V4 is to Logos what Vista is to Windows.
Is it just me or is this new version harder to work with. It is slower, more laggy (if that is a word) and way less customizable. And the whole newspaper "look" is horrid. I know these guys spent a lot of time desiging it but wow after a month or so, I hate to say it but I don't enjoy doing bible study on LOGOS....never thought I would say that. I spent a ton of money with Logos, not just for 4 but other stuff too, and hate to shelf it but I may have to scrap it and go back to 3.
Anyone else feel like I do?
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Not me. I felt that way for the first few days. But after I got the hang of everything, I like L4 much more and really feel like my studies go into a lot more depth with a lot less effort. I dd have some computer glitches in the beginning but after I got that worked out, it's much better for me.
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Nope, runs fine for me and I am living in the Beta running under Fusion, on a MBP. But then Vista's problems were mostly bad press, urban legend and old equipment. So maybe your analogy is correct.
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I agree about Vistas problems....later in it's life but at first before ALL the updates it was pretty bad. I am hoping that is the case with 4.
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my opinion...
Performance has a lot to do with the machine/OS you run it on & whether it is doing indexing or not. I've run it on dual and quad core PC's running Vista, and (if it isn't indexing) am very happy with the experience...I'm doing things in v4 that would be cumbersome in v3.
Regarding the customization, I felt that was a weakness of v3...my reasoning was that for larger collections of resources, you really did need to customize it...a _lot_...and the customization steps were not intuitive to me. They weren't cosmically hard, just not blindly obvious to someone who just wanted to "get to work." I still remember repeatedly pausing/rewinding/unpausing one of the v3 videos that showed (at high speed) how to set up the basic customizations. I never quite got all those customizations right on either of my 2 PC's, and as a result v3 often didn't work the way I wanted it...or consistently on both. I felt that the only way to really use v3 was to attend the training classes that Mr Proctor provided...but they rarely came out to my area. I'm so much happier in v4. There are a few things I'd like to work differently, but on the whole this is the product I thought I was buying when I upgraded to v3.
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DavidWebster said:
Is it just me or is this new version harder to work with. It is slower, more laggy (if that is a word) and way less customizable. And the whole newspaper "look" is horrid. I know these guys spent a lot of time desiging it but wow after a month or so, I hate to say it but I don't enjoy doing bible study on LOGOS....never thought I would say that. I spent a ton of money with Logos, not just for 4 but other stuff too, and hate to shelf it but I may have to scrap it and go back to 3.
Anyone else feel like I do?
I made something of the same analogy early on. I think I might have even compared it to Windows ME, so I smiled as I read this. Initially I thought L4 was a huge mistake.
I've got a pretty fast computer, so I haven't experience the lag that some have. And I was very happy to get the option to not start to the home page (I still rarely look at it). The interface was a shift for me, and at first I had a hard time doing the simplest things. But since I was in the pre-release beta program, I kept at it, and decided to 'make it work.'
A funny thing began to happen: I started going deeper in the Word, and after a while, switching back to Libronix made it feel clunky and awkward.
But go ahead and use L3, if you want. L4 was released early, and without everything complete, with that option in mind. Over time some of the speed issues should be resolved, and we'll get fuller functionality as time goes on. You should even be able to get your new L4 resources into L3. (If you need to know how to do that, ask.)
I don't think it's a 'Vista' vs. 'XP,' at least not any more. But maybe an Office 2007 analogy would work. At first a lot of people hated it. But as time went on, they found it really was easier. That has been my experience with L4. After an adjustment in the way I think about how to do what I want to do, Logos4 is better incomplete than Libronix ever was.
And I own that as total personal opinion -- but that's what you're asking for.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
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DavidWebster said:
Is it just me...
Not just you. I also don't like L4 In fact I asked the same question a while back. I did buy the L4 Gold (cross grade I had L3 Gold) and also bought the CD to get most of the resources into my L3. I open L4 up sometimes to play around but still don't like it. For me L3 is the way to go. I know many love L4 and God bless you I am just glad they made it possible to get the same resources into L3 or I never would have bought it.
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DavidWebster said:
Is it just me or is this new version harder to work with. It is slower, more laggy (if that is a word) and way less customizable. And the whole newspaper "look" is horrid. I know these guys spent a lot of time desiging it but wow after a month or so, I hate to say it but I don't enjoy doing bible study on LOGOS....never thought I would say that. I spent a ton of money with Logos, not just for 4 but other stuff too, and hate to shelf it but I may have to scrap it and go back to 3.
Anyone else feel like I do?
Cant say that I agree.. For about a month I refused to use version 4 because the way my passage guide linked to the commentaries. But since they got it fixed I have been happy with it. Every once in a while I use some features in 3 because 4 does not have it. You are on the ground floor ! Help Logos design it for you... You can let them know through the forum what flaws you believe the system have.. They listen
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I know that they listen, that is why I love the company so much, great people trying to put out the best products they can.
I dont expect perfection but this should still be BETA, IMO. My computer is fast, not crazy fast bot fast. NOTHING else that I run on it takes sooooooooo long to perform. I usually adapt well to "new" programs, Loved Office 7 from the minute it came out. But when Logos takes 4-5 minutes to open, crashes a lot and scrolling thru a book drives you crazy because it lags so bad, i just cant see the benefits.
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I have to agree that I made the same comparison came to mind because of the following points:
steep hardware requirements (the way some people here write about the machines they are thinking about getting it gives me the impression that they are building a gaming system to play the latest video games) and this cannot be good. Talk of Core i7, SSD, and powerful video cards is not encouraging.
The product appears to have been rushed to meet deadlines (ETS and SBL) for understandable business reasons but as a customer I do not necessarily have to like it because it has resulted in a lack of optimization of many of the features including the much dreaded "indexing" that is able to cripple many desktop and most laptop
Like Vista compared to XP, L4 has promising features but it is a trade off where one loses speed and optimization and even a certain level of control for power users.
Like Microsoft, I hope than Logos will understand that it is not realistic to expect that people will have to upgrade their hardware to run L4 (which adds hidden not so cost and is the reason that I cannot recommend L4 as freely as I used to do for L3). Sure power users will do it in a heartbeat , but the rest might just stay away. The success of Windows 7 is in part due to the fact that no one needed to upgrade to run it and it was fast from the get go thus earning a reputation as a fast OS. L4, like vista runs the risk to be perceive as a slow program with heavy hardware requirements. this is a point that Logos will have to address with optimization and marketing.
However, I am hopeful that Logos will do the right this as they listen to their customers and will do what needs to be done
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DavidWebster said:
My computer is fast, not crazy fast bot fast. NOTHING else that I run on it takes sooooooooo long to perform. I usually adapt well to "new" programs, Loved Office 7 from the minute it came out. But when Logos takes 4-5 minutes to open, crashes a lot and scrolling thru a book drives you crazy because it lags so bad, i just cant see the benefits.
David, my wife's 3 year old Dell laptop opens it in half that time. My MBP running Fusion opens it in 15 seconds. Not sure what the problem is with your system, but I think you may want to look somewhere else than Logos.
David, I am not trying to get into a urination contest, but check out this thread on start up times, look at their equipment and look at the start up times. The first guy on the post has a 4-5 year Dell that leaves your stated time in the dust:
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yep, just you. On the right system, it works great.DavidWebster said:Is it just me
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Yup.
It's just you. IMHO I think it's way better than L3.
And obviously I don't feel the same way you do.
sdahlinghwa
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DavidWebster said:
And the whole newspaper "look" is horrid.
You can turn this "newspaper" off. and open the program directly, as I an several others do..
click customise and you can turn it off or restrict content
Never Deprive Anyone of Hope.. It Might Be ALL They Have
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Just you.
God MUST be putting these threads in front of me so that I will learn to have a little patience....[A]
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Having experienced the Logos 4 Black Screen of Death again during Sunday School yesterday, I'm very sympathetic to your characterization. Fortunately, I was able to bring up the task manager, kill Logos4.exe, and start it up before it was my turn to read a passage again.
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Robert Pavich said:
God MUST be putting these threads in front of me so that I will learn to have a little patience....
So Robert, how is that going? [;)]
Personally, I am backsliding. I had vowed not to open the beta one again, but I did, and worse, I got sucked into posting. Oh well, time to roll the rock up the hill again.
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Yes David,
I feel your pain. I find that Logos 4 has great potential, but at the current time is very cumbersome.
Poor performance and basic useability are at the top of the list.
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David,
I think we all agree that Logos 4 is not perfect. But I have not opened Logos 3 since I first upgraded to 4. And I am finding myself getting annoyed that the "other" Bible study program that I have to use (because of invested content) doesn't have some of the features I'm now used to in L4.
And BTW, I'm one of those who happen to like the Home Page.
Peter
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Terry Poperszky said:
So Robert, how is that going?
Well, as you can see..I didn't call the poster a name or tell him to get a refund or shut up... [:D] so there is that!
Seriously, I really have a hard time with one thing; moaning about a situation that's correctable.
I also have a hard time with "ad hominem" that people throw out instead of clear, calm, reasons why they need help with something.
And so....this is a first for me.... [:D]
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Hey David,
I know this has been covered a lot on the forums but have you tried the optimization suggestions on the wiki? I had those same problems you're describing. Turning the tablet input services off and running as administrator solved those problems on my laptop. It was crazy how slow L4 ran before I did that but those two steps made it like a new animal for me. Let me know if I can help you with that. I'd be happy to and I know that a lot of others here would be too. This community of forum users really are helpful.
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Two things really helped my laptop to run Logos 4 better, make sure when ever I can plug it in that I turn the settings to high performance instead of saving batteries, and getting off the internet, when I am using Logos 4. I only go on the internet with Logos 4 to check for updates if there are none, I shut the program down turn off my wi-fi and then fire it up again, you should notice a much quicker start time and for me it allows for smooth scrolling.
In Christ,
Jim
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JimVanSchoonhoven said:
I turn the settings to high performance
Where do you change these settings? I have win7 and xp.
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Ken F Hill said:
Where do you change these settings? I have win7 and xp.
I believe Jim is referring to the power settings on his laptop that run the CPU and a lower speed in order to extend battery life. They would be found under the control panel.
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I agree with you that Logos 4 does seem to be less responsive and more sluggish. I have left my laptop setup up on 3.0g just because of that. However my desktop has a lot more memory and is a much faster system so it doesn't seem to be an issue. If nothing else, perhaps they should change the minimum requirements. I can't imagine trying to run Logos 4 on a system with any less than dual core processor and 2 gig of memory.
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I read the posts with name calling, anger, frustration, and accusations and honestly grieve for the state of the Church. Having access to books is not the same as being led by the Spirit. Here is the passage I often think about to keep my own perspective.Robert Pavich said:Seriously, I really have a hard time with one thing; moaning about a situation that's correctable.
“The words of the wise are like goads, and like nails firmly fixed are the collected sayings; they are given by one Shepherd. My son, beware of anything beyond these. Of making many books there is no end, and much study is a weariness of the flesh. The end of the matter; all has been heard. Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the whole duty of man. For God will bring every deed into judgment, with every secret thing, whether good or evil. ” (Ecclesiastes 12:11–14, ESV)
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Learning curves can defeat even expert users. But once you stumble onto a configuration that works for you, you will wonder how you could EVER have questioned L4. It is nearly miraculous in speeding up Bible study if you do original language exegesis.
None of the training videos actually show it exactly he way I use it, but find some layout that links a SECOND Bible WIndow to the Exegesis Guide and kill some of the included elements. Leave the first Bible Window unlinked so that jumps to references don't trigger the Exegetical Guide to repopulate the data. Then drill down to Word Studies through the Exegetical Guide Word for Word component.
Then Save that layout and Save it again when you take breaks--naming it separately for each study topic or passage you are doing.
Even a slow 5 year old 512MB tablet (running either XP or Windows7) can do the above operations fast enough to keep up with any scholar's rapier like mind and the brilliant insights that this tool helps him or her generate.
Phil
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PhilFaris said:
but find some layout that links a SECOND Bible WIndow to the Exegesis Guide and kill some of the included elements. Leave the first Bible Window unlinked so that jumps to references don't trigger the Exegetical Guide to repopulate the data. Then drill down to Word Studies through the Exegetical Guide Word for Word component.
That's what I do...and I think there is at least one video that does show this..that's where I got the idea.... [:D]
Robert Pavich
For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__
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Im still working on getting use to version 3....[:S]
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Not "just you" obviously, as others are struggling as well.
For me, it has made my preaching better as it shortened the amount of time I spend in research, while getting way more information.
Also, I am enjoying my bible study more, I keep getting sucked into little trails that have been fun.
L3 just was not nearly as helpful to me.
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DavidWebster said:
Is it just me or is this new version harder to work with. It is slower, more laggy (if that is a word) and way less customizable.
I had purchased version 3 just 1 week prior to version 4 came out, so I can't compare. What I can say is that the interface is incredibly laggy for me on a system with the specs you can see in my signature. My guess is that the lagginess is due to the manner in which the various windows created by Logos are managed. Certain operations, such as clicking on a drop-down list have a 3-5 second latency at time, and while waiting, I'll see various windows updating their display and/or contents. I have found that if I create a very simple window layout with just a couple of resources open, the latency issues are drastically mitigated. My feeling is that Logos will eventually work out the resource contention issues in the fullness of time. I believe based on the number of bugs and the general performance issues that Logos released this product way before it was 'game-ready.' Hopefully the infusion of capital that they've gotten from the Logos 4 sales will enable them to allocate the necessary resources to bringing the software to its full potential.
Matt
Specs:
Windows 7 x64
Quad Xeon 2.83 GHz x2
16GB RAM
Nvidia 285 GTX 1GB VRAM
Logos 4.1 Platinum, SR-3, indexed0 -
I agree, Logos 4 (in its current state) is a several steps backwards from Logos 3.
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tom collinge said:
I agree, Logos 4 (in its current state) is a several steps backwards from Logos 3.
YMMV, obviously.... I felt the same as a beta tester in early Nov. I posted then that the main obstacle to my use of L4 was going to be L3--how good it already is. But the longer I use it, the more I find I prefer it... even though I current work with both apps open. I use L3 where L4's dependence on a techology that makes it hard for me to use the touchpad. I also use it for CBV, since I'm usually starting from a Scripture reference in Word. But I'm finding that I just LIKE L4 more & more. I prefer to work in it as it's capable of supporting me--despite current warts (& there obviously are some!).
And there are some things I CAN'T (couldn't ever) do in L3.
I'd encourage you at least to keep your toes in the L4 waters, if only to be able to determine when it's ready for your use.
Hang in there....
Beta 4 of 4.0b is looking pretty good. I'm betting 4.0b won't be long... and they're making rapid progress on their to-do list.
Blessings!
Grace & Peace,
Bill
MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
iPad 9th Gen iOS 15.6, 256GB0 -
BillS said:
I'd encourage you at least to keep your toes in the L4 waters, if only to be able to determine when it's ready for your use.
Thanks Bill, I am planning to keep my toes in the water. As a mater of fact, I download the current v4 "beta" version because it imports the notes that we have in v3.
Before I followed God's call into the ministry, I was a software developer and a project manager for a MAJOR software developer. Rule #1 for upgrades, you do not take away the functionality that your users are currently using. Rule #2: You never force your users to redo their work because of your upgrade. If you ask me, Logos broke these simple and basic rules when it comes to v4.
I simply cannot do what I need to do what I need to do in v4.
BillS said:Beta 4 of 4.0b is looking pretty good. I'm betting 4.0b won't be long... and they're making rapid progress on their to-do list
I realize that this is in "beta," and I am only looking at this because it can import my v3 notes, but I am not happy with it. #1 - it did not import all of my notes (probably a 'beta' thing), and #2 - my note files have somewhere between 150 - 300 entries, and each entry consists of a couple of pages of data. Because the left column is no longer available (at lest I cannot find it - a v4 thing), I now cannot find what I need in my notes file.
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tom collinge said:
Before I followed God's call into the ministry, I was a software developer and a project manager for a MAJOR software developer. Rule #1 for upgrades, you do not take away the functionality that your users are currently using. Rule #2: You never force your users to redo their work because of your upgrade. If you ask me, Logos broke these simple and basic rules when it comes to v4.
Hi Tom,
I hear you. My background is similar. To begin my calling as a 2nd career pastor, I retired as deputy director of Computer Aided Engineering in Boeing Conmercial Info Systems--an organization of about 4500 folks at the point I retired. I came up through the ranks, starting as a CAD/CAM programmer. You're correct on Rules 1 & 2 when it's an upgrade. But L4 isn't an upgrade. It's a ground up rewrite.
Logos' provision for rule 1 was to release all the new L4 content in L3, also, so that continued use of L3 enabled all current functionality until L4 was ready to take over. They've done that. If you have L4 content you'd like to use in L3, check the Logos blog for the scripts to download L3 equivalent resources.
Logos provision for rule 2 was the same. Keep using L3 if it forces a redo of work.
Finally, they're using a different development methodology to ensure that L4 (as it continues to be fleshed out) even better meets user requirements than did L3. (Check out Bradley's post in this thread: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/10026/79537.aspx#79537.) Keeping yout toes in the water will enable you to help ensure it meets your requirements.
Many blessings to you,
Bill
Grace & Peace,
Bill
MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
iPad 9th Gen iOS 15.6, 256GB0
