misguided post - carry on
It would be great to pray for Logos!
they may be guided by God
Personally, I might leave the prayer there. God might not want them to serve their customers in a new and bold way [:)]. (I'm not saying He does, or doesn't. I don't know. But perhaps it's better not to presume too much what God might want.)
Something that might help the mental health of everyone on these boards, and all users of Logos --
Logos is a business, not a ministry.
It is guided by God as any other business would be, and managed, for maximum profit, as any other business is. Again, Logos is a business, not a ministry. The sooner we get past thinking that Bob and crew are "doing this all for our spiritual benefit," and the sooner we get to, "Bob and crew are doing this for their paycheck," the sooner we'll get to a more realistic view of what Logos does, and how it works as a company.
Sorry to be the wet blanket this morning, but MAC fanboys aren't being realistic, Unix/Linux fanboys aren't being realistic, Microsoft fanboys aren't being realistic, and Logos fanboys aren't being realistic. When Logos provides value, I buy more products. When they don't, or when they run in a direction that reduces the usefulness of their product, or goes in a direction I think will make it less useful, I buy less (as I am currently doing). When there are bugs or inconsistencies in the software, then I say something about it. These forums shouldn't be cheerleading efforts, they should be honest and frank discussions.
I'm not trying to be mean, but -- it's a business, not a ministry.
:-)
Russ
Michael,
actually I do pray for Logos and their users (not at a regular schedule like you suggested, though).
But I'm not sure if I want to follow in prayer into the direction your text seems to lead. Maybe as an ESL person I'm misreading this, but you seem to pray not for, but against Faithlife and their employees and to imply a currently existing very negative profile of Bob and his team of employees. It is fully okay to ask God for wisdom and courage for anybody, but the way you phrased this (especially asking for humility for someone you seem to disagree with) is - in my reading - bordering on using the name of the Lord in an argument in vain.
You could edit your post to give it a clearer message.
Mick
NB: If Bob and the other forum-writing employees weren't already to a good extent fearless and bold, they'd delete such threads as this and many other critical ones, or not have an open forum in the firstplace.
I think Bob and everyone else does an outstanding job already. I don't really understand the complaints and frustrations and I'm not posting this to invite a list of complaints. I just wanted Bob and the other employees to read some positive review alongside of the negative. My only hope for Faithlife is that it keeps going, but even if it doesn't I have received enough use and value from my resources already to justify the expense.
I'm LOVING Logos 6 and looking forward to Logos 7!
I think Bob and everyone else does an outstanding job already. ... I have received enough use and value from my resources already to justify the expense. I'm LOVING Logos 6 and looking forward to Logos 7!
I think Bob and everyone else does an outstanding job already. ... I have received enough use and value from my resources already to justify the expense.
[Y] Although might be happy to wait 3 years for Logos 7...
Anyway, there is a question, how much automation do we want. Should we have one button sermon-generator, robotic preachers for the churches, and drones doing the overseas missions?? [^o)]
Yet the underlying philosophy that guides the company has not changed
https://www.logos.com/about/hoagies
Whilst I hear what you are saying and is worth remembering - I can't see why it cannot be considered both - at least by those the own and work in Faithlife. And imagine that many there do - in fact from the business decisions they make we can see clear signs of both being actively at work in the mind and motivations of the staff their.
Yes they primary responsibility is to "feed their families" etc. and remain in business actively and successfully - we wouldn't expected anything else. But profit pure and simple - I certainly hope not!
Shalom.
1 This is the chronicle of the many and diverse wanderings of the Logosites, whom BOB delivereth from the bondage of Slow Searches, and of ink and paper. And he was raised as a Prince in the Kingdom of Microsoft, until LOGOS calleth him from a burning hard drive.
2 The cries of the people came before BOB, saying, "Our Software groweth old. Take us to the Promised Software, that which is called 4.0!"
3 For many months, moaneth and whineth they for deliverance; that they may partaketh of the Software of Milk and Honey, that their Searches may be Rapid in the Land. And BOB leadeth them toward 4.0
4 But lo, they liketh not dwelling in the Wilderness, and suddenly 3.0 looketh not so bad anymore. For the Great Indexing, yea, it weareth upon their nerves, and their Collections, they findeth them not, nor did their Key Links functioneth, and their Customizations and Notes and Workspaces, they worketh not, for forty days and forty nights, when prophecies foretelleth a coming Update, yea, with MANY fixes.
5 But the Logosites waiteth not, yea, even a few hours; for they stormeth the Lines of Customer Service, and they crieth out once again unto BOB, saying, "We liketh not the wilderness, and the Great Indexing, it lasteth longer than Methuseleh's Home Movies. Taketh us back to 3.0!"
6 And BOB saith, "Um, it's still on your hard drive."
7 And behold, BOB sendeth the Testers of Beta as SPIES into the New Software. And lo, they stealthily approacheth it, and they saith, "Lo, it is ELEGANT. Its Home Page is Comely. Truly it is a land of Milk and Honey and Quick Searches, lo, Even in point-six five seconds; but there are Giant Bugs in the Land! And Customer Support helpeth us not in fighting these Bugs, even though we moaneth and waileth into our iPhones, and remindeth them of much gold we payeth through our Cards of Credit! And lo, speaketh of iPhones, that's another thing! Our FREE iPhone Apps haveth only two thousand BOOKS available, but these FREE Apps lacketh some of our BOOKS, though we once giveth much gold for them. And on the Hard Drives of our iPhones wanteth us these many BOOKS from our FREE Apps, and in no wise on the Internet."
8 And many other utterances were their moanings and whinings, and they beseecheth BOB to go back to 3.0.
9 And BOB, rolleth he his EYES, and he saith, "Um, it's still on your hard drive."
10 And LOGOS, it waiteth Forty Years before releasing 5.0, though the People crieth out for it.
Thus endeth the lesson.
http://www.robsuggs.com
Whilst I hear what you are saying and is worth remembering - I can't see why it cannot be considered both - at least by those the own and work in Faithlife.
Logos sees themselves as a business, not a ministry:
But it's important to understand that seeing themselves as a business does not mean they only care about profit. The distinction isn't that simple.
While I don't oppose praying for Logos, I think that perhaps the idea is somewhat misguided. Prayer is not some magic wand that we wave over something to effect a change. What is mostly changed by prayer is ourselves. Perhaps we need to change our attitude concerning a few things, including Logos.
It has been stated in this thread, as well as elsewhere, that Logos is not a ministry but a business. A reply has been made that it could be both. I think that is nearer the truth. While it is primarily a business, it also ministers in the process of going about carrying out that business. I immediately thought about a Chick-fil-A franchise where during a not too distant snowstorm where many were stuck for hours on the highway took meals to those who had been stuck in the snow and gave them away free. That is ministry in doing business. Logos does something similar on a regular basis. I propose that, while we don't cease making suggestions regarding things which we would like improved about the program, we should be thankful that there is a company such as Logos doing this job and meanwhile putting up with all our crap.
Selah
Yes, always a business, but perhaps this is an unnecessarily hard distinction. George Somsel puts the thought well in the second paragraph of his post.
It is guided by God as any other business would be, and managed, for maximum profit, as any other business is.
The impetus need not be profit, though profits be necessary, the desire to create and/or to serve are often the motive to build a business.
I am offering to pray every weekday at noon central time (US) for Bob, his company, the employees
I can agree with you to pray. I will leave it up to God for the results he desires.
...and... George Somsel is right.
Geez, controversy even over prayer. If you are having a good experience with Logos, great. But, many are not and are frustrated. When I am frustrated, when I need hope, when things are out of my hands, I turn in prayer. Even if it is misguided, the Holy Spirit will make it perfect. If it is not the will of the Lord, then no harm done and I further pray that He would convict me of such and even guide my prayers. I certainly do not do it out of selfishness or against anything or anyone. I am not trying to tell you how to pray. It was just a hopeful suggestion. The power of many praying has resulted in incredible things in my experience. While prayer does change the prayer, I have personally seen it change the world and people around me. I am sure I am not the only one with a prayer journal filled with the record of answered prayer.
I do pray for ministries, however I do also pray for businesses. I pray for the local businesses in my community and the people that run them, the leaders in this community, the country I live in, even the world. The Lord values humility. He speaks highly of it in His word. It is a great thing. Should we not value it for all, particularly those in places of authority whether ministry, business, or civic.
I think there is a ministry element to it. Even Bob, if you will recall, used "serving the church" as a reason for the proposition of a dating site.
I was just trying to be positive in light of so much frustration that I have read in the forums the past couple of months. I believe prayer if powerful and it is what I go to. What a shame the attitude has gotten to assume everything is critical.
I wish I could delete this thread. [:'(]
I wish I could delete this thread.
That's OK; we know your heart's in the right place (We'll send an Aztec priest to rip it out). [;)]
It must be a mix of both -- often in the Christian world, we fail to see profits as a service. Two points --
First, I don't see people posting on GM forums that we should pray for GM, or other forums saying we should pray for those businesses. I'm happy Logos is out there, doing what they do, just as I'm happy Chick-fil-A is out there, doing what they do, and many other companies.
Second, what gets tiresome to me is the constant harping on how great Logos is in the forums. We shouldn't be focused on how horrible they are, or how saintly they are -- we should be focused on the product, how to use it, thoughts about future directions, and exposing areas where it can be better.
If you'd like to delete the thread, clicking the 'More' button in your original post should let you do that, I think.
I agree with you that prayer is powerful. I think the reason that many assumed your post was critical is that when you say things like "I pray that… they will be struck with humility and not possessed by a pride" it does tend to suggest that you think at the moment they are possessed by a pride. If that wasn't your intention, then I'm sorry for misunderstanding you — although I'm obviously not the only one. Clear communication online isn't always easy.
In a few words! I believe that Faithlife/Logos does have a ministry component to it, although not officially documented for various reasons. I, also believe that we are in much better business hands, doing business with a company that seeks to be guided by GOD (documented or undocumented) than doing business with a business where "I" is the only guiding principle. These undocumented things show up in the personality of the company. That said, I am comfortable with Bob and Faithlife, even with the various bugs, missing documentation, and such.
The prayer for Bob, his employees, and Faithlife goes out at several times, as well as the prayer goes out for companies where "I" is the guiding principle. The prayer is different though, for a company in which I feel that I have a good relationship with, than the prayer that I have for a company that seeks to through me under the bus. A prayer of prosperity and peace for the one, and a prayer of "Fix this, Lord" or "Get them, Lord" for the other.
A little more than a few words, but that's my thoughts.
I hope you don't.
Clear communication online isn't always easy.
JAL:The impetus need not be profit, though profits be necessary, the desire to create and/or to serve are often the motive to build a business. It must be a mix of both -- often in the Christian world, we fail to see profits as a service.
JAL:The impetus need not be profit, though profits be necessary, the desire to create and/or to serve are often the motive to build a business.
It must be a mix of both -- often in the Christian world, we fail to see profits as a service.
Yes - this is often the case.
Pursuing further I came across this:
Profit needs to be the first priority or you will not have a chance to pursue any others.
http://firesomeonetoday.com/profit_is_why_you_are_in_business.html
Two points -- First, I don't see people posting on GM forums that we should pray for GM, or other forums saying we should pray for those businesses. I'm happy Logos is out there, doing what they do, just as I'm happy Chick-fil-A is out there, doing what they do, and many other companies. Second, what gets tiresome to me is the constant harping on how great Logos is in the forums. We shouldn't be focused on how horrible they are, or how saintly they are -- we should be focused on the product, how to use it, thoughts about future directions, and exposing areas where it can be better.
Two points --
As to point one, I think this is sadly too true. A call to prayer would occasionally be appropriate to the circumstances of GM and all other businesses and the people which comprise them.
On point two, I find a response difficult to compose. I will simply say that I agree with you about Logos and the cloud - and with much of what I've seen you observe about the cloud generally.
I know that there are problems with Faithlife software. Some of these problems are of great concern to me. There are also elements of design which aggravate me personally. I rely on the open communication in community.logos.com to contend with the problems and to find consolation for what aggravates me.
Perhaps -- but I tend to pray for people, not for companies. I would pray for a church, and I would pray for an organization under attack for its worldview, but not, "Please guide GM in coming out with a better car next year." I just don't know if I see that as something to do (?).
Overall, I think Logos is good software. Not perfect, nor even excellent, but good. I don't take this personally, any more than I take it personally when someone does build something I consider excellent. I suppose, as an engineer and author, I detach personality (to some degree) and respect for people from their work -- maybe more than I actually should, in fact. But, my point is not ever to beat up on Bob, or anyone at Logos, nor to treat them like rock stars (we have enough of that in the Church already). Rather, it's just to look at the product as it stands, see where I think things can be improved (not marking old editions), and where I think the company is running off the rails in some specific area (privacy).
I don't take it personally either way, for good or bad.
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