Mormon Studies Collection (45 vols.)
Comments
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danwdoo said:
Transparency would go a long way here instead of so much secrecy.
Danwdoo, I agree, an official ST would be nice.
But LDS has been anything but secret in the last 30 years or so (as compared to other managed denominations). You can even buy from them, color coded edit-tracing of the original documents, if you like .., who did what and when. I think, the issue is whether they want Logos as a reseller. Same issue for a lot of Isreal-based publishers.
I'd love to see color-coded Bible edits (as per apparati). Granted a bit messy from so many.
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Yes, you can get all kinds of documents, but somehow there is still so little clarity on what are the fully flushed out beliefs of the LDS actually are at present. This thread should show that is abundantly clear. If there was a detailed work somewhere that answered these questions, a simple link to it would solve most of these ongoing questions and I think many on this thread would be interested in it. I would be! But unfortunately, such a thing does not seem to exist. Please someone better informed than me post a link if I am mistaken. I know LDS members and while we can reach agreement on what they do not believe, it's very difficult to get a full picture of what they actually do believe beyond lots of generalities. An official resource that can be fairly critiqued is something I would love to see in Logos (keeping it Logos centered!).
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So, I'm pretty slammed this week, and have limited access.
One of the issues is that Latter-day Saints are not Protestants. (Duh.) A religion which preaches living prophets, ongoing revelation, and a (theoretically) open canon, and which is also traditionally non-exegetical, is not going to produce a "systematic theology." Protestants who approach Latter-day Saint people or writings assuming that Protestant tendencies or established principles like inerrancy, sola scriptura, etc. cannot help but distort, misunderstand, and misrepresent.
Some have done a good job (I've linked on Logos elsewhere to examples.) But others (whether legit scholars, counter-cultists/polemecists or posters here) really do a poor job representing what LDS believe and why, i.e. HOW they think. Because that HOW is not at all a Protestant mindset, even if there is a lot of shared historical, textual, and doctrinal overlap.
More later, if I can."The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton
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Thanks for your willingness to engage, Ben. I do want to keep to the forum guidelines as much as possible and try to limit theological discussion so I'm hoping to find either resources currently in Logos that the LDS would view as fair and accurate representations of their views or suggested materials that we can request to be added.
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danwdoo said:
Thanks for your willingness to engage, Ben. I do want to keep to the forum guidelines as much as possible and try to limit theological discussion so I'm hoping to find either resources currently in Logos that the LDS would view as fair and accurate representations of their views or suggested materials that we can request to be added.
👍
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Verbum Max0 -
I see that at this time this collection has three volumes listed in its PDP simply as "Book of Mormon". Could someone who knows why this is the case please explain?
“The trouble is that everyone talks about reforming others and no one thinks about reforming himself.” St. Peter of Alcántara
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SineNomine said:
I see that at this time this collection has three volumes listed in its PDP simply as "Book of Mormon". Could someone who knows why this is the case please explain?
Actually, that's the main reason why I still see some cursory value in the collection (definitely not at $40 though).
These are three editions of the Book of Mormon.
The Logos tools would be extremely helpful to analyze what has been changed, and when. So only the "why" would be manual work then.
Similarly, if Logos ever makes a JW studies collection, I'd expect multiple editions of the New World Translation.
And if Logos ever makes a Quranic studies collection, I'd expect multiple editions of the Quran (yes they exist, despite Muslim claims to the contrary).
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Armin said:
Let's stop arguing and push this collection into production. In a few days, my bid celebrates its 8th birthday!
Amen. And then we can push for Ben's modern Mormonism collection. But I'd like to get this one over the line.
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Ben,
Which book would you consider the best archaeological defense for the Book of Mormon?
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Ben is definitely one of the nicest people on the forums. He has been open about his Mormon (cough) LDS faith. As I have said for many years as an Ex-Mormon, (served a Mission in Brazil '04 - '06) I'd rather have a Mormon neighbor instead of a Christian neighbor any day of the week. They are hands down the nicest people even after my apostasy from the Mormon faith.
That said, the goal of this forum is not to discuss or debate theological points and / or make exclusionary remarks. One thing you will encounter from lay level Mormons to Mormon Scholars is that they all disagree as to what is authoritative. It is very very annoying.
For example, They will say, "Mormons don't believe that after attaining the Celestial Kingdom (Exaltation) and becoming Gods that they will create spirit babies." Yes you read that correctly.
On my Youtube channel (Mormon Suicide), I demonstrate a consensus across the Standard Works (Mormon Scripture), LDS Sunday School / Seminary Teaching materials, and LDS Scholars. Nevertheless, after watching the videos an LDS scholar brushed the information aside by saying "these aren't sources the typical member WOULD USE." Not that the sources weren't valid rather that most members wouldn't use them.
That said, we must get push this resource into production. Years have gone by and it hasn't started. I have a max bid in on it. I encourage others to up their bid.
PS: Mormons are the only "cult" ( have a love and hate relationship with that word) that has Scholars. They are credentialed in IVY league schools in Theology. Scientologists don't have them. It is logical contradiction in Jehovah's Witnesses circles as college education is frowned upon. Etc.
- Elder Suicide
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I've put in my bid, if we all raise our bids by 10.00 this would go into production. I really think this is a great collection for the price.
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Defenders Media said:
PS: Mormons are the only "cult"
The way that cult was defined for me in anthropology and religious studies classes in graduate school, LDS is no longer a cult -- it is an established religion. Cults are new, small, counter-cultural and usually temporary. They usually disappear within 3 or 4 generations.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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David Taylor Jr said:
I'm starting to think this collection will never become available
i tend to think the same. Of course, I think a Mormon member of the forums (assuming I didn’t misunderstand his point) pointed out that the older works wouldn’t have any doctrinal value based on how they understood revelation. So, I became less interested in the set after that.
And I apologize if I misunderstood his meaning. It’s not intentional.
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0 -
Really just want a copy of the Book of Mormon in Logos. I've not found one individually in the store.David Wanat said:David Taylor Jr said:I'm starting to think this collection will never become available
i tend to think the same. Of course, I think a Mormon member of the forums (assuming I didn’t misunderstand his point) pointed out that the older works wouldn’t have any doctrinal value based on how they understood revelation. So, I became less interested in the set after that.
And I apologize if I misunderstood his meaning. It’s not intentional.
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David Taylor Jr said:
Really just want a copy of the Book of Mormon in Logos. I've not found one individually in the store.David Wanat said:David Taylor Jr said:I'm starting to think this collection will never become available
i tend to think the same. Of course, I think a Mormon member of the forums (assuming I didn’t misunderstand his point) pointed out that the older works wouldn’t have any doctrinal value based on how they understood revelation. So, I became less interested in the set after that.
And I apologize if I misunderstood his meaning. It’s not intentional.
It can be found on Kindle (it includes Doctrines and Covenants, Pearl of Great Price, and I think I'm forgetting one work). It was free last time I checked.
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0 -
Maybe there is a way for volunteers to help and decrease the production costs? Many of us want to see this done. If I can get an electronic copy, maybe I just need to add it as a personal book....
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David Taylor Jr said:
Really just want a copy of the Book of Mormon in Logos. I've not found one individually in the store.
Try here...
https://www.logos.com/product/157656/the-book-of-mormon-selections-annotated-and-explained
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This is a collection that should be pushed into production for a number of reasons. If someone were willing to start a new thread to bring this to people's attention as history and as apologetics and do so every 3-4 months we might be ale to see some movement.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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So, the title of this thread has 45 volumes in the collection, but the current CP has 22. I wonder what has been removed?
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If I remember correctly, The Journal of Discourses was included, but now removed. This was one that I was very interested in. [:(]
Edit: My mistake: the description says that it is included, but I do not see it in the list of resources:
- The Book of Mormon, the Pearl of Great Price, and the Doctrine and Covenants in one collection
- Twenty-six volumes of the Journal of Discourses
- Over seven volumes on the history of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
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I found this original list of resources on the Wayback Machine:
- The Book of Mormon, by Joseph Smith, Jr.
- The Book of Mormon, by Joseph Smith, Jr.
- The Doctrine and Covenants of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, by Joseph Smith, Jr.
- The Pearl of Great Price: Being a Choice Selection from the Revelations, Translations, and Narrations of Joseph Smith, by Joseph Smith, Jr.
- Correspondence between Joseph Smith, the Prophet, and Col. John Wentworth, Gen. James Arlington Bennet, and the Honorable John C. Calhoun, by Joseph Smith, Jr.
- Journal of Discourses, vols. 1–2, by Brigham Young
- Journal of Discourses, vols. 3-4, by Brigham Young
- Journal of Discourses, vols. 5-6, by Brigham Young
- Journal of Discourses, vols. 7-8, by Brigham Young
- Journal of Discourses, vols. 9-10, by Brigham Young
- Journal of Discourses, vols. 11-12, by Brigham Young
- Journal of Discourses, vols. 13-14, by Brigham Young
- Journal of Discourses, vol. 15, by Brigham Young
- Journal of Discourses, vol. 16, by Brigham Young
- Journal of Discourses, vol. 17, by Brigham Young
- Journal of Discourses, vol. 18, by Brigham Young
- Journal of Discourses, vol. 19, by Brigham Young
- Journal of Discourses, vol. 20, by Brigham Young
- Journal of Discourses, vols. 21-23, by John Taylor
- Journal of Discourses, vols. 24-26, by John Taylor
- The Life of John Taylor, by Brigham Henry Roberts
- Meditation and Atonement of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, by John Taylor
- The Government of God, by John Taylor
- Wilford Woodruff: Fourth President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, by Matthias F. Cowley
- Biography and Family Record of Lorenzo Snow, by Eliza R. Snow Smith
- Gospel Doctrine: Selections from the Sermons and Writings of Joseph F. Smith, by Joseph Fielding Smith, Sr.
- Essentials in Church History, by Joseph Fielding Smith, Sr.
- Origin of the 'Reorganized' Church and the Question of Succession, by Joseph Fielding Smith, Sr.
- Salvation Universal, by Joseph Fielding Smith, Sr.
- Blood Atonement and the Origin of Plural Marriage: A Discussion, by Joseph Fielding Smith, Sr. and Richard C. Evans
- History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, vol. 1, by Brigham Henry Roberts
- History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, vol. 2, by Brigham Henry Roberts
- History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, vol. 3, by Brigham Henry Roberts
- History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, vol. 4, by Brigham Henry Roberts
- History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, vol. 5, by Brigham Henry Roberts
- History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, vol. 6, by Brigham Henry Roberts
- History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, vol. 7, by Brigham Henry Roberts
- New Witnesses for God, vol. 1, by Brigham Henry Roberts
- New Witnesses for God, vol. 2, by Brigham Henry Roberts
- New Witnesses for God, vol. 3, by Brigham Henry Roberts
- 2000 Changes in the Book of Mormon, by Lamoni Call
- The Story of the Book of Mormon, by George Reynolds
- A Dictionary of the Book of Mormon, by George Reynolds
- A Complete Concordance to the Book of Mormon, by George Reynolds
- Book of Mormon Ready References, by William A. Morton
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Ronald Quick said:
So, the title of this thread has 45 volumes in the collection, but the current CP has 22. I wonder what has been removed?
Mormon Studies Collection (45 vols.) - Logos Bible Software (archive.org)
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Thanks. I found it too.
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I, too.
Here's an Excel file of the two, if it helps. I wasn't able to do a quickie compare formula; some titles might have been re-worded.
macOS (Logos Pro - Beta) | Android 13 (Logos Stable)
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If Ben (a mormon) is not bidding, then that means the collection may not be as valuable as some think it might be. It seems he knows his stuff, so I think I’ll pass!
DAL
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that as a student of church history he likely has them (and more) already available to him ... and that, as a student, he is probably short on cash for duplicate resources. Do I know my speculation is correct? No, but it is as reasonable as your speculation.DAL said:If Ben (a mormon) is not bidding, then that means
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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MJ. Smith said:
This is a collection that should be pushed into production for a number of reasons. If someone were willing to start a new thread to bring this to people's attention as history and as apologetics and do so every 3-4 months we might be ale to see some movement.
I thought the community pricing was supposed to show how serious interest was. Maybe I’m missing your point?
WIN 11 i7 9750H, RTX 2060, 16GB RAM, 1TB SSD | iPad Air 3
Verbum Max0 -
Ten years now.
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You are right. For Latter-Day Saints, the Bible is the first book of Scripture, they also consider The Book of Mormon, the Doctrine of Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price as scripture.
- The Book of Mormon is a book written between 600 bC and 421 aD in America, parallel to the Bible. It narrates the deals of God with the ancient american people, they being a remanent of the tribe of Joseph. In this way, it stablishes the native american people as part of the Israel tribes and inheritants of the Abrahamic Covenant. It also relates a visit of Christ to America after his resurrection. Beside the Old Testament and the New Testament, the Book of Mormon is considered Another Testament of Jesus Christ.
- Doctrine and Covenants is a recollection of God's communications (revelations) received by modern prophets like Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. It has a great doctrinal and historical relevance when you're studying the doctrine of the history of the Church.
- The Pearl of Great Price is a volume that includes two old testamentary prophetic books (the Book of Moses and the Book of Abraham), a new testamentary prophetic book (JS-Matthew) and two historical books (JS-History and the Articles of Faith).
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There's no secret at all. You can consider this as the official doctrine of the Church:
- All that is inside the Gospel Library. Just search in Google "Gospel Library" and you can install it in your phone. It includes the Scriptures, the regular Sunday teaching manuals, the General Conferences, the Hymns, the handbooks, and many auxiliar materials.
- All that is inside the Official site of the Church.
Those are public materials, no hidden ones. You don't need to be a member of the Church to access to them. The Church has put a great effort to gather the Gospel Library and this may serve to clearly distinguish official and not-official materials. That is, doctrinal materials from viewpoints.
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I'm a Latter-day Saint (aka mormon). The collection is valuable, because it has some good works. The problem with this list is that it is focused mostly in apologetic or controversial works, tought maybe more than 10,000 important works are left aside. It has an anti-mormon flavor, not a neutral one. Anyway, most of the materials are very valuable, tought this is a somewhat incomplete and non-representative collection.
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The Gospel Library can be taken as this resource. What it contains is the official doctrine and taught of the Church. It is publicly available and free,
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MJ. Smith said:
that as a student of church history he likely has them (and more) already available to him ... and that, as a student, he is probably short on cash for duplicate resources. Do I know my speculation is correct? No, but it is as reasonable as your speculation.DAL said:If Ben (a mormon) is not bidding, then that means
Going from 45 titles to just 22 makes this a more than good enough reason to not bid on it anymore. That’s a lot of information that got removed!
DAL
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DAL said:MJ. Smith said:
that as a student of church history he likely has them (and more) already available to him ... and that, as a student, he is probably short on cash for duplicate resources. Do I know my speculation is correct? No, but it is as reasonable as your speculation.DAL said:If Ben (a mormon) is not bidding, then that means
Going from 45 titles to just 22 makes this a more than good enough reason to not bid on it anymore. That’s a lot of information that got removed!
DAL
It did not go from 45 to 22. One is a condensed list while the other lists each volume separately. For example, History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, vols. 1–7 contains 7 volumes. On one list it has 7 lines, on the other, one line. It is two representations of the SAME thing.
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I'm a Latter-day Saint (aka mormon). The collection is valuable, because it has some good works. The problem with this list is that it is focused mostly in apologetic or controversial works, tought maybe more than 10,000 important works are left aside. It has an anti-mormon flavor, not a neutral one. Anyway, most of the materials are very valuable, tought this is a somewhat incomplete and non-representative collection.
The focus on apologetic resources fits in with Faithlife's focus as a Christian business. The LDS church falls outside of orthodox Christianity with their belief in polytheism rather than the traditional Christian belief in the Trinity. This is a fundamental part of Christianity and puts the LDS outside of orthodox Christianity. Because of this, I would expect logos to provide resources to help pastors and other Christians reach those in the LDS church.
This forum is not for doctrinal discussion so I will stop it at that, though I do enjoy that discussion and would love to further this conversation on another forum.0 -
I'm a Latter-day Saint (aka mormon). The collection is valuable, because it has some good works. The problem with this list is that it is focused mostly in apologetic or controversial works, tought maybe more than 10,000 important works are left aside. It has an anti-mormon flavor, not a neutral one. Anyway, most of the materials are very valuable, tought this is a somewhat incomplete and non-representative collection.
The focus on apologetic resources fits in with Faithlife's focus as a Christian business. The LDS church falls outside of orthodox Christianity with their belief in polytheism rather than the traditional Christian belief in the Trinity. This is a fundamental part of Christianity and puts the LDS outside of orthodox Christianity. Because of this, I would expect logos to provide resources to help pastors and other Christians reach those in the LDS church.
This forum is not for doctrinal discussion so I will stop it at that, though I do enjoy that discussion and would love to further this conversation on another forum.0 -
I'm a Latter-day Saint (aka mormon). The collection is valuable, because it has some good works. The problem with this list is that it is focused mostly in apologetic or controversial works, tought maybe more than 10,000 important works are left aside. It has an anti-mormon flavor, not a neutral one. Anyway, most of the materials are very valuable, tought this is a somewhat incomplete and non-representative collection.
The focus on apologetic resources fits in with Faithlife's focus as a Christian business. The LDS church falls outside of orthodox Christianity with their belief in polytheism rather than the traditional Christian belief in the Trinity. This is a fundamental part of Christianity and puts the LDS outside of orthodox Christianity. Because of this, I would expect logos to provide resources to help pastors and other Christians reach those in the LDS church.
This forum is not for doctrinal discussion so I will stop it at that, though I do enjoy that discussion and would love to further this conversation on another forum.0 -
I'm a Latter-day Saint (aka mormon). The collection is valuable, because it has some good works. The problem with this list is that it is focused mostly in apologetic or controversial works, tought maybe more than 10,000 important works are left aside. It has an anti-mormon flavor, not a neutral one. Anyway, most of the materials are very valuable, tought this is a somewhat incomplete and non-representative collection.
I wonder if there is a way that we could work with Logos to create a smaller set of materials that contain just the latest and historical doctrinal documents and then another set of materials for apologetics with additional resources to further understand the implications of that doctrine.
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Latter-day Saints would not apply the term "polytheism" to themselves, nor is the theology akin to Greek, or Roman systems of pantheons which the term alludes to. Call us non-trinitarians if you must.
Please stay focused on the collection (which, fwiw, I still don't see a point to bidding on. There's nothing in there I would consult on a regular basis except scripture, and I have better resources for that.)"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton
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Ben said:
Latter-day Saints would not apply the term "polytheism" to themselves, nor is the theology akin to Greek, or Roman systems of pantheons which the term alludes to. Call us non-trinitarians if you must.
Please stay focused on the collection (which, fwiw, I still don't see a point to bidding on. There's nothing in there I would consult on a regular basis except scripture, and I have better resources for that.)Ben - I am not looking for a long discussion/argument on this. Just a quick question. From my understanding, the LDS belief is that God the Father is one of many gods like him that each rule their own universe/planet and anyone - Jesus being one - who is a good LDS male can get their own planet/universe to rule as a god. If you don't use polytheism for that, what term would better define that believe in many gods?
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Ben said:
... Please stay focused on the collection (which, fwiw, I still don't see a point to bidding on. There's nothing in there I would consult on a regular basis except scripture, and I have better resources for that.)
As for staying on focus, I have electronic versions of many of the resources that I need here, however I do see value in having them all within Logos as they would all be linked together among themselves and other resources. For example, I study Islam and having the Qur'an available as a reference to be linked to has value.
You say that you wouldn't refer to anything except scripture and I am assuming you are referring to the BOM and DOC, etc, correct? What better resource do you have for that?
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David Wanat said:
I thought the community pricing was supposed to show how serious interest was. Maybe I’m missing your point?
Way off my point that DAL was assuming that Ben's non-interest indicated that the collection was not useful to him (and by implication others).
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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For Latter-Day Saints, the Bible is the first book of Scripture
Welcome to the forums, and thank you for your clear and accurate information regarding the Latter-Day Saints.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Jeffrey Visser said:
he LDS church falls outside of orthodox Christianity with their belief in polytheism rather than the traditional Christian belief in the Trinity. This is a fundamental part of Christianity and puts the LDS outside of orthodox Christianity.
Please reread the guidelines ... it is way over the line to declare another group as outside Christianity unless the group itself defines itself as non-Christian. For the entire history of Christianity there have been non-Trinitarian sects (a non-pejorative technical use of the term). I see that you recognize the guidelines but only AFTER you have defined LDS as "other". I'm not buying it..
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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Jeffrey Visser said:
It did not go from 45 to 22. One is a condensed list while the other lists each volume separately. For example, History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, vols. 1–7 contains 7 volumes. On one list it has 7 lines, on the other, one line. It is two representations of the SAME thing.
In addition to this, the only other reason why the number changed is that the Journal of Discourses is not included.
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MJ. Smith said:Jeffrey Visser said:
he LDS church falls outside of orthodox Christianity with their belief in polytheism rather than the traditional Christian belief in the Trinity. This is a fundamental part of Christianity and puts the LDS outside of orthodox Christianity.
Please reread the guidelines ... it is way over the line to declare another group as outside Christianity unless the group itself defines itself as non-Christian. For the entire history of Christianity there have been non-Trinitarian sects (a non-pejorative technical use of the term). I see that you recognize the guidelines but only AFTER you have defined LDS as "other". I'm not buying it..
I did use the phrase "puts the LDS outside of orthodox Christianity," which I do believe most LDS followers would agree with.
Just so I understand, There is no minimum set of beliefs here that define a group as Christian, correct. If someone defined themselves as Christian, they are to be defined as Christian. I did go back and read the guidelines and didn't find that one there, but if that is how it is, I will follow it.
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Jeffrey Visser said:
If someone defined themselves as Christian, they are to be defined as Christian.
Yes, basic living room behavior - you don't insult someone by saying they don't belong in a group they know they do belong to. Otherwise known as avoid controversial subjects - directly contradicting someone's self-identity is clearly controversial and demeaning.
Orthodox Bishop Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."; Orthodox proverb: "We know where the Church is, we do not know where it is not."
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0552.CommunityServer.Discussions.Components.Files_77_0383.Mormon Studies UPDATED.xlsx
Ronald Quick said:Jeffrey Visser said:It did not go from 45 to 22. One is a condensed list while the other lists each volume separately. For example, History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, vols. 1–7 contains 7 volumes. On one list it has 7 lines, on the other, one line. It is two representations of the SAME thing.
In addition to this, the only other reason why the number changed is that the Journal of Discourses is not included.
I stand corrected. I have attached the list in the same order and that is the only thing missing.
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"I am not looking for a long discussion/argument on this. Just a quick question."
It doesn't matter. What you're looking for is outside the scope of the forum and would inevitably lead to argument. I speak from long and weary experience. But call Mormons polytheists in our presence, and you lose credibility instantly as someone who has any real familiarity or understanding.
"The whole modern world has divided itself into Conservatives and Progressives. The business of Progressives is to go on making mistakes. The business of Conservatives is to prevent mistakes from being corrected."- G.K. Chesterton
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