So, who else has found L9 to be a bit...underwhelming?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129298#Comment_1129298

Well, since you're asking, yes. But that's only because I really like L7.

But just watching the party, it seems to me FL rolled out big possibilities (ie built a lot of prep-code). The counciling will fill in. A lot of less knowledgable Bible study'ers will click away at the Factbook. And some of what they set up in OL really has some fascinating possibilities.

I agree, online preaching missed the target. But ... it sure would integrate into Proclaim nicely? And member's smart phones all around the world?

I think it's hope in Bellingham, while overcoming Covid struggles.

Allen Browne

I feel a bit let down with Logos 9. Perhaps Logos 8 was simply that good of an upgrade.

That's the problem with the hype surrounding a new version, I guess, Christopher. It's the balance between creating expectations that aren't met, verses pointing out the considerable amount of additional functionality in the new version.

I am what you'd call "an old timer," and my first reaction when L9 downloaded, was, "Excellent, that's the familiar interface I know and love. I can just keep using it for the work I'm doing, and discover the new stuff as I go." Since then, I've been exploring Factbook, the Bible Books Explorer, the Counseling Guide, and the way commentaries can be identified by era or denomination in the Passage Guide, with a peek at the Sermon Builder and Sermon Manager. Oh, and I've also bought a couple of the new L9 base packages that suited my budget with dynamic pricing.

So, like you say, it's a good, solid update with the familiar interface. That's about right for me.

MJ. Smith

Nothing really creative or innovative like I saw in the transition to Logos 8.

Interesting as I saw Logos 8 as a "loser" in comparison to previous releases - one that built develop dead ends into itself. But I see Logos 9 as having built an infrastructure that can easily provide more goodies for several years as well as providing a huge step forward in integration of tool. My biggest regret is that they have yet to include the Bible Explorer in the integration - and its a tool that has great potential for the average non-professional user.

JoshInRI

Great post. Those of us who helped beta test the new "iteration" of Logos were also underwhelmed except for the updates to Factbook.

As most know I continue to be concerned (I will be charitable here) about how the software becomes more and more complex and is imho useless in a group bible study.

My wife says they need a whole Logos for Dummies menu and functionality revamp.

Hard work was done on this latest update but I for one join you in considering L9 NOT a major update at all.

Did I jump on the bandwagon and update? Yes.

Buyers remorse? Some but an update to factbook is something versus nothing.

Logos bought and incorporated its only real competitor imho - Wordsearch (which seemed to offer much cheaper books at lower prices) but didnt seem to adopt its simpler approach to Bible study. I still continue to believe developers never ever sit in a bible study and try to use the software in the real world. I know for certain they would scoff at the mere suggestion. Still I must be grateful for what is offered...a rushed-to-release-something venture during Covid that has some small things worth celebrating. My advice...hire some newbies to use the software and take careful notes Faithlife. It will be eye opening for you.

Thanks for your great post. I hope they ask you to be a beta tester. Encourage them to keep doing a great job but consider revamping the software from the ground up. Watch the fur fly then : )

PetahChristian

And the Counseling Guide - I've put several entries into it, and the majority of them only pulled information from the "quick guide" series of Counseling that comes with the L9 Base package. I've bought multiple library expansions of counseling resources, and it doesn't seem to be consulting them.

Here is the list of resources that the Counseling Guide currently pulls information from.

Note that it requires specific tagging to have been done, which is why the guide doesn't presently find information from every counseling resource you have.

FL plans to continue tagging more counseling resources to make the guide more useful. If you have specific resource suggestions, feel free to add them to that thread!

Simon’s Brother

As I am not a preacher and do not prepare lessons there are aspects of Logos 9 that the marketing team are pumping up that have no interest to me. I am quite happy there are no major innovations you seem to be looking for. Logos 8 was a disaster iMHO too much was changed with it being only partly developed and really should not have been put in a production version, Logos 8 ruined the way I approached bible study because of the notes tool and highlighting changes being implemented before they were ready for everyday use. FL used us for ongoing testing of incomplete code.

Without those major innovative changes and what was not ready when Logos 8 was released now much better developed I can get back to settling on a new routine of how I use the software for my personal bible study and exploration of topics that interest me.

PetahChristian

Those of us who helped beta test the new "iteration" of Logos were also underwhelmed except for the updates to Factbook.

Josh, please don't make blanket statements about the beta testers' impression of L9.

David Wanat

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129298#Comment_1129298

My wife says they need a whole Logos for Dummies menu and functionality revamp.

I’d buy Logos for Dummies if they made it

Mark Smith

Christopher, sorry you are a little disappointed, but remember that Faithlife is committed to a 6 week upgrade cycle, and so we will see improvements and (perhaps) even some new features along the way.

FL has made a lot of efforts to be more user friendly. The Guides, Workflows, sample layouts, the Go bar, Interactives, Search Templates, and Factbook are all additions with the purpose of making this rather complex software easier to use. The work that has been done on Factbook for L9 is another push in this direction. I think it has the chance to be transformative of the Logos experience at some point.

The focus on sermon preparation and delivery and counselling are an obvious nod to one of their major user groups. In the past I did not use sermon builder, but I am giving it a second look with the improvements they've made.

In L9 FL has focused on enhancing what they have already created (plus a few new things). It is more updating that offering things that are new. They continue to make working in Logos easier and getting things done or finding information less burdensome. I am happy with this even without a blockbuster new tool or other capability.

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129329#Comment_1129329

As a pastor and seminarian I am pretty happy with it.

I like the factbook. I don't think it will ever be complete... BUT. I read bi-weekly updates, which means its always going to be pressing forward. Its already been helpful on a few topics. A couple clicks, and I have the information that I was looking for. It represents actual AND hopefull better access to information going forward.

The sermon manager is a nice feature. I'm putting papers for classes in there too... I still print my notes, and bring them up into the pulpit with me, but we don't really have internet at church, so that is what it is.

I'm interested to see where the new OL tools take me. I've had quite a bit of greek (5-6 semesters - 1 at the college level and the rest at the seminary level). But barely any hebrew. Hoping these tools will refresh my hebrew, and keep my greek fresh.

Not to mention the denomination data from the community collection rule project being incorporated into some of the searches.

All in all I'm quite happy. Quite happy.

But then I think this release was perhaps targeted to pastors. No insider info. But thats how it feels to me.

abondservant

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129298#Comment_1129298

were also underwhelmed except for the updates to Factbook.

Your post is at best unwise Josh.

Simon’s Brother

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129318#Comment_1129318

My wife says they need a whole Logos for Dummies menu and functionality revamp.

I’d buy Logos for Dummies if they made it

It’s called Morris Procter A-Z Video reference library but you need to be a monthly subscriber as the content updates as the software changes.

A physical dummies book or DVD of training videos would be out or date sooner than later.

John W

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129338#Comment_1129338

I'm very pleased with L9. This iteration as the others is a help to my bible study and growth in the Lord and ministry to others (maybe not as much as another upgrade along the way but I'm grateful for any improvements they make). I love how it maximizes my time as I study. I greatly appreciate too FL's proactivity in making sure we are getting the most out of the software with all the free training continually offered. And the gracious spirit I pick up from FL in providing free or greatly reduced price resources on a regular basis.

SineNomine

Don't get me wrong, there are some good things here... but it seems like most of these things are simply Quality of Life changes

My memory is biased, but I think there was a lot of "We need QoL changes"-type feedback shortly after L8 came out.

Nothing really creative or innovative like I saw in the transition to Logos 8.

Also a lot fewer bug reports and disgruntled people on the forums this time around, so there is that trade off. I think the Sermon/Homily Manager is a huge new feature to people who will use it.

For example, why do you have to restart the whole program to apply the dark mode theme, and do the same to get it back to light mode?

Basically because with the amount of programming it would have taken before launch to do that, they could build multiple other smaller features from scratch. And they weren't sure how many people would care. I, for one, have turned Dark Mode on... and I don't ever intend to turn it off, except maybe for bug testing purposes or something.

And what's with the "preaching mode" loading in a web browser, so that you can't enter preaching mode unless you are online? Seriously? Why did anyone ever think this was a good idea? What's the advantage of this? Why would it not just load in the program itself?

Their surveys of people who preach clearly indicated that most who preach from devices don't do so from laptops. You can vote for this feature upgrade here: https://feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/744

And the Counseling Guide - I've put several entries into it, and the majority of them only pulled information from the "quick guide" series of Counseling that comes with the L9 Base package. I've bought multiple library expansions of counseling resources, and it doesn't seem to be consulting them. Kinda felt like just a basic search through this quick reference guide. Also, at least for the topics I searched, most had NO bible verses associated. When I looked up "sexual desire", it only had four verses, and none were from the Song of Solomon. Really? We aren't pointing to the SOS when counseling patients with issues of sexual desire? Honestly, it just feels shallow.

Like the revolutionary Logos 8's Theology Guide, the Counseling Guide was released with minimal initial tagging, which will be improved rapidly.

Perhaps Logos 8 was simply that good of an upgrade.

It was Faithlife's most successful product launch in history at the time, so perhaps it was.

SineNomine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129298#Comment_1129298

My wife says they need a whole Logos for Dummies menu and functionality revamp.

I'd love to know exactly what that functionality revamp could look like. Logos/Verbum is complicated, but I'm not sure how to dramatically simplify it.

Myke Harbuck

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129298#Comment_1129298

Those of us who helped beta test the new "iteration" of Logos were also underwhelmed except for the updates to Factbook.

Well, not the whole story. I did publicly state this in the private beta forum (where, as the name suggests, there is an expectation of privacy - at least I thought there was). However, as I began to use the enhancements and new features, I began to see the value they held and thus changed my mind quickly. For example, I now realize that the new Factbook, after some use, is worth the upgrade cost alone, IMO. And the Bible Book Browser is a brilliantly simple yet valuable new tool.

So, perhaps 24 hours might not be enough time to draw the best of conclusions. Give it a full week of dedicated use and see if your assessment changes.

Phil Gons (Logos)

Christopher, thanks for the honest yet gracious feedback.

I'm sorry you're not more excited about Logos 9. We serve such a large and diverse userbase that it's really hard to nail it for everyone equally with every release. Logos 7 had a bit more focus on the pastor, and we shifted with Logos 8 to the broader audience. For Logos 9 we decided to shift back toward the pastor. It's okay if you find some releases more exciting than others.

Further, (and as a loyal fan of Logos, I offer this criticism with nothing but a positive bent) it seems that the few things that were implemented, weren't implemented very well. For example, why do you have to restart the whole program to apply the dark mode theme, and do the same to get it back to light mode? Even during their demo video, they skipped that, simply fading the screen to dark mode with some camera trickery right after the button was clicked. What kind of programming is this?

Because of our very diverse userbase, we generally take a breadth over depth approach. That is, we do 20 features and build out the essential experience for them instead of doing 2 features and taking them to full maturity. This ensures that most people can find something to enjoy in a new release, but it also means that some features aren't done enough for some users at launch.

That's why we'll devote the next six months to continuing to mature Logos 9 based on the feedback we're hearing from users.

Because Logos is so large and we didn't design it with application themes in mind, we had to make a massive investment to deliver dark mode (perhaps our third most expensive feature: [1] Factbook, [2] Sermon Manager, [3] Dark Mode). And we're still not done. There's a long list of little things that we weren't able to address. We decided to focus on the actual dark mode experience over the convenience of changing the setting. We did that for a couple of reasons: (1) we evaluated it and determined that it would be a multi-week project and (2) we figured that most people won't use dark mode and most of those who do will change it once (or not at all if they have their OS set to dark mode) and leave it alone. Therefore, we didn't consider that the best place to spend those multiple weeks. If that's how the community would like to have us spend our resources, we're happy to reconsider. You can let us know by voting for the suggestion.

And what's with the "preaching mode" loading in a web browser, so that you can't enter preaching mode unless you are online? Seriously? Why did anyone ever think this was a good idea? What's the advantage of this? Why would it not just load in the program itself?

There's a similar explanation here. The best way to bring Preaching Mode to all three platforms was to bring it to the web and allow each platform to leverage it there. We did extensive research and found that by far those who preach from a device do so from an iPad, so we decided to embed the feature in our mobile app to solve for the majority use case. We had always wanted to embed it in the desktop app, too, but it was lower priority based on the data. You can vote for that suggestion, too, if you'd like us to prioritize it.

And the Counseling Guide - I've put several entries into it, and the majority of them only pulled information from the "quick guide" series of Counseling that comes with the L9 Base package. I've bought multiple library expansions of counseling resources, and it doesn't seem to be consulting them. Kinda felt like just a basic search through this quick reference guide. Also, at least for the topics I searched, most had NO bible verses associated. When I looked up "sexual desire", it only had four verses, and none were from the Song of Solomon. Really? We aren't pointing to the SOS when counseling patients with issues of sexual desire? Honestly, it just feels shallow.

Similar explanation here. We have lots of plans to add more content to the Counseling Guide: dictionaries, journals, sermons, etc. You'll see the content really get fleshed out in the coming months.

How would you like to see us spend the next six months? What's at the top of your wish list?

Thanks for taking the time to share your feedback. I hope that in the coming point releases you'll grow in your appreciation for Logos 9.

mab

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129403#Comment_1129403

Logos is what you make of it. L9 is practically on steroids compared to what we used to have to deal with so I am just counting myself grateful. The features will always be a work in progress.

RHC

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129403#Comment_1129403

I write this request with respect and thankfulness for Logos. Although I was grateful that Carta was included in base packages, I remained frustrated that the original language Concordance or Word List feature wasn't improved to allow exports with more information included. My #1 request for Logos would be for FL to modify Concordance or Word List so that it's possible to export a list of Greek/Hebrew words for a given passage with the following information in 4 columns:

1. lemma 2. lemma gloss/definition 3. root 4. root gloss/definition

It would be great if we could also export this 4 column list such that the 4 columns are grouped under the root for each lemma.

Logos has all this great information available, but it's frustrating not being able to access it in this manner for study purposes.

I've posted this suggestion today at the Feedback site as well: https://feedback.faithlife.com/boards/logos-desktop-app/posts/816

Donovan R. Palmer

A few of my perspectives...

Bible software has really matured over the last 20 years. We can do many of the things we dreamed about with the first computer assisted Bible study programs and much more. So innovation will come at a higher level of imagination, resources and investment. Keep in mind, software facilitates study and to a certain degree, design work will fit within how people are engaging the texts and research, both at the scholarly and casual levels.

I think due to this, most of the time Bible software will now 'evolve' rather than make dramatic leaps forward in new ways of Bible study. A major version release like this will be likely to be more of milestone or marker of evolution, rather than a new way of using the software. Logos 9 to me seemed to set the stage for some new possibilities particularly with Factbook and its supporting datasets. I am speculating that the work that they are doing to Factbook will spill over into some of the other guides and overall design of the software architecture over time, and I agree with M.J. Smith, keep an eye on Bible Explorer.

Of course this all needs to be done in a way that the tool is powerful enough for scholars to really peel back layers to get at the text and mine for resources, but also approachable enough for the generalists that it is user friendly and intuitive. Not an easy path to navigate, particularly as Logos is already a bit of a Swiss Army knife as it is.

Personally, I prefer an 'evolving' development path anyhow. Most of the time major overhauls come with a major relearning of the tool and a lot of stuff gets broken. When a software package changes incrementally, you can spend time growing and learning with the tool, while continuing to focus on why you bought it in the first place. Performance and optimisation, is hard to keep in balance if you are out on the bleeding edge of development as well, because it takes time to mature coding.

If I can indulge a bit, I think that while I have a wish list of little bits and pieces I would love to see in Logos to make the functionality of the Swiss Army knife fit more specific to me, I think the areas of innovation really need to continue at the fundamentals of what Factbook is possibly trying to address. If you have a massive library, you can be sitting on a treasure trove of data on a topic and not really know it. Or even if you know it's there, you don't always have time to manually open and consult hundreds of resources. The Greek Grammar Ontology is a great example of mitigating this and BRAVO for the Factbook Bible Book section that pulls introductions, outlines, etc. from multiple commentaries and brings them together all in one place. HUGE time savers.

So I like the current course of direction. I am hoping this tact is applied particularly to the huge volumes of information we now have digitally from church history, particularly those who are from liturgical backgrounds and use the church calendar as a framework for systematic study.

I also would add that the potential of using the information from Lexham Research Commentaries is yet to be mined and has some exciting possibilities to be more integrated into the software. The same could be said for the Exegetical Summaries Series as well. Greater integration of studies which leverage maps and archaeological media is also an exciting area yet to be fully developed... we are visual learners as well as textual.

In terms of innovation, I also see artificial intelligence as a possible area of exploration. If I am studying a certain topic, it would be cool if the software could begin to anticipate where I want to go and highlight possible pathways of exploration. This has to be done with care though to not constrain imaginative and creative thinking, particularly in keeping the Biblical text central.

Anyhow, it's fun to dream and think about this stuff. We have cool tools!

Fábio Silva

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129419#Comment_1129419

Yes and probably Logos 10 will feel underwhelming as well.

It's not FaithLife's fault, it's just how products work. As a product matures it starts getting harder to have anything that feels like groundbreaking unless there is a big shift in technology or architecture.

Look at the smartphone market, are there developments? Yes. But they are always incremental QOL type. When there is a huge technological jump we can have something like the first Iphone or AI Assistants but for the year-on-year development everything feels slower

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129421#Comment_1129421

In terms of innovation, I also see artificial intelligence as a possible area of exploration. If I am studying a certain topic, it would be cool if the software could begin to anticipate where I want to go and highlight possible pathways of exploration.

Of everything you said this is the only thing I disagree.

Logos' value has been the manual tagging, the "Logos research edition", the datasets.

Also, may be it is a bit harsh to say disagree "AI as a possible area of exploration", because AI is a very broad term. To a certain extent Logos has AI already.

But the example you gave about "anticipating where you want to go". This is about predicting you. What wrong with that? Briefly if it successfully predicts you then it fail to predict the next guy.

"Highlight possible pathways of exploration" may be even broader. But what defines "possible pathways"? There are infinitely many combination of pathways. How do you sort them out? Essentially you want a few to stand out. So you need to have way to "score" them, to say one is better than the other. If it were a game like Go, there are objective rules to define your "score". Here you don't.

Lastly, while AI is a very broad term, the late advances in AI in machine learning. There are major advances in AI by that, but also there are impenetrable walls that has no break through yet. General AI will not be achieved without major paradigm shift. Recent break through in machine learning essentially is a glorified curve fitting. You need tons of data to fit a curve well, and you need to know what you're fitting already (called supervised machine learning.) There's another field called unsupervised machine learning which basically what machines to learn things by itself, without knowing "what you're fitting". It may have applications on things that don't mind about the truth (such as the stock market, as long as you earn money then it is great), but here in Logos what you want to seek is "the truth".

Simple example: assume you write a unsupervised machine learning algorithm to classify different authors. i.e. it can tell you say Genius is written by N writers. How are you able to trust it? The "proof" they have, which basically is a huge no. of parameters, is going to be very difficult to convince you they have the right answer.

This is not only a problem for religion, but also in Science. Although it is increasing popular to incorporate machine learning in Science, AFAIK most if not all is not about proving things (not to be confused with program that prove Mathematical theorem, which is a very different beast), but some sort of detections or classifications, etc.

P.S. Just trying to think of an example of how machine learning could have benefits Logos. Let's say tagging resources. Let's suppose you can write a machine learning algorithm that can help you tag a resource. If that's true then the speed of tagging, hence the quantity of the resources tagged at launch (such as Counseling Guide) will be much greater than humanly can. But do know that no matter which machine learning algorithm you have, there's always loss on new (unseen to the machine before) data. Hence there will be tagging mistakes. And even good algorithms makes a lot of mistake. IIRC even the state of the art image classification algorithm can misclassify newly generated data at around ~40%.

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129298#Comment_1129298

Those of us who helped beta test the new "iteration" of Logos were also underwhelmed except for the updates to Factbook.

I'm afraid you don't speak for me.

The counseling guide and the dark mode for reading, together with the additional sermon capabilities and the manager combine to make L9 a compelling upgrade for me.

I'm in budget limbo at the moment and waiting for my ability to purchase L9 gold so I can continue using the functions that I had gotten quite used to during the beta.

Were there earth shattering, mind numbing additions to L9? I suppose that depends on ones perspective. But I would certainly claim that the transition from 8 → 9 was more than merely iterative.

John Fidel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129501#Comment_1129501

Those of us who helped beta test the new "iteration" of Logos were also underwhelmed except for the updates to Factbook.

I'm afraid you don't speak for me.

The counseling guide and the dark mode for reading, together with the additional sermon capabilities and the manager combine to make L9 a compelling upgrade for me.

I'm in budget limbo at the moment and waiting for my ability to purchase L9 gold so I can continue using the functions that I had gotten quite used to during the beta.

Were there earth shattering, mind numbing additions to L9? I suppose that depends on ones perspective. But I would certainly claim that the transition from 8 → 9 was more than merely iterative.

I completely agree with TCBlack on this. No more needs to be said.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129314#Comment_1129314

First off, I love Logos Bible Software. It's seriously one of my favorite things. I bought a Microsoft Surface Pro laptop that I carry around everywhere just for my Logos usage. So no hate from me here. I'm a loyal customer and fan.

Secondly, I'm not really an old-timer, so I don't have a lot of experience with how upgrades and new releases flow. I first bought Logos 7, and then Logos 8 came out four months later, and I immediately upgraded. I remember significant changes and features: workflows, canvas, multiple guides... etc. So I was really excited to see what innovations Logos 9 would bring, especially as I read through all the great suggestions on the forum dedicated to Logos 9 Ideas.

And so, I purchased L9 on release day. As it turns out, I have to say... I'm a bit underwhelmed with what I have found. Don't get me wrong, there are some good things here... but it seems like most of these things are simply Quality of Life changes: Commentary divisions, Dark Mode etc... Nothing really creative or innovative like I saw in the transition to Logos 8.

Further, (and as a loyal fan of Logos, I offer this criticism with nothing but a positive bent) it seems that the few things that were implemented, weren't implemented very well. For example, why do you have to restart the whole program to apply the dark mode theme, and do the same to get it back to light mode? Even during their demo video, they skipped that, simply fading the screen to dark mode with some camera trickery right after the button was clicked. What kind of programming is this?

And what's with the "preaching mode" loading in a web browser, so that you can't enter preaching mode unless you are online? Seriously? Why did anyone ever think this was a good idea? What's the advantage of this? Why would it not just load in the program itself?

And the Counseling Guide - I've put several entries into it, and the majority of them only pulled information from the "quick guide" series of Counseling that comes with the L9 Base package. I've bought multiple library expansions of counseling resources, and it doesn't seem to be consulting them. Kinda felt like just a basic search through this quick reference guide. Also, at least for the topics I searched, most had NO bible verses associated. When I looked up "sexual desire", it only had four verses, and none were from the Song of Solomon. Really? We aren't pointing to the SOS when counseling patients with issues of sexual desire? Honestly, it just feels shallow.

Anyway - no, I don't regret my upgrade because any upgrades to this already great software are better than no upgrades - plus new base package libraries. But as both a loyal, and honest customer, I have to say, I feel a bit let down with Logos 9. Perhaps Logos 8 was simply that good of an upgrade.

Just some of my opinions:

Don't be a "loyal customer and fan". I shouldn't tell you what to do. But that's just what I'd do. It is easy to fall in love with the tools we use (especially in the beginning like first time of using Apple products, first time of using Logos...) But we should not be loyal to it. And fan may as well be a positive way to call fanboy, where people often said "Fanboy with Loss of All Objectivity (FLAO)". By the way it is sad to see that the top comments in the Logos Unbound event on Facebook are people calling "Logos fanboy blah blah blah, they should have fixed this and that."

(I think it almost goes without saying that we shouldn't be on the other end of the spectrum like some people just keep complaining here or on Facebook... I wish they just take the refund and leave. We should appreciate what they do even if the tool doesn't fit us.)

Logos has been released on a biannual schedule since Logos 5, similar to some softwares you've seen in the world, such as macOS, iOS, Windows, etc., but unlike many others in so called semantically versioned softwares. Long story short, it means that a Logos major release (defined as the increment of the first version number) is not based on the amount of new features, or backward incompatible changes (as in semantically versioned softwares) but by the time passed. (Note that the time passed is correlated to the no. of new features simply because given more time you probably can develop more, but the later is not the direct causation of a major update.)

As others has pointed out, "a new feature that cost money" is a dataset, which requires people to tag resources. While they can develop the module (say Counseling Guide) to be fully functional, the initially small dataset will make the tool handicap. But the tool has no problem, it just needs more data. (A poor analogy might be a fully working browser with no internet connection so you can't pour in "data"/websites to your perfectly functioning browser. Or in our case your internet connection only sees the part of the web of your country, not the whole world wide web.)

I tend to think that COVID-19 has an impact on Logos 9. Had there be no COVID-19, due to their predefined biannual schedule, they will launch at the same time, but since people would have worked more efficiently, there will be more features and/or better tagged datasets such that the tool is less handicapped. As least someone claimed that Logos Unbound is launched on Facebook due to staffing issues. So definitely there's non-zero impact there.

And look at the positive side, no matter how underwhelming the new features are, there are new packages and hence affordable price to buy new resources that wasn't as affordable before this launch. If one really don't want to buy these new features, one could buy the library upgrade alone (all it takes is a subscription to Connect and after that you have option to buy package without the feature set. The subscription is even free to new subscribers.)

Kenneth Neighoff

Those of us who helped beta test the new "iteration" of Logos were also underwhelmed except for the updates to Factbook.

Josh, please don't make blanket statements about the beta testers' impression of L9.

[Y]

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129298#Comment_1129298

My wife says they need a whole Logos for Dummies menu and functionality revamp.

May be the mobile version is the Logos for Dummies. They have multiple of them too.

consider revamping the software from the ground up.

Not a chance. And they already revamped the software from the ground up, it is called the mobile version. It is funny that people from the other side is complaining how the mobile version should be "fully functional" like the desktop version. There's at least 2 analogies:

1. Apple's iPad and Macbook. From one side people can complain Macbook is too complicated, let's give us a Macbook for Dummies. And here we have iPad. On the other side people are complaing iPad should run full macOS, run my desktop softwares...

2. Adobe's original Lightroom (now renamed Lightroom Classic) and the new Lightroom. Lightroom is rebuilt form the ground up, much faster, easier to use for newbies, but the Lightroom Classic is the heavy lifting but slow software that does more than Lightroom. The 2 co-exists, and appealed to different kinds of people, but can work together.

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129506#Comment_1129506

Those of us who helped beta test the new "iteration" of Logos were also underwhelmed except for the updates to Factbook.

Josh, please don't make blanket statements about the beta testers' impression of L9.

Exactly my response!

Mattillo

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129540#Comment_1129540

I may be in the minority on this but I would like to see Logos expand on its media searches as well as make a portion of it geared towards public. I have books where I know the images are but when I do a media search, they don't show. This is probably unlikely due to the expense but getting images in older surveys, atlases, dictionaries and study bibles tagged so they show in media searches would be wonderful.

Don't get me wrong... I love logos but it takes time to Learn how to use Logos. I'd like to see more free training videos as well.

In regards to the public comment, more interactives and visuals that can be brought up during a teaching session (as well as the old ones getting updated).

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129540#Comment_1129540

Exactly my response!

I rather suspect Josh didn't take a survey. For sure, didn't correctly calculate the confidence interval.

But in Bible-scholar-land, constant use of double-negatives compute out to 'at least 50-50' (which doesn't mean much). However, in the case of 'underwhelming', it's equivalent to 'not overwhelming'. Unexcited as not excited. There's no shared middle (going back to high school venn diagrams).

I'm guessing the betas were not overwhelming. Smiling. Now, as above, for 2020, that might be understandable.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129419#Comment_1129419

As I said elsewhere, L8 was the first new release that I never upgraded to, and (excepting Ultimate) I've bought the top available package ever since the first Scholar's bundle back in the 90s (including the first Silver, first Gold, first Portfolio & second, and the first two Collector's editions). Twice I almost talked myself into buying the L8 Collector's, and backed out at the click-to-pay button. The reason was I just didn't feel any excitement or sense of urgency or need. Not to say there is stuff I would like to have, just not enough to tip me over the edge. I feel like the newest Master Collection that got offered for only 2 days is something I would have certainly taken advantage of, and if I had known that discounts of L8 were being offered a day earlier, I might well have gone ahead and finally nabbed Collector's.

I checked out the L9 Collector's and I haven't been so underwhelmed in a long time. Phil said they focused on pastors, and I believe it. 120-odd devotionals!!!! [|-)] Tons of counseling dreck. [8-)] If someone offered to pay me $100 to read each one, I'm not sure I'd bite. I get the shakes just thinking about it. You know that awful bitter stuff between the two halves of a pecan? That's what I feel like this L9 Collector's mostly is...very little meat, and nearly twice as expensive of the L8 version! One of the reasons is the massively expensive journals bundle included--and it's called "Scholar's". [:^)] [+o(] When I called to ask about the availability of the L8 bundles, I told the sales guy that the lion's share of stuff that's packed into the journal bundle includes resources I've never even heard of before and the vast majority of "journals" (I think some may just be magazines) are things I've never once seen cited in my Logos library. He proceeded to pitch me on how they (FL) were trying to focus on scholar's with this Collector's edition...in spite of the fact I had just called that whole idea into question. I could almost see the sales flow chart and cue cards he was reading from.

This gets at one of the errors I've noticed and complained about regarding the top bundles that FL offers. They (FL) have a tendency to imagine that scholars and pastors alike are the target customers for Portfolio and Collector's. Uhh, NO. There is next to no overlap. Every single "pastor focused" resource sandwiched into one of these large bundles is an incentive for me to cringe and spend nothing. Pastors, generally speaking, aren't too interested in scholarly resources. I could point to wagon loads of scholarly material, such as the de Gruyter bundles, that shriveled and died on the vine...while practically every single devotional that's ever been published in history has made it into Logos and has been packed sardine-like into the flagship product bundles. My point is (and I've made this request before) that FL needs to create BIBLE FOCUSED packages for Bible-focused customers. Just to be clear, I'm not being particularly snooty with my use of the word "scholarly"...I am just making reference to BIBLE-focused STUDY material...and, just to be clear, devotionals and counseling, and frankly, church history AIN'T IT. In years past, I've had to swallow train cars full of pastor pablum to get a bundle-priced deal on certain study resources I wanted that never went on sale at any other time. Well, that's probably all over. There are still tons of items in my wish list that I would like to see in a Portfolio or Collector's bundle, but time and again...NOPE. A few years back I spent almost a month creating and posting my theoretical Unobtanium Collection (the whole thing running in the thou$and$, I have no doubt). Not all that long after Logos came out with the Ultimate Collection, but again, there is not that much overlap between the two. Ultimate is bogged down with church and preacher stuff and not nearly enough Bible stuff.

So, anyway, I know I won't be getting the Collector's this time around, not even at a discount. Only a significant discount is likely to get me to make a move on anything else L9ish. I'm okay with that. I just got my $1200 and it could have gone to Logos, but it won't. It could have, if what I wanted was in the flagship packages, but...

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129443#Comment_1129443

Yes and probably Logos 10 will feel underwhelming as well.

It's not FaithLife's fault, it's just how products work. As a product matures it starts getting harder to have anything that feels like groundbreaking unless there is a big shift in technology or architecture.

Look at the smartphone market, are there developments? Yes. But they are always incremental QOL type. When there is a huge technological jump we can have something like the first Iphone or AI Assistants but for the year-on-year development everything feels slower

I have never, not once, purchased a newer version of Logos because of new features. In fact, the more they add to the software, the less affection I have for it. I want Logos to save me time and offer quality resources for searching, but more and more I get the distinct sense that it's trying to think for people, and not all that surprisingly, people seem to eat that stuff up. It kind of repulses me.

I buy new versions because I hope there will be a new mix of resources that I can pick up at bundle pricing. Although there are still plenty of opportunities for such packages to be cobbled together by FL, with each successive iteration there is less and less that I find interesting or worthwhile being included in the flagship packages. The L9 Collector's is a total snooze-fest.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129563#Comment_1129563

Only a significant discount is likely to get me to make a move on anything else L9ish. I'm okay with that. I just got my $1200 and it could have gone to Logos, but it won't. It could have, if what I wanted was in the flagship packages, but...

Well. Maybe you're a tad-bit underwhelmed? I wonder what gets folks so emotional over Logos? It's just software and books. Like if one went to the store, and they didn't impress, you'd not even notice (maybe sigh). The 2021 Honda Accord looks like the 2015 (thank goodness).

Maybe Logos is integral to folk's lives? Like a toolset you're locked into (Ryobi!). Now, for me, I scanned the full-feature, and saw lots of don't-want. But I found the academic feature that had less don't-want. So, I got that. Then, I started looking at it closely, and noticed they lazy'd out the obvious. Kind of like a new Ryobi tool that didn't integrate. So, I surprised the CS lady at 6 am for a refund. It was peanuts for me, but somehow, it had to go.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129574#Comment_1129574

Maybe Logos is integral to folk's lives?

I've said here probably half-a-dozen times over the last 12 years that I consider myself married to Logos, for better or worse. And since the shift from Libronix (L3), it's been worser and worser and worser every couple of years. I feel like I've been faithful to Logos (to the tune of ten$ of thou$and$ of dollar$), and she's left me over her shoulder and rarely ever looks back. I remember days of yore when I was a huge cheerleader for Logos. Although I'm bound and can't do without it, I've long felt jilted, disrespected, and ignored. My grumpiness mushroomed when they got rid of Dave, my salesmen. Spitballing, I'd say that cost FL at least $10-20K since that happened. There's a lot of pain in my relationship with Logos, so that's the source of the emotion.

Ken McGuire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129298#Comment_1129298

consider revamping the software from the ground up.

Ugg. I was actively involved when they did that with Logos 4. As much as I could see the eventual advantages of the whole library search model of Logos 4, I, like many others here, kept our Libronix 3 install going for years until Logos added enough features and datasets to actually accomplish what we were used to.

Of course, since then we have seen work on other rewrites - namely the mobile app and web app. I remember when I was so pleased with their early versions - which were clunky reader only apps. It is amazing to me what all they can do now - even if I use them mostly as mobile readers.

Sean

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129574#Comment_1129574

But I found the academic feature that had less don't-want. So, I got that. Then, I started looking at it closely, and noticed they lazy'd out the obvious.

I'm looking at the Academic Sets. Could you please translate or ELI5 this?

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129588#Comment_1129588

I'm looking at the Academic Sets. Could you please translate or ELI5 this?

Keep in mind, my comment was relative to emotions; not logic. These are just my 2 cents (and I keep adding, it's Covid-time for them too ... hard to deliver):

- The commentaries: if you like; I don't trust FL (no offense intended)

- The added RIs: okie dokie. I use the NRSV in multiview since it has the deuteros and a quick OL glance.

- The datasets: I'm not the trusting type as above. I pull the OL's to start, and then the recognized scholars. Journals, journals!

- The Lexham Research lexicons: very interesting. I suspect they could turn out well, with added ???. But then I remembered FL is an A or B outfit (choose one). I'd still have to pull the OLs.

- The mss's. Convenient, though the New Orleans apparatus is better. The 'lazy'd' is no linkage to my Logos mss's. What's the point?

So. Logically, good buy. But emotionally, not on my watch.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129586#Comment_1129586

I, like many others here, kept our Libronix 3 install going for years until Logos added enough features and datasets to actually accomplish what we were used to.

I'm glad you finally got the things you needed. I never did--there are at least half-a-dozen MUST HAVES for my study process in L3 that never got ported or remade in LSince. I wish that would change, but I'm pretty sure it never will. So, I'm stuck with L3 until the end it seems.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129574#Comment_1129574

Only a significant discount is likely to get me to make a move on anything else L9ish. I'm okay with that. I just got my $1200 and it could have gone to Logos, but it won't. It could have, if what I wanted was in the flagship packages, but...

Well. Maybe you're a tad-bit underwhelmed? I wonder what gets folks so emotional over Logos? It's just software and books. Like if one went to the store, and they didn't impress, you'd not even notice (maybe sigh). The 2021 Honda Accord looks like the 2015 (thank goodness).

Maybe Logos is integral to folk's lives? Like a toolset you're locked into (Ryobi!). Now, for me, I scanned the full-feature, and saw lots of don't-want. But I found the academic feature that had less don't-want. So, I got that. Then, I started looking at it closely, and noticed they lazy'd out the obvious. Kind of like a new Ryobi tool that didn't integrate. So, I surprised the CS lady at 6 am for a refund. It was peanuts for me, but somehow, it had to go.

I certainly asked that to myself quite often lately. What‘s my emotional response to this and why?

To me a large part of it is guilt. It may be different for others but I grew up very poor. And whenever I spent money not wisely I have tremendous amount of guilt. (I’m still poor, but at least now I can afford buying Logos packages.)

If I buy something I don’t need, I felt guilt. If I buy something I need, but don’t use it often, I felt guilt as I wasted money on it but didn’t spend enough time on it.

Now if I buy the full feature set and found that it is not all that useful, I will feel the same thing. May be like buyer remorse. Like buying something I actually don’t need.

And the Logos pricing model is quite incompatible to people like me. It encourages buying unnecessary things (because if I buy a package with all those things I don’t need it is cheaper than buying only those I need.)

Also, the feeling that I paid a little to obtain something worth much more is sort of like greed. It satisfies our want to want more regardless of our need.

Also, in Logos pricing model, it is not transparent on its dynamic pricing. Hearing from another thread that splitting a purchase fifthy something times would amount to huge savings. That gives me the feeling that if I don’t figure out that and buy it in the cheapest way possible, that Is spending money not wisely. Again, Guilt.

And then doubt—do I really need this? theres new resources I want but I have similar resources already. wouldnt the existing, perhaps inferior, resource by enough? Am I greedy to want more but I don’t actually need it?

And then another kind of guilt: am I too miserly towards all these fine people at Faithlife?

And of course returning a product for refund resulted in guilt too.

I tried to rationalize spending on Logos by thinking it like a tithing. But I’m not certain how should I feel about it.

And in this year especially during COVID19, I really want to buy something from them worrying that they might not be doing very well.

Among everything I spent money on, definitely Logos is the most emotional one now that I think about it. (Well in case of medical bill I just have pure anger towards US health care so not that complicated!) in the beginning of purchasing Logos, it was pure joy I guess, and subsequently as I keep upgrading, i have increasing level of Mixed feeling like above.

I hope some of you can share how you view and feel towards Logos purchases.

JoshInRI

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129540#Comment_1129540

Bruce and others, in hindsight I wish I had written "some of us" or simply not posted at all. Live and learn.

You all reached me. I will do better.

Ken McGuire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129605#Comment_1129605

I'm glad you finally got the things you needed. I never did--there are at least half-a-dozen MUST HAVES for my study process in L3 that never got ported or remade in LSince. I wish that would change, but I'm pretty sure it never will. So, I'm stuck with L3 until the end it seems.

And that, of course is the reason for my initial thought of "Ugg" at the thought of a complete rewrite, even if the only feature from L3 that I really miss is the almost certainly unintended feature of being able to search locked books - so I made a Libronix collection of some significant books which I had in physical and not electronic format.

Considering how tightly Libronix was with MS IE, I am impressed that you have been able to keep it running.

Bruce Dunning

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129625#Comment_1129625

Bruce and others, in hindsight I wish I had written "some of us" or simply not posted at all. Live and learn.

I too am continually living and learning. May we never stop. On the other hand, I still think it is good to post our personal opinions in a positive framework, even if they are criticisms.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129630#Comment_1129630

Bruce and others, in hindsight I wish I had written "some of us" or simply not posted at all. Live and learn.

I too am continually living and learning. May we never stop. On the other hand, I still think it is good to post our personal opinions in a positive framework, even if they are criticisms.

Also constructive criticism. even if it is in a “negative teamwork”, you can still have some takeaway from it. But that one is just not constructive at all. That’s no actionable outcome From it.

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129626#Comment_1129626

I'm glad you finally got the things you needed. I never did--there are at least half-a-dozen MUST HAVES for my study process in L3 that never got ported or remade in LSince. I wish that would change, but I'm pretty sure it never will. So, I'm stuck with L3 until the end it seems.

And that, of course is the reason for my initial thought of "Ugg" at the thought of a complete rewrite, even if the only feature from L3 that I really miss is the almost certainly unintended feature of being able to search locked books - so I made a Libronix collection of some significant books which I had in physical and not electronic format.

Considering how tightly Libronix was with MS IE, I am impressed that you have been able to keep it running.

I heard that before. I envy you. I think when I heard about that I tried to dig out old copies of Libronix. But I can’t find locked books inside the CD. IIRC you need to have downloaded those books from the website Back then, right? I have visited that website before unfortunately I didn’t keep any of the downloads.

PetahChristian

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129561#Comment_1129561

However, in the case of 'underwhelming', it's equivalent to 'not overwhelming'. Unexcited as not excited. There's no shared middle (going back to high school venn diagrams).

Surprisingly, there’s a middle but it happens to be archaic.

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/19430/why-do-people-say-over-and-underwhelmed-but-never-just-whelmed

Ken McGuire

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129640#Comment_1129640

I heard that before. I envy you. I think when I heard about that I tried to dig out old copies of Libronix. But I can’t find locked books inside the CD. IIRC you need to have downloaded those books from the website Back then, right? I have visited that website before unfortunately I didn’t keep any of the downloads.

You did need a copy of the resource file on your system, yes. But the DVD had a lot of them, and, of course, the FTP site had more. And someone on the forums mentioned how Libronix would search locked resources. It wouldn't display them, but it gave you page numbers, IIRC.

It was also nice to be able to share compiled Personal Books instead of the source files. This made linking between PB's much more useful - and that was something MJ took advantage of in sharing a collection of Creeds.

John Fidel

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129625#Comment_1129625

Josh,

All is good. Thanks for posting back.

Myke Harbuck

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129625#Comment_1129625

Bruce and others, in hindsight I wish I had written "some of us" or simply not posted at all. Live and learn.

You all reached me. I will do better.

What a Christ-like response brother! Thank you for demonstrating the attitude of Christ here. I hope we can all learn from your example.

David Wanat

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/1129718#Comment_1129718

I guess what I notice when I use L9 (aside from the hideous splash loading screen) is that I don't notice it at all except when I notice it runs a bit faster.

Which is better than the updates/upgrades from most new versions of a software I've experienced