Why did Joseph and Mary stay in Bethlehem for 2+ years after Jesus was born?
Comments
-
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
0 -
David Ames said:
George Somsel said:
Except that Matthew says that they fled to Egypt.
Question: In first century middle east would you want to travel with a new baby [40 days old or so] or with a 2 year old?
Want and need are two separate things. The text doesn't present a picture that the holy family thought they would go on a vacation to Egypt—they were fleeing for safety. Also, it allowed Matthew to connect them with the tradition of the Exodus ("Out of Egypt …").
george
gfsomselיְמֵי־שְׁנוֹתֵינוּ בָהֶם שִׁבְעִים שָׁנָה וְאִם בִּגְבוּרֹת שְׁמוֹנִים שָׁנָה וְרָהְבָּם עָמָל וָאָוֶן
0 -
Rich DeRuiter said:
Technically this is a discussion not directly related to how to use Logos, it's a discussion about something in the Bible itself (for which we can use Logos to research, I admit). It should go to the ChristianDiscourse discussion forum.
But short, non-controversial topics are often tolerated on these forums, especially if they illustrate how to use the software. This discussion does not seem controversial.
Okay, now this discussion is getting off-topic (of the off-topic discussion) and becoming a debate about how to interpret (real or alleged) discrepancies between narrative accounts. Such debates are not welcome by either Logos (according to their policy) or the majority of the users of this forum (in my experience).
Forum Guidelines: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/10072.aspx
No Theological Debates: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/35165.aspx
As a fellow user of these forums, I'm asking that those who wish to pursue this further, please take this discussion to ChristianDiscourse.com.
Help links: WIKI; Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)
0 -
Actually Matthew says they want to eat you up after the magi visited. Luke says that they went to Nazareth after the temple dedication and purification sacrifice. Two different events.
0 -
I think it was just a lousy real estate market took forever to sell their house.
0 -
Whyndell Gizzard said:
I think it was just a lousy real estate market took forever to sell their house.
[Y] BTDT
0 -
I think some threads are best off locked, like abandoned houses.
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
0 -
Thank you for your very informative post. A few points may please be considered, though it is very late.
1. Distance between Jerusalem (Herod's place) and Bethlehem may take 2 to 3 days of travel for wise men. Herod may not have the patience to wait for more than 1 year or so, as he has felt threatened of his position already. So it is likely that the wise men have traveled for more than 1 year before reaching Jerusalem.
2. "Born king of Jews" can be viewed as the next person born to take up Kingship e.g. born to conquer.
3. In Taxilla (olden India, todays Pakistan), there was a belief before Islamic era that the wise men passed through that place. Thomas also visited that place in 60 AD., met King Gondophores. The only university at that period in the East was Taxilla University, where wise men from all east were present. Taxilla University was established in 600 BCE and continued till 500 CE. Thomas further came down to India (west coast) to meet Jews there, established 7 churches in Kerala, one half church, one in Anuradhapura, Srilanka and 1 in Chennai, East coast .
We saw his star rise in the East, Herod asking for exact time of the star, more than 1 year travel for 4000 km distance, existence of only University at that time, being with circle of relatives till child grows up...all somehow coincides with 2 years..
Please google and see, you may get more insights and also feel free to mention if I am wrong..
0 -
Bob Fuller said:
the visit of the magi at the house where they were could easily have been very close to the shepherd's visit - a matter of a few days (likely after his presentation in the temple).
What if the "star" appeared at the moment of the Birth? Add some time while they examined what that "star" ment. Add some time while they planed and got ready for their journey. Add some time while they traveled from most likely Babylon to Jerusalem. That they arrived in time for Jesus second birthday seems reasonable to me. [Also the word: "Child" not "baby" nor "infant"]
Also who had to register for the census? Every one or just the property owners so Rome would know who to tax? Did Joseph own a home in Bethlehem? And was it rented out so that there was no room for him in his own house?
0 -
Bryan S. said:
So the wise men had LESS THAN FORTY DAYS to visit Jesus in Bethlehem, or He would have been gone to Jerusalem. After that, He would have been back in Nazareth for a short time, and then in Egypt for a period of time.
Question: How far is it from Bethlehem to Jerusalem? [[Answer: about 5 miles]] They would not have had to MOVE to Jerusalem only walked to the Temple and then returned home to Bethlehem after the Ceremony.
Next question: Did Luke cover everything? [John admits that he did not cover everything.] Did Luke perhaps not know of the time in Egypt? Mathew traveled with Jesus. Paul did not. Luke joined Paul some time latter. Mathew had the opportunity to question or hear the stories that Mary told. Luke did not have that opportunity. Assuming that Luke did interview Mary - How thoroughly did he question "the mother of his Lord"?
Bryan S. said:The passage says the wise men asked, “Where is he that is born King of the Jews?” They were looking for the King that was newly born. They were not looking for a two year old boy.
Is not one 'born to be king' still 'born to be king' many many years after his birth?
0 -
The text of Matthew 3:11 says the Magi saw a "child" (παιδίον) not a "baby" (βρέφος) as in Luke 2:16. I think that, along with much other circumstantial evidence, makes it most natural to understand that they remained in Jerusalem several years. Just my opinion.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0 -
I always assumed St. Joseph found work while St. Mary was recovering from childbirth. Maybe they made plans to stay if he did well enough?
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0 -
"HAD LESS THAN FORTY DAYS..."?
Hm..The fact mentioned that Mary offered the offering of the poor (Luke 2:24). If she had received previously the gifts of the Magi, particularly the gold, we may suppose that she would have used it to provide a better offering.0 -
Mike Childs said:
The text of Matthew 3:11 says the Magi saw a "child" (παιδίον) not a "baby" (βρέφος) as in Luke 2:16.
personally, I don’t find this argument convincing and is at best inconclusive, as I think it assumes a level of technical precision in the Greek that is just not there. A child may be a baby as much a baby may be a child.
—-
My own view is that each position has strengths and weaknesses forming an unresolvable tension this side of new creation. And since neither position has any significance doctrinal impact (only effecting the reading of a tiny portion of Luke and Matthew, I see no point in being hardline about it. I’m in the evangelical minority who believe that the Magi visited Jesus as a newborn baby - mainly disagree And that’s fine by me.
Carpe verbum.
0 -
Wow 6 years and another thread gets resurrected. It allows me to time travel 🧭 🧳 in my mind of course 😂 no secret watches or time machines.
0 -
Liam Maguire said:
My own view is that each position has strengths and weaknesses forming an unresolvable tension this side of new creation. And since neither position has any significance doctrinal impact (only effecting the reading of a tiny portion of Luke and Matthew, I see no point in being hardline about it. I’m in the evangelical minority who believe that the Magi visited Jesus as a newborn baby - mainly disagree And that’s fine by me.
I certainly agree with your statement that "I see no point in being hardline about it." I do find the use of "child" (παιδίον) to be more convincing that you, but not conclusive, I agree. But with the other details in Matthew, I think it unlikely that there was a quick return to Nazareth after the birth.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley0