointed times. So be it.

When you have a chance to speak to your Tohraah-observant friend, Dm, the one who will have some explaining to do will be you.

Please don't make the mistake of equating understanding with "how do I counter his argument". It is more apt to make you look the fool than to convince the other. Did you ask your friend for suggestions?

There was a whole thread about a month ago devoted to "can someone help me find verses to counter a Hebrew Roots perspective". A fellow named Dale Brueggemann included a link to a paper he wrote about the movement where his concluding assessment is "there is no going back to shadow land". The problem with his conclusion is that we--that is, the world--have never left "shadow land". Yeishuu`a's first coming absolutely did not bring an end to the presence and purpose of prophetic shadows. It is absurd to say it did.

Anyway, that whole thread could stand to spend a week or two meditating on MJ's comments. You should do the same. The simple fact is this, Dm. If you want the truth, you can't ever assume you already know the truth. YHWH says explicitly that the plan He is working out will not be understood until the very end. We are getting closer, but the strong delusion and famine of the hearing of the word of YHWH is still in full swing. Your friend may be able to blow away some of the fog, but even as a Tohraah-keeper (whatever that may mean to him), he is still in plenty of it himself. Just don't assume majority rules. The Bible insists otherwise.